Important info re: iron-on veneer with Titebond glues

[DancesWithBeers]

Although I couldn't find this information anywhere else, Titebond does have guidelines for using the iron-on method with their glues. They've (Franklin International) agreed to let me post their instructions for using this method. There is information about the reactivation time line and differences in the required temperature, per product, for reactivation:

http://www.webherrera.com/blog/2009/04/19/titebonds-franklin-internationals-iron-on-instructions/9

Hope this helps.

DWB

[Jed]

Good info. Thanks. I might try the white glue. I've been using the Heat Lock with really good results but I wonder if some of the Titebond varieties might be as good at a fraction of the price.

[JonP]

I've used the plain Titebond, and the Titebond II. Both worked pretty much equally. Hmmm, lets see... I used a cloths iron turned up not quite all the way up, cotton not linen, IIRC. Old cotton T-shirt over the iron to give a little scortching buffer. Never worried about time, generally painted it on both surfaces, usually adding another layer on at least one surface and used when dry. Never waited more than overnight, I think.

Have taken to using a hand held block of MDF to follow the iron, to continue pressure and draw heat off faster. Seems to improve the joint quality a fair amount. Got that idea indirectly from Jon Marsh... from someone else quoting him. Gave the impression he uses a hot iron and a cool iron to do the pressing on large surfaces.

I can just picture his Doc avatar, wildly waving irons in each fist.... "if my calcuations are correct, when this iron reaches 288deg, you're going to see some serious s#iT!!" :rofl:

[john trials]

Thanks for posting this. This is good info...I'll be trying veneering for the first time in the near future. This info is very helpful.

[Jim Holtz]

Great information! Thanks for posting it!

Jim

[Undefinition]

Aw man...

Well, that could explain why my most recent veneering project did some major peeling.

I used Titebond I (I think), and rollered it onto both surfaces. Then I didn't get back to the project for like two weeks to iron on the veneer. I was told there was practically an indefinite "reactivation time frame," but maybe not.

[ThomasW]

From our FAQ/Reference threads section

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=172379&postcount=189

[JonMarsh]

I've used the plain Titebond, and the Titebond II. Both worked pretty much equally. Hmmm, lets see... I used a cloths iron turned up not quite all the way up, cotton not linen, IIRC. Old cotton T-shirt over the iron to give a little scortching buffer. Never worried about time, generally painted it on both surfaces, usually adding another layer on at least one surface and used when dry. Never waited more than overnight, I think.

Have taken to using a hand held block of MDF to follow the iron, to continue pressure and draw heat off faster. Seems to improve the joint quality a fair amount. Got that idea indirectly from Jon Marsh... from someone else quoting him. Gave the impression he uses a hot iron and a cool iron to do the pressing on large surfaces.

I can just picture his Doc avatar, wildly waving irons in each fist.... "if my calcuations are correct, when this iron reaches 288deg, you're going to see some serious s#iT!!" :rofl:

Procedure works exactly like that, except with use of a veneer roller thrown in- the black one works best for flux capacitor equipped Avalon Klones. :B

[john trials]

Well, that could explain why my most recent veneering project did some major peeling.

I used Titebond I (I think), and rollered it onto both surfaces. Then I didn't get back to the project for like two weeks to iron on the veneer. I was told there was practically an indefinite "reactivation time frame," but maybe not.

I questioned www.oakwoodveneer.com about the optimum length of dry time for the glue (which was about the only detail missing in their instructions). They said about 20 minutes, or until the tackiness is gone from the glue. It probably differs a bit depending on the glue used, and the humidity.

[Hank]

"Procedure works exactly like that, except with use of a veneer roller thrown in- the black one works best for flux capacitor equipped Avalon Klones."
Although I usually use contact cement I will vouch for using a good roller. Don't buy the wood handle thing with the plastic blade. I tried one a couple years ago and broke it an about .023 seconds. I use a roller on small cabinets and for large towers, I use an oak board with an edge sanded smooth. I straddle the cabinet (don't go there re the mental image ;-)) and hold the oak board with both hands, leaning into it to apply most of my weight on that smooth board edge to apply lots of psi. Works fine.

[stangbat]

I was probably getting close to or a little past the 12 hour window when using Titebond II, so I don't know if my experience is a completely valid comparison between the glues. But what you posted kind of backs up my experience. I found Titebond I to be easier to use and that it stuck easier. I had to go over some areas again and use longer contact time with the iron when using II. However, my speakers that I used Titebond II on are still holding up just fine.

[DancesWithBeers]

From our FAQ/Reference threads section

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpos...&postcount=189

Yeah, I had seen that info before posting this, but the lack of information about the activation window and temperature differences needed could have resulted in some failures.

[Paul Ebert]

Procedure works exactly like that, except with use of a veneer roller thrown in- the black one works best for flux capacitor equipped Avalon Klones. :B

In that case (assuming my Trilliums are deemed so equipped), I'll add one to my veneering tool shopping list, along with one of these for trimming the overhang:

Lee Valley Flush Plane

I have to admit that, after all the work that's gone into them, I'm quite intimidated by the veneering I'll need to do to finish up the Trilliums. This information helps ease that trepidation. Thanks, DWB!

[Dennis H]

I have to admit that, after all the work that's gone into them, I'm quite intimidated by the veneering I'll need to do to finish up the Trilliums.

You've got some beautiful speakers there, Paul, so just practice veneering on some scraps until you've got it down. It'll only take you an afternoon to become an 'expert.'

PS: I'd be careful with the plane. Depending on which direction you run it, it could split out the grain. Run it so the grain is pointed from in to out as you advance. A regular old block plane is probably safer.

[JonMarsh]

"Procedure works exactly like that, except with use of a veneer roller thrown in- the black one works best for flux capacitor equipped Avalon Klones."
Although I usually use contact cement I will vouch for using a good roller. Don't buy the wood handle thing with the plastic blade. I tried one a couple years ago and broke it an about .023 seconds. I use a roller on small cabinets and for large towers, I use an oak board with an edge sanded smooth. I straddle the cabinet (don't go there re the mental image ;-)) and hold the oak board with both hands, leaning into it to apply most of my weight on that smooth board edge to apply lots of psi. Works fine.

The edge of the board? with a roundover routed on it? That's something I've been considering trying for large surfaces.

[JonMarsh]

In that case (assuming my Trilliums are deemed so equipped), I'll add one to my veneering tool shopping list, along with one of these for trimming the overhang:

Lee Valley Flush Plane

I have to admit that, after all the work that's gone into them, I'm quite intimidated by the veneering I'll need to do to finish up the Trilliums. This information helps ease that trepidation. Thanks, DWB!

A few hints - do the facets first, then the big pieces.

Check out the "Building Masterpieces" video at the Avalon site, should give you some ideas. They show some veneer trimming.

Have you bought your veneer already? I recommend cellulose backed, or double layer, to avoid cracking at joints with time and movement of the cabinet.

[Dennis H]

The edge of the board? with a roundover routed on it? That's something I've been considering trying for large surfaces.

Not even that big. Just sand the edge smooth (maybe a 1/16" radius) so it doesn't scratch the veneer. It's all about PSI so a smaller radius needs less elbow grease (pressure).

[Paul Ebert]

You've got some beautiful speakers there, Paul, so just practice veneering on some scraps until you've got it down. It'll only take you an afternoon to become an 'expert.'

PS: I'd be careful with the plane. Depending on which direction you run it, it could split out the grain. Run it so the grain is pointed from in to out as you advance. A regular old block plane is probably safer.

Thanks, Dennis! I will definitely be practicing - even if it means buying more veneer to practice with. I've done a fair amount of handplaning, so I'm familiar with the need to watch the grain and the problems that planes without a mouth can have. I was intending to use a veneer saw, but I was informed by Undefinition that this particular wood backed veneer eats veneer saws for lunch (we purchased the veneer from the same source, though his is anigre and mine birdseye maple). Perhaps a utility knife and a good straightedge are best.

[JonMarsh]

Perhaps a utility knife and a good straightedge are best.

Yes. Definitely, in my experience. Limited as it is...

[Dennis H]

I was intending to use a veneer saw, but I was informed by Undefinition that this particular wood backed veneer eats veneer saws for lunch (we purchased the veneer from the same source, though his is anigre and mine birdseye maple). Perhaps a utility knife and a good straightedge are best.

I'd still try the veneer saw on maple. It generally cuts/machines quite well (unless they mixed sand in their glue. ) Several light strokes are the trick -- don't force it. Put a piece of tape on the surface you're running the saw along so it doesn't scratch and leaves the trimmed edge a bit strong. Then sand it flush.

[Paul Ebert]

A few hints - do the facets first, then the big pieces.

Check out the "Building Masterpieces" video at the Avalon site, should give you some ideas. They show some veneer trimming.

Have you bought your veneer already? I recommend cellulose backed, or double layer, to avoid cracking at joints with time and movement of the cabinet.

I have purchased the veneer already. It's wood backed and very thick. I'd guess about 3/32". I imagine that a fairly visible line is going to be unavoidable. For this reason, I'd planned to start with the back and work toward the front so the lines would 'point towards the back', at least. I wonder if I could make some sort of 135 degree guide or something so the facets were mitered. Probably expecting too much to be able to do that well.

I'll check out the video.

[DancesWithBeers]

Check out the "Building Masterpieces" video at the Avalon site, should give you some ideas. They show some veneer trimming.

JonMarsh, do you have a link to that site or video?

Thanks,

DWB

[ColoradoTom]

Yes. Definitely, in my experience. Limited as it is...

A utility knife blade is pretty big... try a knife with a "break-away" blade and you'll notice that the blade is thinner and will cut closer to the straight-edge with less effort and more accuracy. YMMV.

Tom

[ColoradoTom]

JonMarsh, do you have a link to that site or video?

Thanks,

DWB

http://avalonacoustics.com/

Click on the "Tour our factory" on the right hand side of the page......

Tom

[JonMarsh]

JonMarsh, do you have a link to that site or video?

Thanks,

DWB

Avalon Acoustics

There site is basically one huge flash project, so there aren't separate links to give.

Enter the site, use the menu on the upper right to navigate to company info, then select the button on the right below Introduction labelled "How to Create a Masterpiece". The flash video will start playing.

[ColoradoTom]

http://avalonacoustics.com/

Click on the "Tour our factory" on the right hand side of the page......

Tom

Whoops... need to click on "Company Info" first...

Tom

[JonP]

Procedure works exactly like that, except with use of a veneer roller thrown in- the black one works best for flux capacitor equipped Avalon Klones. :B

OK, since I have you here... do you actually use a hot and cold iron? Or the roller instead of the cold iron? Or, do you have three arms? :B

I found the overall idea to work pretty well, i.e. following after the iron with a hand held MDF block, supplying pressure while soaking the heat out. Thing is, an hand held block gets pretty warm, pretty fast. I'd keep turning it, but then the hot side's against your hand. It slowed things down a bit. Next time I'll have more hand blocks on, uh, hand.

Was sort of a problem with a 3/4 cu ft box. Scaling up to an Avalon sized thing, a bigger heat sink with a handle is probably an idea, if it doesn't cool too fast.

I've always pictured this technique as "remelting" the glue, that it works like hotmelt after it dries the first time.

[JonMarsh]

Jon, I use the hot and cold irons, but following up immediately with the roller- actually, last time doing that I had my daughter helping out. Maybe next time I can con her new boyfriend... who knows?

Yeah, remelting the glue is a way of looking at it - I've never left it sitting around very long, and I use a Cleret T-Square squeegee for spreading the glue as uniformly as possible. I got it at a local grocery store, Albertson's, which doesn't exist anymore, and the chain that bought them out doesn't carry it, but you can order them online inexpensively.



As inexpensive as they are, you can almost treat them like disposables; $4 each. But I've been holding on to mine... need to order some online some day. Make that, did order some online just now! :W
Tried another brand and it was harder to use, not as consistent.

[PMazz]

I've done projects using this method that are still going strong after 15 years or so. I find the 10 mil paper backed veneer will leave adjoining edges that are almost invisible. The thicker varieties invariably leave a conspicuous edge. A slight radius on the edge of an MDF block is all that's needed to apply pressure after ironing, although I use a veneer scraper that I've had for more years than I care to mention. :

Pete

[Hank]

[QUOTE]The edge of the board? with a roundover routed on it? That's something I've been considering trying for large surfaces.
I use my roller on the 3/4" radius roundover edges. A 1 x 3 or so oak board with edge(s) sanded smooth that is wider than your cabinet's width and depth: just straddle the cabinet, holding the board ends beyond the cabinet width/depth, lean into it - you'll get much greater psi on the veneer than with a roller, IMO.

[JonMarsh]

Thanks, Hank. Perhaps with a 1/4" roundover?

These aren't theoretical questions- there's a project or two in the works, and time off in May and June. :W Just a little "baby" speaker in your terms (i.e., under 4 feet tall), but requires custom cabinetry.

[Paul Ebert]

These aren't theoretical questions- there's a project or two in the works, and time off in May and June. :W Just a little "baby" speaker in your terms (i.e., under 4 feet tall), but requires custom cabinetry.

Will it have a flux capacitor?

[JonMarsh]

Well, naturally, sourced from Jantzen- they make pretty good sounding caps you know!




I'm a bit of a believer after the NeoD CC's and trying some various caps, including film and foil, against these in the signal path. For LF and bypass, Jantzen CrossCaps and many others are OK.

For the rest who are sure caps make no difference in sonics, just ignore this post.

These aren't the posts you want to read, move along now....

[maynardg]

What do regard as signal path, Jon? I've seen different opinions on something that should not be opinion I wouldn't think.

[ThomasW]

What do regard as signal path, Jon? I've seen different opinions on something that should not be opinion I wouldn't think.

Kindly take that question elsewhere. This is a thread about veneering and it should stay on topic..

[JonP]

Jon, I use the hot and cold irons, but following up immediately with the roller- actually, last time doing that I had my daughter helping out. Maybe next time I can con her new boyfriend... who knows?

Yeah, remelting the glue is a way of looking at it - I've never left it sitting around very long, and I use a Cleret T-Square squeegee for spreading the glue as uniformly as possible. I got it at a local grocery store, Albertson's, which doesn't exist anymore, and the chain that bought them out doesn't carry it, but you can order them online inexpensively.

As inexpensive as they are, you can almost treat them like disposables; $4 each. But I've been holding on to mine... need to order some online some day. Make that, did order some online just now! :W
Tried another brand and it was harder to use, not as consistent.

Ah... that reminds me of a suggestion I got from a Rockler guy.. Get a medium toothed (24tpi?) hacksaw blade, and use it as a glue spreader... The tooth depth leaves behind just about the right amount of glue, and spreads very evenly... comes out in stripes, but they flow out pretty well. I tried it on the Modula MT's I did a few years back, which I built out of the $5 offcut 5/8" Baltic (Chinese?) Birch panels from the aformentioned Rockler.

I was laminating two sheets for a 1.2" baffle and the discussion was about how to get enough but not too much glue. Applies nicely to veneering glue application as well... In my limited veneering experience, all my problems seem to be associated with not enough glue, though I imagine one can get too much.

Yeah, a block or an iron applies pressure over a larger surface, but the other thing is that it cools the surface faster. I have no clue how quickly the glue sets up as it cools, would be worth an experiment to know if it takes several minutes of time, or gets hard in tens of seconds. Could figure out if a block or roller following right after the iron, or a roller or rounded point edge several minutes later is the best. From common practices that seem to work very well, it's probably more a long, slow resolidification rather than a abrupt freeze.

[PMazz]

I still use a foam roller cover. Costs a buck and it's easier to control, especially near the edges. Use a squeegee (we use scraps of laminate) but be careful near veneered edges! It's easy to pull a puddle of glue over an edge.

Hey Jon, glad you're back in the saddle! :T


Pete