High-End DIY in PE 0.75 MTM Cabinet

[SilverJS]

Hi all,

Seeking advice. A friend of mine, upon hearing my Nat P's, decided he wanted some and ordered cabinets from PE. Not sure if they or he screwed up his order, but he ended up with 0.75s and decided to give them to me!

I suppose I could sell them, but I have been thinking about doing a simple 2.1 system for music only in the living room, and have the home theater setup I have moved to the basement.

So, anybody have kits or designs to suggest using this cabinet? Money is really no object, I just want something that's the best I can get in that cabinet. A few I was looking at :

1. Troels' Ellam D'Appo;
2. Troels' PL14WF D'Appo;
3. Modified Zaph ZD5. I remember a thread where the man himself mentioned somebody was happy with this speaker in a 0.75 MTM enclosure, I think.

Any other suggestions?

Thanks!

JSB

[Jed]

Hi all,

Seeking advice. A friend of mine, upon hearing my Nat P's, decided he wanted some and ordered cabinets from PE. Not sure if they or he screwed up his order, but he ended up with 0.75s and decided to give them to me!

I suppose I could sell them, but I have been thinking about doing a simple 2.1 system for music only in the living room, and have the home theater setup I have moved to the basement.

So, anybody have kits or designs to suggest using this cabinet? Money is really no object, I just want something that's the best I can get in that cabinet. A few I was looking at :

1. Troels' Ellam D'Appo;
2. Troels' PL14WF D'Appo;
3. Modified Zaph ZD5. I remember a thread where the man himself mentioned somebody was happy with this speaker in a 0.75 MTM enclosure, I think.

Any other suggestions?

Thanks!

JSB

I'm putting the finishing touches on my Minuet5 design that uses dual Scan Speak 15W midwoofers and the Air Circ 6600 in a MTM PE cabinet.

[SilverJS]

Jed,

Now that sounds right on the money - but is it going to be a DIY design, or one of your commercial ones?

[Jed]

Jed,

Now that sounds right on the money - but is it going to be a DIY design, or one of your commercial ones?

Both. My designs are DIY with everything published minus the part values in the crossover- which is known when you purchase the parts from my company. I sell the parts at retail so there isn't anything really different than if you found a schematic online and bought the parts from madisound. Only you buy from me and get unlimited support and a free crossover assembly (if you want that option). For some reason I've had people get upset with the idea of me building the crossover for them because they feel it's less DIY. So whichever way you prefer.

[SilverJS]

Hi Jed,

So - you're telling me that you'll sell me the full crossover, assembled by the designer himself and everything, for the same price as I'd pay for the parts if I bought them separately? Sounds like a killer deal to me. Quite looking forward to that - I think I've found my project.

Now - out of curiosity, why do you choose not to publish the crossover schematics if you are not making money off of that aspect? I suppose to retain the possibility to sell the design as a complete speaker...?

[Jed]

Hi Jed,

So - you're telling me that you'll sell me the full crossover, assembled by the designer himself and everything, for the same price as I'd pay for the parts if I bought them separately? Sounds like a killer deal to me.

Yes, exactly. I think its a really good deal as well. I'm not sure how long this free crossover building service will be available. But for now I do the crossover boards all point to point glued on an MDF board with all the solder points labeled, so all you have to do is solder the wires to the board and to the drivers/or use quick connects if you prefer that.

Quite looking forward to that - I think I've found my project.

I think this design is going to be a smash hit. I'm listening to it right now and I can't believe how clear the mids are. Love the 15W4531G and SS6600.

Now - out of curiosity, why do you choose not to publish the crossover schematics if you are not making money off of that aspect?

Not publishing the crossover means that people have to go through my company to buy the parts for the design. Otherwise why buy from me when you could go direct through madisound? I'm a new business, and I'm a dealer of madisound and PE's, so my business depends on the uniqueness of my service and designs in order for me to make anything. I buy the parts at wholesale and sell to you at retail. The difference, although small, is how I can continue to try new things in speaker building without going bankrupt.

I suppose to retain the possibility to sell the design as a complete speaker...?

This is a possibility as well. I've got a lot of plans and as things pick up I'll be looking for a cabinet builder in my area that can make high end furniture grade cabinets.

[SilverJS]

Jed,

This discussion is purely philosophical at this point, but let me actually turn your logic on its head : why WOULD I buy the crossover parts from Madisound, indeed? In fact, in my experience, in order to get all the required pieces, I usually need to get crossover parts from a little all over the place, meaning I pay shipping twice, or even thrice (worse for me in Canada!). Plus, assembled? The convenience of it all makes it a no-brainer in my opinion.

Also in my humble opinion (and also purely philosophical), another positive aspect of publishing crossovers, I think, is the rigor. I get a bit of a warm & fuzzy by knowing that designs here have been vetted by the likes of Jon & Tom et al. Not that I don't trust your abilities as a designer, not at all. After all, we never get this benefit from any of the commercial designs, do we? It's just that I have come to trust members of this board (including you) more than any other.

In any case - quite looking forward to seeing this completed and reading your final listening impressions!

[Jed]

Jed,I get a bit of a warm & fuzzy by knowing that designs here have been vetted by the likes of Jon & Tom et al.

Still could do that by looking at the phase matching, FR, power response, impedance.... of the posted responses. Wish Jon would come back to htguide.com but his work schedule has left him with little time for anything.

I'll have the Minuet5 done this weekend.

[atm98]

Jed,
I too have been waiting for a design like this. What is the f3? Any idea of the price tag? Will the package include the .75 PE boxes?

I have to start hiding money from the wife.

-Austin-

[Bear]

Jed,
I too have been waiting for a design like this. What is the f3? Any idea of the price tag? Will the package include the .75 PE boxes?

I have to start hiding money from the wife.

While I'm not Jed, I can very much certify to the level of support that he offers his customers (I'm in mid-waffle between building a height-challenged Duet or something like the Minuet plus bass bins).

Jed can let us all know what the crossover cost is going to be, but the drivers are ~$220/each from Madisoun (~$660/speaker). The follow-on question I've bugged him about, of course, is the possibility for a voice-matched center channel, as well. Jon Marsh's admonition about making a silk purse out of a sow's ear with the Modula MTM center channel notwithstanding.

EDIT: A quick Unibox calc gives you an F3 of 45.71 Hz with an Fb of 45.00 Hz in 20L of net air. That may be a little on the generous side for what you can get from the cabinet. Also, the port size and tuning is going to be a big deal. Too small of a port, and you hit compression ~60 Hz at moderately loud volumes. Too large of a port, and you run the risk of audible resonance and you get an inordinately long tuning length (>35cm). Time to wait for the word from the man himself.

Bill

[Jed]

EDIT: A quick Unibox calc gives you an F3 of 45.71 Hz with an Fb of 45.00 Hz in 20L of net air. That may be a little on the generous side for what you can get from the cabinet. Also, the port size and tuning is going to be a big deal. Too small of a port, and you hit compression ~60 Hz at moderately loud volumes. Too large of a port, and you run the risk of audible resonance and you get an inordinately long tuning length (>35cm). Time to wait for the word from the man himself.

I'm using a 2.5" port, but up to 3" flared will work. Right now the bass tuning is at 50hz, but I'm going to go a bit lower. The 15Ws have unbelievable bass rivaling many 6.5" woofers. The thing that sets them apart is the level of clarity. There's more resolution across the board than other cheaper drivers. The difference for me is not subtle.

I should have all the details about the Minuet5 on my website with ordering info this weekend- maybe sooner as I'm working on the parts BOM tonight.

Any idea of the price tag? Will the package include the .75 PE boxes?

I have to start hiding money from the wife.

-Austin-

Hi Austin.

The bass is satisfying and you will likely not need a sub for most music. The thing that should be noted, is a speaker can have an F3 of 40hz, yet if the harmonic distortion is higher than a speaker with say an F3 of 50hz, the lower harmonic distortion system sounds tighter and better defined.

I'm going to say the Minuet5 F3 is going to end up around 48hz.

The kit will be sold as drivers and assembled crossovers. I find that what people want is so specific beyond that it's better to just add whatever you want to the minimum order.

[atm98]

The thing that should be noted, is a speaker can have an F3 of 40hz, yet if the harmonic distortion is higher than a speaker with say an F3 of 50hz, the lower harmonic distortion system sounds tighter and better defined.

Good point.
I am thinking about a sub scenario since a good portion of the listening will be movies.

The future possibility of a center channel was my next question.

-Austin-

[Jed]

Good point.
I am thinking about a sub scenario since a good portion of the listening will be movies.

The future possibility of a center channel was my next question.

-Austin-

If people buy it... I'll build it. My thought is the Illuminator tweeter with the small format flange, 15W4531G, and I'm not sure which woofer. Maybe a pair of 18Ws.

[Bear]

If people buy it... I'll build it. My thought is the Illuminator tweeter with the small format flange, 15W4531G, and I'm not sure which woofer. Maybe a pair of 18Ws.

You may want two options. Given the bass capability of the 15W, the twin 18Ws would probably be superfluous for CC usage. A simple TM center, a la the original B&W HTM series, would probably be good enough for >80 Hz.

[atm98]

If people buy it... I'll build it. My thought is the Illuminator tweeter with the small format flange, 15W4531G, and I'm not sure which woofer. Maybe a pair of 18Ws.

Is a center MTM at all a possibility or is the shortcommings of not having a tweeter over mid too great given the $$$ of the drivers?

[Jed]

Is a center MTM at all a possibility or is the shortcommings of not having a tweeter over mid too great given the $$$ of the drivers?

Could do something like the Dynamic Series' tightly spaced mids... only use 15Ws with a small flanged Illuminator tweeter.

A Reference series won't be happening until after I finish up the Dynamic 1s, which a bunch of people are waiting for.

[Jed]

You may want two options. Given the bass capability of the 15W, the twin 18Ws would probably be superfluous for CC usage.

Some people like really big CCs. The Dynamic 4CC is outselling the 2CC believe it or not.

Although I admit the Scan Speaks draw a different crowd.

[Bear]

Although I admit the Scan Speaks draw a different crowd.

I suspect that I resemble that.

[atm98]

I've got big speakers. They are nice but big. Large CCs seem awkward unless used in dedicated theater room.

I am trying to fit TV above CC above Fireplace. However this simple task will require a complete remodel of the living room....So no hurry on my side.

I do have complete metal working capabilities so machining and redrilling flanges is no problem if such a task seems necessary. But this is for later discussion.

[Jed]

Well, I got all the info up for the Minuet5 on my website. + - 1.5dbs. Low order slopes. Perfect phase tracking, easy 8 ohm impedance. 85db sensitivity. 20L cabinet with some of the finest drivers out there.