Troels Ellam 25

[Rolex]

Does anyone have any experience with this design?

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Ellam25.htm

It looks like it would be a really fun speaker and should work well with smallish rooms. I'd love some opinions. Although I have built a number of speakers, the crossover design and graphs don't mean much to me.

Thanks!

[TacoD]

Design looks solid to me. You'll surprised what 2x 15W can deliver, but I keep repeating myself you have to like the Scanspeak timbre. It is imho also not as dynamic sounding as the hard cones.

The match with the Vifa is great (made 2-way systems with 15W/XT and 18W/XT)

[chris-torb]

Does anyone have any experience with this design?

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Ellam25.htm

It looks like it would be a really fun speaker and should work well with smallish rooms. I'd love some opinions. Although I have built a number of speakers, the crossover design and graphs don't mean much to me.

Thanks!

Hey Rolex.

Do try it...!!
It's a great speaker, and not too hard too build.
The midrange is superb, and the bass is massive and fast. The XT tweeter does the job spectacular and matches the SS15W really well.

Dont be fooled by the relative small cabinet.. It delivers!!

Happy building..

Torben.

[tktran]

I have used the hard-cones, in the form of L18RNX/P (John Krutke All Metal Seas 2-way) and Excel W18-E001 (Jim Mitchell's MTM). The Excels are great but I will think the ScanSpeak carbon fibre impregnated paper woofers sounds more musical, with more material.

I'll try the Revelators one day, as soon as the Aussie dollar recovers... :-)

[TacoD]

I find the "old" ScanSpeak carbon & kevlar (8546) cones more dynamic than the Revelator versions. Though the resolution is better for the revelators.

[chris-torb]

I find the "old" ScanSpeak carbon & kevlar (8546) cones more dynamic than the Revelator versions. Though the resolution is better for the revelators.

I haven't much experience with the old Scanspeak.
I find the sound from the Revelator series, very balanced - espcially the coatet versions.. And when you do the messuring without filter, the frequency allmost "straight line" hits 10KHz.. Not many 5½" can do this. Adding the extended bas capability.... I think this speaker unit, is near perfect. :-)

I hope that some of you, consider building the Ellam25.
I am a little proud off the final design. Espcially the "front piece" works wery well, with the rest of the cabinet- I think..

Torben

[Rolex]

do you have any pics of your build?

I haven't much experience with the old Scanspeak.
I find the sound from the Revelator series, very balanced - espcially the coatet versions.. And when you do the messuring without filter, the frequency allmost "straight line" hits 10KHz.. Not many 5½" can do this. Adding the extended bas capability.... I think this speaker unit, is near perfect. :-)

I hope that some of you, consider building the Ellam25.
I am a little proud off the final design. Espcially the "front piece" works wery well, with the rest of the cabinet- I think..

Torben

[chris-torb]

do you have any pics of your build?

Hey Rolex..

You can see pictures here ..

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Ellam25.htm

And here...

http://www.hifi4all.dk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=72079&PN=1

The building process is a little more detailed.. The text is in Danish, but the pictures is universial

If you need some translation, just let me know..





Torben

[Rolex]

Hi Torben. I didn't realize that the photos on Troels site were of your speakers. Very impressive.. Did you work in conjunction with troels for this design? I'd love a little more input on this design, the danish site doesn't tell me much, but the pictures are cool!!

Can you comment a little on the bottom end with this design? It doesn't strike me as a design that would have boomy bass, but tighter and more refined?

Thanks!

[Dennis H]

Google translate seems to work okay for the Danish forum if you scroll to the bottom and click the next page link. If you try to jump to page X with the drop down list, it doesn't translate.

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hifi4all.dk%2Fforum%2Fforum_posts.asp%3FTID%3D72079%26PN%3D1&sl=da&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

[chris-torb]

Hi Torben. I didn't realize that the photos on Troels site were of your speakers. Very impressive.. Did you work in conjunction with troels for this design? I'd love a little more input on this design, the danish site doesn't tell me much, but the pictures are cool!!

Can you comment a little on the bottom end with this design? It doesn't strike me as a design that would have boomy bass, but tighter and more refined?

Thanks!

Hi Rolex

The cabinet, design, and the filter/crossover assembly is mine, and Mr. Gravesen made the crossover and simulations.
He is incredible talentet og very perfectionistic. It's amazing to watch him work.
The bass from this speaker is very dry and fast, and not at all "boomy" and yet still "massive" ....Of course the lowest deep bass is lacking, as the speaker is tuned at 40 Hz..But I am still VERY amazed/impressed, how much bass can come from 2 x 5½" Scanspeak units.
The most amazing, I think, is the midrange.. Exceptional open and clear. By far the best I've ever heard.
Sorry my English Is not the best... It's been 20 years since I've attended school

Torben

[Rolex]

Hi Rolex

The cabinet, design, and the filter/crossover assembly is mine, and Mr. Gravesen made the crossover and simulations.
He is incredible talentet og very perfectionistic. It's amazing to watch him work.
The bass from this speaker is very dry and fast, and not at all "boomy" and yet still "massive" ....Of course the lowest deep bass is lacking, as the speaker is tuned at 40 Hz..But I am still VERY amazed/impressed, how much bass can come from 2 x 5½" Scanspeak units.
The most amazing, I think, is the midrange.. Exceptional open and clear. By far the best I've ever heard.
Sorry my English Is not the best... It's been 20 years since I've attended school

Torben

Thanks for the reply. I had a feeling the bass from this design was going to be very good. I'm happy to hear that the midrange is exceptional (the most important characteristic for me). I'm very seriously considering this speaker as my next build.

[eyekode]

Hey Rolex..

You can see pictures here ..

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Ellam25.htm

And here...

http://www.hifi4all.dk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=72079&PN=1

The building process is a little more detailed.. The text is in Danish, but the pictures is universial

If you need some translation, just let me know..

Torben

Torben, I like that gentle arc you put on the bottom of the front baffle. How did you do that? Did you use a really large circle jig and then go back over it with a 45degree chamfer bit?
Thanks!
Salem

[chris-torb]

Torben, I like that gentle arc you put on the bottom of the front baffle. How did you do that? Did you use a really large circle jig and then go back over it with a 45degree chamfer bit?
Thanks!
Salem

Hi Salem..

Yes, you are right. :-)
A large circle jig with center in the middle off tweeter placing(same center placing i've uset routing for the tweeter).

You may have to make some test cuts, until it is perfect, but it was not problematic at all.

Torben

[chris-torb]

Ellam25

I know that "diy's" don't spend a lot of time in the woodshop in the summertime... I know i don't.. 8)

Anyway... I'm very curious to know, if anyone is planning on building this speaker??

Have a nice summer...


Chris-torb

[Ton]

Goodevening, I am new on this forum. I am planning to bild the Ellam 25 as well. But looking at the pictures from chris-torb I am a little confused.

In the specification of the crossover from Troelsgravesen there are 4 resistors for one speaker. In the pictures I see only two. Is that correct??
I hope one do not mind asking, but this is my first bild and I do want to do it right the first time.

Thank you very much for any reply

[welly192]

Ellam 2.5's

We built several of Troels designs and the Ellam 25's were our favorites!
We liked them so much we built another set in granite. Here are the two finished- One in granite and the other wood. Still need to make the granite feet/bases.

More info here: http://www.sdboats.com/images/speakers.htm

[chris-torb]

Goodevening, I am new on this forum. I am planning to bild the Ellam 25 as well. But looking at the pictures from chris-torb I am a little confused.

In the specification of the crossover from Troelsgravesen there are 4 resistors for one speaker. In the pictures I see only two. Is that correct??
I hope one do not mind asking, but this is my first bild and I do want to do it right the first time.

Thank you very much for any reply

Hi Ton.
The resistors you mention, is "hidden" below the 10 uF capasitors.

I had to assemble the crossover this way, because the "box" for the crossover, is limitet in size. Did not expect the Jantzen superior capasitors to be that big :-)

I am very pleased, that some of you consider building "my" speaker.
In my oppinion, this speaker is a real "value for money". Not to hard to build, and the performance is great.

chris-torb

[PMad]

Hi Chris-Thorb,

Excuse my english, is not enought good.

I´am interested in Ellam-25, and i like a lot your design.

But I have several questions that to do to you:

- What power of amplifier is necessary to move widely this loudspeaker?

- Is it necessary to give the inclination of 5 degrees to the box?
For it me would be complicated enough to realize.

- How the baffle is fixed to the box?
I have understood that was fixed with screws from the interior of the box, but is it stuck to the box?

It is quite at the moment.
Thank you in advance ¡¡

Javier
(from spain)

[Sjepr]

Hi all,

I am new here. I already knew this thread and it is nice to see that more people are interested in this speaker. At this moment I am building the Ellam25. It is quite exciting to build something I've never heard, but with these drivers and some possible adjustments, it almost can't go wrong.

I use 22 mm MDF, since 19mm is rather unusual in the Netherlands. Therfore I had to sacrifice 20 mm of crossover depth (aaahh, big caps...), 2 mm of bitumen (2mm instead of 4) and with the thicknes I use, I took the liberty of leaving out one brace. All that to come close to the 22,7 litres.

I bought the wood (one sheet 122x240) from a professional wood supplier and had it sawn by a carpenter, because I lack the equipment to saw the 5º angle.

The baffle will be made of black coloured MDF (that does come in 19mm )

Some pictures:

photo1

photo2

photo3

photo4


edit: The 2mm bitumen is called Bitumex FG2. I Also used a piece of 4mm (in the lower part). It's Self-adhesive

[blue934]

Sjepr, what brand is the peel and stick bitumen you are using? i've never come across anything like that.

david

[TacoD]

Sjepr, what brand is the peel and stick bitumen you are using? i've never come across anything like that.

david

Intertechnik sells it in Europe (most DIY shops in the Netherlands sell that brand) There are others, sometimes this stuff (2 mm version) is sold by car shops to dampen your car doors.

In the Intertechnik webshop I now can only find the panels which has 12 mm wool on top of it (http://www.intertechnik.de/Lautsprec...768,de,16,5905)

[chris-torb]

Hi Chris-Thorb,

Excuse my english, is not enought good.

I´am interested in Ellam-25, and i like a lot your design.

But I have several questions that to do to you:

- What power of amplifier is necessary to move widely this loudspeaker?

- Is it necessary to give the inclination of 5 degrees to the box?
For it me would be complicated enough to realize.

- How the baffle is fixed to the box?
I have understood that was fixed with screws from the interior of the box, but is it stuck to the box?

It is quite at the moment.
Thank you in advance ¡¡

Javier
(from spain)

Hey Javier.
Some answers for you

1.
The amp size is always a tricky question - because, how much is 1 watt?
The minimum impedance is just below 4 Ohm - not a problem for a 80W solid state amp... But give it the best you can afford.
(For some time a had them running on a Yamaha RX-V1900 surround reciever in a surround setup - It's ok, but will not do these speakes justice)

2.
The 5 degre inclination is indeed WERY important - The crossover is optimised for this angle.

3.
The baffle is fixed to the box by 8 screws from the interior into the baffel(a little tricky, but ok if you dont have very big hands)
The 15 screws that fix the speaker units, goes through the baffle and into the box. So a total off 23 screws attach the baffel to the box.

Hope that this could help you

Chris-torb

[PMad]

Hey Javier.
Some answers for you

1.
The amp size is always a tricky question - because, how much is 1 watt?
The minimum impedance is just below 4 Ohm - not a problem for a 80W solid state amp... But give it the best you can afford.
(For some time a had them running on a Yamaha RX-V1900 surround reciever in a surround setup - It's ok, but will not do these speakes justice)

2.
The 5 degre inclination is indeed WERY important - The crossover is optimised for this angle.

3.
The baffle is fixed to the box by 8 screws from the interior into the baffel(a little tricky, but ok if you dont have very big hands)
The 15 screws that fix the speaker units, goes through the baffle and into the box. So a total off 23 screws attach the baffel to the box.

Hope that this could help you

Chris-torb

Thanks, Chris

- My amplifier is a "vintage" Sondex S230, 35 W -8 ohms and 50 W-6 ohms. Perhaps has little power......., I don´t use to play very loud.

- Would it be the same if I tilt the box by the spikes?

- Then, is not necessary to seal the baffle?, similarly to the tape that is placed on the speakers, or something similar?

[Sjepr]

Hi,

Today I hooked up my Ellams 25 for the first time! I am very pleased with the sound. The bass is very fast and precise and voices are brilliant. I might want to dampen the cabinet a bit more, but I first wait for the woofers to break-in completely. Now I need to finish the cabinets and make grilles, to protect these expensive woofers against little fingers...

@ Torben: compliments on the design. It was a pleasure to build and your photos helped a lot.

Final assembly

Finished

Big caps!

[chris-torb]

Thanks, Chris

- My amplifier is a "vintage" Sondex S230, 35 W -8 ohms and 50 W-6 ohms. Perhaps has little power......., I don´t use to play very loud.

- Would it be the same if I tilt the box by the spikes?

- Then, is not necessary to seal the baffle?, similarly to the tape that is placed on the speakers, or something similar?

Hey PMad.

It's difficult to say, if the amp has enough power... You will have to give it a try.

Higher spikes in the front vill do the job..You just have to hit the 5 degre inclination. The box will be easy'er to build...I just don't like the look of a tilt'et box. But otherwise, only minor changes in the performance.

I haven't sealed between the baffel and the box. But some thin selfahedsive filt, would do fine.

Chris-torb

[chris-torb]

Hi,

Today I hooked up my Ellams 25 for the first time! I am very pleased with the sound. The bass is very fast and precise and voices are brilliant. I might want to dampen the cabinet a bit more, but I first wait for the woofers to break-in completely. Now I need to finish the cabinets and make grilles, to protect these expensive woofers against little fingers...

@ Torben: compliments on the design. It was a pleasure to build and your photos helped a lot.

Final assembly

Finished

Big caps!

Hey sjepr.

:-)
I look foreward to se the finished result. Good work :T

The 15W's has a "break-in" period, and after the bass will be a little more powerfull.

If you find the midrange a little to "upfront" and want a "warmer" sound, you could try adding a 0.3mH coil to the "L3011" series coil in the lower bas filter. (Or simply replace the L3011 with a 1,5mH coil)
This will dampen the 700 - 1100Hz range some 1-1½dB... Not a bad choice if your listening room, is a little harsh in this area..

chris-torb

[PMad]

Hey PMad.

It's difficult to say, if the amp has enough power... You will have to give it a try.

Higher spikes in the front vill do the job..You just have to hit the 5 degre inclination. The box will be easy'er to build...I just don't like the look of a tilt'et box. But otherwise, only minor changes in the performance.

I haven't sealed between the baffel and the box. But some thin selfahedsive filt, would do fine.

Chris-torb

Thank´s Chris

[Juuso]

Today I hooked up my Ellams 25 for the first time! I am very pleased with the sound. The bass is very fast and precise and voices are brilliant.

How deep does it actually go? Port tuned to 40Hz should mean that it can reach down to 40Hz at least, but...

- My amplifier is a "vintage" Sondex S230, 35 W -8 ohms and 50 W-6 ohms.

What was the outcome: is 35W enough? I have just 25W. Actually, I've been looking for higher efficiency designs, but I don't want too bulky ones. These can be made to look really nice, like Torben has shown to all of us. 8)

I hope that some of you, consider building the Ellam25.
I am a little proud off the final design. Espcially the "front piece" works wery well, with the rest of the cabinet- I think..

Well, I am considering. A lot. Seriously.
Anyhow, I would rather not have the ports on back: I'd rather have a port on front, below the woofers of course. Port length should not be a problem, since there's 45deg bend available on suitable diameter.
I'm worried about if this would ruin the speaker function somehow? Why is there two ports like they are in the first place?
Or should I leave the top one on the back, and move only the lower one to front?
Anybody done this kind of port move? Comments? Links?

[Generic George]

What was the outcome: is 35W enough? I have just 25W. Actually, I've been looking for higher efficiency designs, but I don't want too bulky ones. These can be made to look really nice, like Torben has shown to all of us. 8)

These are not going to be a highly efficient design in all probability. They'll be fine for music, but wouldn't be ideal for home theater use. However, you can probably still get some decent SPL.

What you need to understand is that you have to double the power every time you increase the volume by 3db. So this means a very powerful amp (500 watts) will only give you 12db over what your 35 watt amp can deliver.

The efficiency of the speaker is typically given as Xdb @ 1 watt. Troels doesn't give an efficiency for the speakers, from the charts I think it's around 88db. A 35 watt amplifier is a bit over 5 doublings (2-4-8-16-32watts) which means that at 1 meter with 32 watts of power, you will get an SPL of 88 + 15 (3db x 5) or 103db. You do loose 6 db every time the distance doubles though. So at a distance of 2 meters you are down to 97db. At 4 meters 91db. That's more than loud enough for most purposes.

Well, I am considering. A lot. Seriously.
Anyhow, I would rather not have the ports on back: I'd rather have a port on front, below the woofers of course. Port length should not be a problem, since there's 45deg bend available on suitable diameter.
I'm worried about if this would ruin the speaker function somehow? Why is there two ports like they are in the first place?
Or should I leave the top one on the back, and move only the lower one to front?
Anybody done this kind of port move? Comments? Links?

I am building a pair of Troel's SEAS W15CY001 + Fountek NeoCD3, which are designed with a port on the back. Since I was going to be mounting them on a mantlepiece, right against the wall, a back port wouldn't work. So I emailed him and he responded (quite quickly actually) saying that it would be fine to move it to the front.

But that it was very important to keep the rest of the front identical and the interior volumes the same. So you shouldn't have a problem as long as you don't change those aspects. Though I'm not sure how you'd move the top one to the front. Looking over the pictures of the cabinet. I don't believe that that the position of the top port is important. If I am understanding the description correctly, the reason for the two ports is because a single port long enough to get you the 40hz response would be too long to fit in the cabinet, so he's got two to make a sufficiently "long" port. As a result, I don't see any reason why you couldn't simply move both of them to positions lower on the front.

You might want to just send him an email, to check though.

[johngalt47]

Isn't this essentially the same speaker as Zaph's ZD5 (which I have) with one extra woofer?

The crossover isn't nearly as complicated as the ZD5's crossover though.

If it is anywhere near like the ZD5 I expect it to be very nice sounding.