Design ideas for RAAL 140-15D

[jwitt]

Folks,

I am getting a pretty sweet deal for RAAL 140-15D. Madisound lists them for $560 a piece but I am getting them from a legitimate/ authorized source for $380 a piece (Though considering OEM price of Euro 169/ piece even $380 is pretty high).

I know my next speakers are going to sport these RAALs. However I have not found many designs where these RAALs have been implemented well. So I thought I would ping fellow DIYers to get design ideas. I know with these tweeters price of the kit becomes very high and not many DIYers try that. Design ideas for both bookshelves and floorstanders are welcome. I am looking to use these equally for movies and music. I will wait for few months to build a center channel and do plan to use a subwoofer (JL Audio f.113)

Also I am now sort of tired of hearing how these ribbons are not value for money, these cannot be crossed low etc . I am aware of limitation of these ribbons and have chosen to use them inspite of these limitations.

Look forward to hearing back from all of you. PM me if you have are selling these or matching woofer drivers

Jack Webb

[Rick Craig]

Folks,

I am getting a pretty sweet deal for RAAL 140-15D. Madisound lists them for $560 a piece but I am getting them from a legitimate/ authorized source for $380 a piece (Though considering OEM price of Euro 169/ piece even $380 is pretty high).

I know my next speakers are going to sport these RAALs. However I have not found many designs where these RAALs have been implemented well. So I thought I would ping fellow DIYers to get design ideas. I know with these tweeters price of the kit becomes very high and not many DIYers try that. Design ideas for both bookshelves and floorstanders are welcome. I am looking to use these equally for movies and music. I will wait for few months to build a center channel and do plan to use a subwoofer (JL Audio f.113)

Also I am now sort of tired of hearing how these ribbons are not value for money, these cannot be crossed low etc . I am aware of limitation of these ribbons and have chosen to use them inspite of these limitations.

Look forward to hearing back from all of you. PM me if you have are selling these or matching woofer drivers

Jack Webb

I have a pair with a Scan-Speak Illuminator woofers that I'm working on.

[JoshK]

Hi Rick,

I am curious about your opinion on sensitivity. Its been said before by a number of folks that padding down a sensitive tweeter a lot to match the sensitivity of a woofer often gives up a lot of detail the tweeter is capable of. It seems to me to be a shame to give up so much sensitivity.

Its not easy to come up with good solutions for the mid on down that are in the 95db/watt range as it is in the 86db/watt range. Still, I wonder what your thoughts are on padding down the tweeter as much as you have to in this combo.

[jwitt]

Hi Rick,

I am curious about your opinion on sensitivity. Its been said before by a number of folks that padding down a sensitive tweeter a lot to match the sensitivity of a woofer often gives up a lot of detail the tweeter is capable of. It seems to me to be a shame to give up so much sensitivity.

Its not easy to come up with good solutions for the mid on down that are in the 95db/watt range as it is in the 86db/watt range. Still, I wonder what your thoughts are on padding down the tweeter as much as you have to in this combo.

And I wonder if some of high sensitivity PHL drivers would be a good match.

Rick are you building a 2 way or 3 way. RAAL recommends 4th order crossover around 1.6khz. Are you thinking of going that low?

[Rick Craig]

Hi Rick,

I am curious about your opinion on sensitivity. Its been said before by a number of folks that padding down a sensitive tweeter a lot to match the sensitivity of a woofer often gives up a lot of detail the tweeter is capable of. It seems to me to be a shame to give up so much sensitivity.

Its not easy to come up with good solutions for the mid on down that are in the 95db/watt range as it is in the 86db/watt range. Still, I wonder what your thoughts are on padding down the tweeter as much as you have to in this combo.

True, you do waste the extra sensitivity but the additional padding IMO makes no audible difference. I've yet to see a woofer or midbass with 94-95db sensitivity that sounds as good as the lower sensitivity drivers of the same size. The only option that I would consider is the Accuton 7" but the system sensitivity was still around 90-91db with the design I did (ATC woofer, Raven tweeter).

[Rick Craig]

And I wonder if some of high sensitivity PHL drivers would be a good match.

Rick are you building a 2 way or 3 way. RAAL recommends 4th order crossover around 1.6khz. Are you thinking of going that low?

The PHL drivers are ok but if you want better sound I would look at some of the other manufacturers. I'm building a 3-way with dual 10" AudioPulse woofers. A DEQX is going to provide the DSP crossover and I'm waiting on the woofer cabinets to be finished before I add the crossover. I have taken some measurements with Clio but haven't run any crossover simulations in LsPCad. Do you have measurement capability and crossover software?

[davey_m]

How about this 6.5" from Acoustic Elegance? High sensitivity, underhung motor with full copper sleeve. Should give low distortion. Will need a sub or a 3-way system design though:

http://www.aespeakers.com/news.php?start=0&news_id=16

I read somewhere that AE will be doing a kit with this driver and the smaller Raal.

[TacoD]

I think you have to consider Audiotechnology. I got great results with Flex 8I/ Flex 6H.

The 8"/ Raal 140 two-way is very nice. According to Alexander AT is one of the few brands which matches the dynamics of the Raal.

[jwitt]

I think you have to consider Audiotechnology. I got great results with Flex 8I/ Flex 6H.

The 8"/ Raal 140 two-way is very nice. According to Alexander AT is one of the few brands which matches the dynamics of the Raal.

6H would be sweet. It is almost $500/piece though. Need to think about it. :E

[TacoD]

The 6H can easily be replaced with the 18H, you get better mid band but less dynamic capabilities. Audiotechnology is expensive and for the Flex 6" models the price/ performance ratio is the worst. For the same money you also have a C-quence 23I, those are also very nice. You can make a very nice 2-way with 23I/ 8I and Raal.

[jwitt]

18H and 23I are certainly more affordable. It seems I will be able to get 23I for about $400 - $450 a piece. So that is one possibility, which is 23I with 140-15D in a sealed 2 way design. Final speakers would come to about $2500 for 2 mains in MT configuration. Starting to sound sweet . I am planning to use Soniccap & Goertz though want to see how much more expensive Audiocap stuff is. It would be even sweeter if I can use Audiocap.

Other ideas?

-Jack

[Jed]

18H and 23I are certainly more affordable. It seems I will be able to get 23I for about $400 - $450 a piece. So that is one possibility, which is 23I with 140-15D in a sealed 2 way design. Final speakers would come to about $2500 for 2 mains in MT configuration. Starting to sound sweet . I am planning to use Soniccap & Goertz though want to see how much more expensive Audiocap stuff is. It would be even sweeter if I can use Audiocap.

Other ideas?

-Jack

Jack, that sounds like it should be a great speaker. Go for it! Are Audio Technology drivers hard to get? What's the turn around time?

[Paul W]

Consider an MTM. Because the midrange vertical pattern is a good match with a tall ribbon tweeter, I may never build another MTM with a dome.

[jwitt]

Jack, that sounds like it should be a great speaker. Go for it! Are Audio Technology drivers hard to get? What's the turn around time?

Zed, I spoke to Elliot at Zalytron and he said he can get them in 4-6 weeks. I am going to call-up Andre at E-speakers tomorrow. Otherwise I have a buddy who lives in Copenhagen. I might have him buy it and ship it to me.

Paul I hear you on MTM design. It is pretty tempting. If I go for ADT 23I, MTM becomes pretty expensive. Essentially I end up adding another $1000 to the cash outflow. Though I am going to design cabinets such that I have the option of adding another driver in future. You know how sometimes you build something and within months have an urge to upgrade it. At least I do

I was talking to Russel Storey of Stones Sound Studio in Australia and he pointed me to this RAAL design where 140-15D have been implemented. Seems Aleksander himself had contributions to this design. Looks kick-ass though cabinets seems little more complication that I want

http://jirihifi.com/jKN%2001.htm

--Jack

[Jed]

Can't you just get them direct from Audiotechnology?

[jwitt]

Can't you just get them direct from Audiotechnology?

I have sent them an email and waiting to hear back from them. I just realized that dollar prices are based on old conversion rate. e.g. Audio technology lists Euro price for 23I at 336 and dollar price at $518. AT current conversion rate Euro 336 only comes to $425. I hope they can sell it to me at Euro price. Since I would buy 4 units, I would also get 15% discount. This would put cost of 4 drivers shipped to US including delivery fee at $1550 and $390/ piece. That would be SWEEEET

--Jack

[Bear]

I was talking to Russel Storey of Stones Sound Studio in Australia and he pointed me to this RAAL design where 140-15D have been implemented. Seems Aleksander himself had contributions to this design. Looks kick-ass though cabinets seems little more complication that I want

http://jirihifi.com/jKN%2001.htm

I really must be missing something about transmission lines. I did not think that "sealed" was an option on the quarter wave menu. The cabinet looks dead with all of the wood, though I question some of the quality of the ply used.

[jwitt]

Just realized 18H is for sale at e-speakers

http://estore.websitepros.com/1736754/Detail.bok?no=193

[kabeer_g]

Jack,

I am quite jealous of you and wish could spend the money you are spending. I have been looking at speaker ideas myself and have shortlisted two concepts so far:
a) Scanspeak 5.5" woofers paired up with SS Aircirc tweeters in MTM
b) Scanspeak 7" woofers paired up with RAAL 70-20XR in MT design

Second idea came from Rick at Selah and sounds very exciting. I didn't even check about 140-15D since I assumed that would be out of my budget. However at $380 it starts to sound affordable. I have sent you a PM to find out what your source is.

I have not looked at Audiotechnology woofers at all but they seem very exciting. Please keep us posted on your project

[TacoD]

I've used Scanspeak 5.5", 7", 10" and AT 15H, 18H, 23I, 6H, 8I, 10A with standard and custom T/S and I would only use Scanspeak if you like the pronounced mid bass colouration.

Per Skaaning (from AT) only sells directly if there is no distributor in your area.

PHL is nice, I used them in the past, however the AT's are more compatible with a Raal. I used AT with Raal with great results. Also when I asked Alexander he told me that his friend runnig NN acoustics tried several woofers and settled for AT as well. The link for that particular speaker is: http://www.nnacoustics.com/p_xenia.php

I'm working on a 2-way design with custom 8" flex and Raal 140-15D at the moment. However, this beast isn't cheap, realistically with end user prices this one approaches EUR1000/piece for drivers and filter components.

[jwitt]

I've used Scanspeak 5.5", 7", 10" and AT 15H, 18H, 23I, 6H, 8I, 10A with standard and custom T/S and I would only use Scanspeak if you like the pronounced mid bass colouration.

Per Skaaning (from AT) only sells directly if there is no distributor in your area.

PHL is nice, I used them in the past, however the AT's are more compatible with a Raal. I used AT with Raal with great results. Also when I asked Alexander he told me that his friend runnig NN acoustics tried several woofers and settled for AT as well. The link for that particular speaker is: http://www.nnacoustics.com/p_xenia.php

I'm working on a 2-way design with custom 8" flex and Raal 140-15D at the moment. However, this beast isn't cheap, realistically with end user prices this one approaches EUR1000/piece for drivers and filter components.

Thank you for sharing that link.

I kind of thought AT might have that policy. However considering that two AT dealers in US (Madisound and E-speakers) don't have 23I, I am hoping AT will sell directly to me. If they don't, I will get them shipped to London as I keep going there every few weeks.

I was modeling 23I and in a sealed enclosure I am getting a pretty high f3 point (123 hz). I am using T/S parameters from Audiotechnology's site. I need to figure out if I am doing something wrong or is my only option a ported enclosure.

[TacoD]

The standard C-quence woofers are optimized for a ported enclosure. For my design I custom ordered a flex unit with T/S parameters for closed box application. I've to say that a ported cabinet works very well for the stock 23I. There is noting wrong with that.

[Rick Craig]

I've used Scanspeak 5.5", 7", 10" and AT 15H, 18H, 23I, 6H, 8I, 10A with standard and custom T/S and I would only use Scanspeak if you like the pronounced mid bass colouration.

Per Skaaning (from AT) only sells directly if there is no distributor in your area.

PHL is nice, I used them in the past, however the AT's are more compatible with a Raal. I used AT with Raal with great results. Also when I asked Alexander he told me that his friend runnig NN acoustics tried several woofers and settled for AT as well. The link for that particular speaker is: http://www.nnacoustics.com/p_xenia.php

I'm working on a 2-way design with custom 8" flex and Raal 140-15D at the moment. However, this beast isn't cheap, realistically with end user prices this one approaches EUR1000/piece for drivers and filter components.

My experience is limited with the AT drivers but from what I've observed the Scan-Speak woofers are better. That kind of money for a poly cone is crazy in my opinion.

[TacoD]

My experience is limited with the AT drivers but from what I've observed the Scan-Speak woofers are better. That kind of money for a poly cone is crazy in my opinion.

In Europe the price for a 18H is lower than Scanspeak Illuminator, so it all depends on availability and personal preference what brand you pick. If you only want to make a single pair the driver costs is not everything. We are not all manufacturers which try to squeeze out every penny from a design.

[Jed]

My experience is limited with the AT drivers but from what I've observed the Scan-Speak woofers are better. That kind of money for a poly cone is crazy in my opinion.

Agreed....

Just a guess, but I think Rick would agree with me that Scan Speak drivers, when crossed appropriately, do not exhibit excessive midbass coloration. Quite the opposite in my opinion. Maybe some of the larger or older SS mids had this issue, but with the right contour shaping circuit, the SS can be tamed with little effort.

[Rick Craig]

In Europe the price for a 18H is lower than Scanspeak Illuminator, so it all depends on availability and personal preference what brand you pick. If you only want to make a single pair the driver costs is not everything. We are not all manufacturers which try to squeeze out every penny from a design.

In a perfect world they all would cost less.

It's not about squeezing $ - I just would expect more for that kind of money.

[Rick Craig]

Agreed....

Just a guess, but I think Rick would agree with me that Scan Speak drivers, when crossed appropriately, do not exhibit excessive midbass coloration. Quite the opposite in my opinion. Maybe some of the larger or older SS mids had this issue, but with the right contour shaping circuit, the SS can be tamed with little effort.

Absolutely. The old 18W8545 tends to be rather average (not the best mids) in a 2-way but the 18W8531 is hard to beat.

[ttan98]

The PHL drivers are ok but if you want better sound I would look at some of the other manufacturers. I'm building a 3-way with dual 10" AudioPulse woofers. A DEQX is going to provide the DSP crossover and I'm waiting on the woofer cabinets to be finished before I add the crossover. I have taken some measurements with Clio but haven't run any crossover simulations in LsPCad. Do you have measurement capability and crossover software?

Who manufactures Audiopulse woofer? what model you are using for the 10" woofer? Actually I have been looking at PHL drivers.

thanks.

[ThomasW]

Who manufactures Audiopulse woofer?

Audiopulse is the mfgr

[Rick Craig]

Who manufactures Audiopulse woofer? what model you are using for the 10" woofer? Actually I have been looking at PHL drivers.

thanks.

I'm not sure of the origin other than that TC Sounds and AudioPulse have some similarities. You can check out what's available at Parts Express.

[Bear]

Isn't TC Sounds/Audiopulse winding down at this point? I thought that they had ceased manufacturing.

[ThomasW]

TC-Sounds no longer exists.

AudioPulse, (aka Thilo and associates) is making drivers...

PE is a retail outlet for AP. Word is PE will be offering more AP designs.

JohnJ from AE has posted an interesting custom design using the smaller RAAL ribbon... and an IB sub...

http://www.aespeakers.com/pics/temp/PICT2862.JPG

[Bear]

TC-Sounds no longer exists.

AudioPulse, (aka Thilo and associates) is making drivers...

PE is a retail outlet for AP. Word is PE will be offering more AP designs.

Thanks! A lot of the listed AP designs (EPIC, REVO, AXIS) are working their way out of people's inventories, so it wasn't clear to me (my search skills failed me).

JohnJ from AE has posted an interesting custom design using the smaller RAAL ribbon... and an IB sub...
http://www.aespeakers.com/pics/temp/PICT2862.JPG

You have to appreciate someone who eats his own dogfood. There seem to be enough of the AE pro woofers in that set-up to outfit a reasonably-sized dance club.