How deep can the statements center play?

[06'goat]

I am going to be building a statements center and down the road some matching towers. My question is on the center channel should i use a 40, 60 or 80hz crossover point for it? I hear it plays deep bass but I like loud music and was wondering how low I can go with the crossover without it distorting?

[Jim Holtz]

I am going to be building a statements center and down the road some matching towers. My question is on the center channel should i use a 40, 60 or 80hz crossover point for it? I hear it plays deep bass but I like loud music and was wondering how low I can go with the crossover without it distorting?

The Statements center has a F3 of around 40 Hz. and a maximum SPL of around 110 db. If you need more SPL, Jed's version of the center is larger and uses (2) RS225's in a sealed configuration and no open back on the mids. It should have a F3 of around 50 Hz. but a maximum SPL of around 115 DB.

Regardless, I'd suggest you use the 40 Hz. crossover on your processor/receiver or better yet, run it full range. If you don't like it you can always change it.

Jim

[06'goat]

So it can play at 110db crossed at 40hz without distortion?

[Jim Holtz]

So it can play at 110db crossed at 40hz without distortion?

I've not played it that high nor will I. You're into serious ear damage at that SPL. The 110 DB maximum I listed is based on Unibox and the drivers maximum SPL with highest rated power input and linear xmax.

Crossing at 40 Hz, 60 Hz. or 80 Hz. won't have a big impact since the woofers are not beyond their excursion limits at those crossover points. However, playing 110 DB will affect the single mid driver.

EDIT: I just took a quick peek at Unibox and the woofers do reach their rated excursion maximum at 91 DB/110 SPL. If you want something that goes louder and deeper, you'll have to look elsewhere.

I honestly don't know of any speakers other than line arrays that will go much if any louder with any grace at all. My question to you is, why do you want to play that loud? You're in an area that will risk damaging your speakers and ears. :roll:

Jim

[06'goat]

Well honestly I won't be playing them at 110db I am just making sure the woofers can handle the bass crossed at 40hz at high levels. My receiver goes from 0 to 90 for volume level and i never go past 55. I like loud music but i highly doubt i will go to 110db. I just don't want to distort the speakers if it can't handle 40hz at a loud volume. I have a great sub so not sure if i even need to cross them as low as 40hz.

[---k---]

Probably a question for Curt, but is the max SPL governed by the woofers or the ribbon?

[Curt C]

Unless your HT room is extremely large, I don’t believe the center channel will have issues providing any sane SPL even run full range on music.

HT sources may be another story as there may be much more spectral content below the tuning frequency of the woofers.

Since you have that great sub, use it to your best advantage: The distortion products from the center channel woofers will be ameliorated if you use the receiver’s high pass filter to limit their excursion. 40 Hz should be sufficient to keep the cones from excessive excursion below fv, but certainly it won’t hurt to try 60 Hz as well.

C

[Jim Holtz]

Well honestly I won't be playing them at 110db I am just making sure the woofers can handle the bass crossed at 40hz at high levels. My receiver goes from 0 to 90 for volume level and i never go past 55. I like loud music but i highly doubt i will go to 110db. I just don't want to distort the speakers if it can't handle 40hz at a loud volume. I have a great sub so not sure if i even need to cross them as low as 40hz.

I did a little further investigation and per Unibox, expect linear output to 95 DB at 40 Hz. and 105 DB at 60 Hz. Note that I said linear, not a maximum possible output which would be governed by total xmax rather than rated xmax. Honestly, I run my center full range and always have with previous designs. I listen to movies with the vocals around 85-90 DB sitting 15' back from the speakers in a 15'x20' room, which means peaks are easily reaching 105-110 DB or so with out issue or distortion. I've never bottomed a woofer out. I can't say the same about subs but never a woofer in a main/center channel speaker.

EDIT: Ya! What Curt said.

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

Probably a question for Curt, but is the max SPL governed by the woofers or the ribbon?

Hi Ryan,

It looks like Curt missed your question. The answer is it depends. The woofers would be normally but 110 DB is pushing the heck out of a single W4-1337SA too at higher frequencies. However, the ribbon will easily handle much higher SPL's.

There was a gentleman that posted a while back that he'd damaged the ribbon element ($20 repair at Madisound) after cranking the Statements up to 117 DB, 20 feet back and in a very large basement. They still played but were distorting.

The ribbons can be damaged but you will have to work at it.

Jim

[AJINFLA]

I've not played it that high nor will I. You're into serious ear damage at that SPL.

No Jim, listening at those average levels, sustained, is unhealthy. Peaks can be (listened) that high and higher, totally safe. It all depends on the duration. I believe it was Tom Danley who measured dropping his keys onto a concrete floor at 130db. I think a car door slamming might have been higher. You could do that all day with no ill effects.

The 110 DB maximum I listed is based on Unibox and the drivers maximum SPL with highest rated power input and linear xmax.
Crossing at 40 Hz, 60 Hz. or 80 Hz. won't have a big impact since the woofers are not beyond their excursion limits at those crossover points. However, playing 110 DB will affect the single mid driver.

EDIT: I just took a quick peek at Unibox and the woofers do reach their rated excursion maximum at 91 DB/110 SPL. If you want something that goes louder and deeper, you'll have to look elsewhere.

I couldn't find the center design, but if it uses the same drivers as the mains, it will be generating significant levels of non-linearities at 110db (1m). And yes, that would be audible...if one knows what to listen for. Perhaps the easiest way to hear it would be to (A/B) switch to a speaker with more linear behavior at those levels.

I honestly don't know of any speakers other than line arrays that will go much if any louder with any grace at all.

Then you should have made the trip to Lexington, to hear a design that is barely above idle at those levels...and not a line array. Actually occupying less spatial volume than your/Curt's design.

My question to you is, why do you want to play that loud? You're in an area that will risk damaging your speakers and ears. :roll:
Jim

If it's average or he listens mainly to pop/Britney Spears type dynamic range/compressed music, I agree. If you/he listens to classical, jazz, etc., then perhaps you need to hear a system that is linear and with low to no compression at those (peak) levels to understand why.
One of the things I like about Soundstage speaker measurements is their deviation from linearity data at a modest 95db. Here is a typical 7" 2 way cone 'n dome box affair (using what some would consider "good" drivers)

If one thinks that those 1-2 db deviations are not very audible, one would be quite mistaken. We (humans) can hear changes lower than that.
Food for thought.
Btw, I won't be able to attend DIY Iowa (I would have liked to). Are there any FL Statement owners that might be willing to allow me to hear them?

cheers,

AJ

[06'goat]

Thanks for the replies guys. I never bottom out my subwoofer so i doubt i will bottom out the center.

[AJINFLA]

There was a gentleman that posted a while back that he'd damaged the ribbon element ($20 repair at Madisound) after cranking the Statements up to 117 DB, 20 feet back and in a very large basement.
Jim

I would like to see how those measurements were obtained. Is there a link?

cheers,

AJ

[Dennis H]

There was a gentleman that posted a while back that he'd damaged the ribbon element ($20 repair at Madisound) after cranking the Statements up to 117 DB, 20 feet back and in a very large basement. They still played but were distorting.

That's pretty loud. 117dB at 6m (20 ft) is 132dB at 1m.

[Jim Holtz]

Ok guys, I went back and found the thread so I could "clean up" any remarks I made that weren't spot on. I know you two.

HERE is the thread. It was 118 DB but I'm not sure where I came up with 20 feet. He said at his listening position whatever that is. I was working from memory (a bad thing to do at my age) and I had 20 feet stuck in my head. Anyway, read the thread for more info.

BTW, AJ, post your design with pictures so we can see it. I remember Jim Griffin making some complimentary remarks about your speakers. That's a good recommendation in my book.

Jim

[AJINFLA]

117dB at 6m (20 ft) is 132dB at 1m.

Yes Dennis, that's what I saw with propagation loss too.
My system above might get near 130db (1m) with a 3.2 kW IEC3 burst power input (combined both Ch above 200hz) and survive, but it has 9.5" of VC to thermally dissipate the energy.

That's pretty loud.

Improbably (Impossibly?) so?

cheers,

AJ

[AJINFLA]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the link. It's not clear how that gentleman came up with that figure. I have some doubts about it's accuracy.
Curt seems to be overlooking compression in his analysis, which appear to be based on simple calculations. Or perhaps he wanted to keep it simple. But error creeps in that way. See my Soundstage link. Real transducer behavior is slightly more complex.
Btw, I think if 06 GTO hi-passes at 60-80 hz with a sufficiently steep lo-pass, he'll be fine.
I don't have any pictures, but I believe one was (I forgot who took it) posted in that thread you read. It's just some monstrosity I cobbled together Mon-Thu after work during the week before Lexington. Not to much thought or effort went into it (you may find this amusing, but I did not listen to it. Just sims and measurements). Luckily Dan N didn't bring his Omni. His finishing work would have made it embarrassing to have them together in the same room. Speaking of room, I was mortified to find prior to the event that it was actually a (TV) studio, huge and heavily damped. Not good for demonstrating the (in room) spatial and modal performance of that type design. I'm surprised that Jim G thought they sounded decent (luckily I couldn't hear them [for the first time ] well sitting between them at the CD player, which, in the year 2008, had no remote :E :B ). Perhaps the environment helped to mask deficiencies, dunno. Or maybe Jim has an anechoic chamber at home :lol: .
Don't make Mr Lazy search now, any FL Statement builders?

cheers,

AJ

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the link. It's not clear how that gentleman came up with that figure. I have some doubts about it's accuracy.
Curt seems to be overlooking compression in his analysis, which appear to be based on simple calculations. Or perhaps he wanted to keep it simple. But error creeps in that way. See my Soundstage link. Real transducer behavior is slightly more complex.

I don't have any pictures, but I believe one was (I forgot who took it) posted in that thread you read. It's just some monstrosity I cobbled together Mon-Thu after work during the week before Lexington. Not to much thought or effort went into it (you may find this amusing, but I did not listen to it. Just sims and measurements).


Don't make Mr Lazy search now, any FL Statement builders?

cheers,

AJ

AJ!!! I'm shocked! Sims??? :rofl: Sorry, I couldn't pass that one up.

Curt tends to be more precise than I but my remarks are just based on Unibox which doesn't account for baffle step or anything else. I'm just trying to set some kind of realistic maximum expectation for potential builders. The Statements projects were designed to get the best sound possible out of the driver combination selected when played at normal volumes. I don't have a desire to try and recreate concert levels.

I'm not sure how many Statements are in Florida but I do know Sefferdog (Wade) has built the statements, Mini's and the Center channel. I'm not sure if he ever built the Monitors. Send Wade a PM. I suspect he'd be happy to demo them for you if you're anywhere close to Ocala.

Jim

[Curt C]

I like to keep it simple, AJ
Without having access to a Kippel analyzer, or a duplication of NRC’s facilities in my backyard, I do make some assumptions based on modeled responses. An increase in Re and the inductor DCR are included, for instance, so some amount of large signal behavior change is reflected, but certainly not all. -Nor is amplitude distortion the only type of distortion we should be concerned with, not that we can do much about any of them once a particular driver combination is chosen for the design.

IMO, the max SPL of a given design is a somewhat soft number, dependent on the spectral content of the source material and its crest factor. Also, prior to the onset of hard limiting (Bl reduction) in the large signal domain, HD and IMD both increase proportionally with cone excursion. It’s possible for these other nonlinearities to generate unacceptable levels of distortion prior to the onset of compression distortion. Motor design will of course have a significant bearing on the amount and types of distortion, as well as the criteria used to determine Xmax. On the upside, we are less able to perceive distortion at bass frequencies, so it’s not as bad as it might be…

Utilization of multiple drivers will generally result in a substantial reduction in non-linear distortion over a single driver, as potentially will a driver with greater Sd, all else being equal. –No big surprise here, but I thought I’d mention it as an excuse to “She Who Must Be Obeyed” as to why your new speaker design must be so darn big!

I’ll also mention that while some may consider compression distortion and other large signal nonlinearities primarily as a woofer issue, it is a consideration for all drivers. However, unlike woofers, where we generally are forced to utilize them in the compliance controlled region, excursion nonlinearities, and to some extent, thermally induced nonlinearities for midrange drivers and tweeters can be ameliorated with the judicious choice of crossover frequencies and transfer functions. HD and IMD distortion are probably much more objectionable at these frequencies than amplitude distortion.

C

[AJINFLA]

AJ!!! I'm shocked! Sims??? :rofl: Sorry, I couldn't pass that one up.

:scratchhead: Why would that be shocking?

I'm just trying to set some kind of realistic maximum expectation for potential builders. The Statements projects were designed to get the best sound possible out of the driver combination selected when played at normal volumes.

Well, I just saw numbers that I thought were far from realistic. Not sure what "normal" volume is. I understand averaged and peak SPL. I also understand that much modern music is highly compressed, but not all of it.
I'm sure the Statements sound just fine to builders when kept within their limits.

I don't have a desire to try and recreate concert levels.

Nor do I, but then I don't normally refer to a quartet or ensemble as a "concert". Just like the dropped keys example, sometime realism depends on peak, rather than averaged capability. This isn't necessarily to do with recreating concert levels, though it could. Have you ever listened to acoustic instrument music, with the Statements side by side, at "normal" levels, with speakers that won't begin to compress until much higher levels?

I'm not sure how many Statements are in Florida but I do know Sefferdog (Wade) has built the statements, Mini's and the Center channel. I'm not sure if he ever built the Monitors. Send Wade a PM. I suspect he'd be happy to demo them for you if you're anywhere close to Ocala.

Jim

Cool, I just may do that. Ocala isn't too far.

I like to keep it simple, AJ
Without having access to a Kippel analyzer

I don't see the need for Klippel analysis, to state your SPL estimates as calculated maximums, with the caveat that this is without compression factored in.

or a duplication of NRC’s facilities in my backyard

One needs the NRC to do a FR overlay at 90 and 96 db with a sufficiently expanded vertical scale?

I do make some assumptions based on modeled responses.

Don't we all :W . I not trying to be critical of the design that so many have built. I simply saw some numbers (as did Dennis) that seemed a bit unrealistic. I would consider that to be constructive, if construed as criticism .

cheers,

AJ