Need info on SEAS speakers

[sonoma john]

Hi, Does anyone have any real world hands on experience with the Excel line of 7inch speakers that are listed in the "Thor" kit. These speakers are $200 and while the Millenium tweeters have a tremendous following and rep. I can't find any info on the 7inch drivers. My question is are they worth the money or would going with the scan-speak drivers be a better choice?? The Peerless drivers are a strong bang for buck driver but what do you have to give up in sound quality??
I am building a 5.1 system and I would like to get as much quality for my dollar as is possible. This may also be the start of a new hobby, or a migraine, any info is greatly appreciated and needed....

[cjd]

Crossover > driver

The Seas are excellent, but are also easy to produce horrible results with.

Each has their own character - what you gain or give up with any of these is hard to quantify in a sentence or two understandable by someone not already in over their head in this stuff.

The quality vs $$ investment will be better with the Peerless or Dayton RS drivers or some of the T-B's also. That's not to say you don't GAIN something by spending more, but relative to the increase in cost, it's not a linear gain.

I generally don't recommend starting with top dollar drivers, regardless. JonW ignored that advice and took over a year (I believe... the thread is here, you can correct me easily ) instead, testing, retesting, and simply working that same pair of Scans plus crossover design over and over vs building and improving with entirely new designs.

If you want results with the pride of having assembled it all yourself, dig around, post a bit more info on what your room/environment are like, ask questions, and we can point you to some existing designs that will make you grin ear-to-ear.

If you want to dive into learning design, expect a long road ahead and perhaps quite a wait for your setup. But fun too.

C

[sonoma john]

Thanks for the info, I was leaning towards Peerless, I think getting a set of speakers to overachieve will be more interesting than trying to get some prima-donnas to do their thing!! How important will it be to drop a little in the tweeter department, from the millenium to something in the 27series that's a lot cheaper?? My theater room is 17 by 30 or so. I am not an opera person, the only figaro on my property is the garbage collector. I would have Jimi Hendrix as a music selection so I am not real fussy about catching every note just so, but I would like to hear it as clearly defined as possible. Once again, thanks for the info....

[Jed]

Hi, Does anyone have any real world hands on experience with the Excel line of 7inch speakers that are listed in the "Thor" kit. These speakers are $200 and while the Millenium tweeters have a tremendous following and rep. I can't find any info on the 7inch drivers. My question is are they worth the money or would going with the scan-speak drivers be a better choice?? .

I've used Seas Excel and Scan Speak and prefer Scan Speak for the midrange. It's easier on the ears with poor recordings and they have all the detail. Hard to explain. I like metal cones for the bass/midbass. This is what I used in my Duet10 speaker.

[cjd]

27TD* series is highly regarded.

Even with the Peerless, it's all about the crossover.

[fjhuerta]

Listen to cjd - he knows what he's talking about

I'd suggest starting with paper / poly drivers (I have tried SEAS and Peerless and like them both - a lot). They are easier to work with.

[tktran]

I agree with most comments by cjd.

Having nice drivers is great, but having nice drivers with great crossovers is far better.

I have the SEAS Thor, with premium crossovers. My full scale, full range, domestic loudspeakers are NaO 2T bi-amped hybrid 3-way, and I also have experience in many studios so I have no qualms saying that the Thor's sound is pretty average. For a speaker in this size and price class (~US$5-10K) this is disappointing.

The mediocrity is not apparent when playing R&B/hip hop/dance or other synthesized/processed sounds , but when I switch to playing traditional instruments it is clear. When listening to vocal acapellas, rock, blues, jazz, classical- the music is just off.

Now I use another crossover. Designed from the ground up by Jim Mitchell/ USA. And surprise surprise- the sound is completely different! The difference is not subtle- if you were listening blindfolded, you would think they are different speakers! The new speaker is a hit- and everything sounds beautiful.

I'll give Joe D'Apollito the benefit of the doubt- the driver spec for the SEAS units must have changed over the years, because the Thors/Odin Mk3 cabinet and crossover is mis-aligned for the current or past crop of SEAS drivers.

DIY loudspeaker building can be a hit or miss, and if you don't mind that, it's part of the fun. But just don't believe that dropping big bucks on drivers is necessary, nor sufficient to get great results.

regards,
Thanh.

[cotdt]

Thanh, how do you pronounce your name?

[sonoma john]

My thanks to all who have taken the time to respond, I do indeed appreciate it greatly.

I have had a nice 5.1 theater for a few years and have enjoyed it tremendously. Surround sound has unlocked the beauty in movie watching. My original system was a Bose system, yes I said the B word, and it wasn't half bad. I swapped out the front 301's and stuck in an old decades old pair of Onkyo 12inch threeways, my garage blasters just to see, surprisingly they sound better, big and warm and smooth like my fathers old Buick on a Sunday cruise!!! So, if nothing at all was to happen with my theater it would be quite acceptable as is, just a good stroke of happenstance.

I do wonder though, how good can it get, how good can sound actually be and how much can it influence the watching of a movie? This question is what motivates me to look for that elusive "awesome sound". I am not sure if I would recognize it if it bit me in the backside but I am willing to invest some time and energy and very little money to find the elusive beast. The starting point for me would be the front speakers and which among the many represent the best key stone, and from the many answers I have already gotten it seems that that there is no consensus among those who know, so the jungle is getting denser by the moment....

[Dennis H]

What others are hinting at, I'll come right out and say. Any of the speakers in Missions Accomplished will sound much better than what you have. Zaphaudio.com is another source of good designs. They will also be much better than designing your own unless you're willing to spend the money on crossover software and measurement gear and spend a long time learning how to use it.

Several of the large 3-ways (for mains) have smaller matching centers and surrounds. You'll also need a real sub, not whatever came with the Bose. Don't be put off by the low price of the Dayton and Tang Band drivers used in many of the systems. They were picked because their measured performance is excellent. Cheap Asian labor makes the low price possible.

[cjd]

There is a consensus, but it may not be what you're quite expecting.

The consensus is, good crossover is more important than driver selection. Driver selection still is pretty darned important. In fact, it's a package deal. I also don't think you're ever going to get a driver to overperform - rather, some drivers are more forgiving of less than top shelf work in the crossover department.

Around here I don't think we often give concrete answers (Unless it's Jim touting his latest project ) - perhaps too much purists to think there IS such a thing, even though for most people there probably IS. We prefer to hem and haw, to evaluate small differences that may not even be audible, to ponder the theory, and to seek that last troy ounce of perfection.

You don't mention where you're located so I don't know if recommending Dayton is silly - if you're in the US, they're worth looking at in part because there are so many very good design options out there - for your room, I'd be pointing you at Khanspires or Statements as mains, and go from there... Jed has some excellent options, and of course classics like the Natalie P are also well worth a look - not at all dated, just... smaller. If you're in Canada, it may be worth considering these, maybe not.

I will say this: Sound for movies is important. If you notice your setup, it's not yet right. Sounds you don't expect will always jump out at you, but if, for example, a cricket chirps somewhere over to your left, you should wonder if it's the movie, or a real cricket.

Room setup and treatment also plays a role here. Rather big role, in fact.

[Jed]

I agree with most comments by cjd.

Having nice drivers is great, but having nice drivers with great crossovers is far better.

I have the SEAS Thor, with premium crossovers. My full scale, full range, domestic loudspeakers are NaO 2T bi-amped hybrid 3-way, and I also have experience in many studios so I have no qualms saying that the Thor's sound is pretty average. For a speaker in this size and price class (~US$5-10K) this is disappointing.

The mediocrity is not apparent when playing R&B/hip hop/dance or other synthesized/processed sounds , but when I switch to playing traditional instruments it is clear. When listening to vocal acapellas, rock, blues, jazz, classical- the music is just off.

Now I use another crossover. Designed from the ground up by Jim Mitchell/ USA. And surprise surprise- the sound is completely different! The difference is not subtle- if you were listening blindfolded, you would think they are different speakers! The new speaker is a hit- and everything sounds beautiful.

I'll give Joe D'Apollito the benefit of the doubt- the driver spec for the SEAS units must have changed over the years, because the Thors/Odin Mk3 cabinet and crossover is mis-aligned for the current or past crop of SEAS drivers.

DIY loudspeaker building can be a hit or miss, and if you don't mind that, it's part of the fun. But just don't believe that dropping big bucks on drivers is necessary, nor sufficient to get great results.

regards,
Thanh.

This is insightful and dead on.

[sonoma john]

I wandered over to the Zaph Audio website and found exactly what I was looking for. There he has a great list of drivers with all the information that is needed. Man, talk about what the doctor ordered, just a great site to get a quick fix education and get started in this quest. From the info I have found it is clear that a sufficient crossover is as important as the choice in speakers. I might let the folks at Madisound fix me up with the crossovers while I build my own enclosures. Somewhere I saw a person who used a slice of black granite as a baffle, very interesting. I am sure purists will disagree, but, oh well. Thanks to all for all the info and insights into the importance of the crossover and other intangibles, i do understand what you are saying....and again, thanks!

[jimangie1973]

I wandered over to the Zaph Audio website and found exactly what I was looking for. There he has a great list of drivers with all the information that is needed. Man, talk about what the doctor ordered, just a great site to get a quick fix education and get started in this quest. From the info I have found it is clear that a sufficient crossover is as important as the choice in speakers. I might let the folks at Madisound fix me up with the crossovers while I build my own enclosures. Somewhere I saw a person who used a slice of black granite as a baffle, very interesting. I am sure purists will disagree, but, oh well. Thanks to all for all the info and insights into the importance of the crossover and other intangibles, i do understand what you are saying....and again, thanks!

You're really risking being very disappointed by having Madisound design the crossover for some drivers you choose. Madisound does not have near the time to devote to properly design the crossover for the enclosure you build. For the crossover to result in good sound, the individual driver impedance and frequency responses (on-axis, off-axis) need to be measured in the enclosure. Then the crossover circuit can be designed based upon this data. My recommendation would be to build one of Zaph's kits.

If you don't mind an initial crossover that sounds like crap and you are willing to tweak based upon learning to measure and design the crossover yourself, then by all means try it, it's a fun hobby.

Jim

[ThomasW]

Yes we're quite familar with John Krutke (aka Zaph) since HT-Guide is his primary forum.

Purists will agree that granite baffles done right are excellent.

Meniscus will design crossovers the correct way, that being using measurements taken from your drivers measured in your baffles..... .

[Dennis H]

From the info I have found it is clear that a sufficient crossover is as important as the choice in speakers. I might let the folks at Madisound fix me up with the crossovers while I build my own enclosures.

Chuckle. You still don't get it. Madisound can't even come close to designing a good crossover for you. For a custom design, you need to build the boxes, mount the drivers in the boxes, measure the drivers in the boxes and THEN design the crossover based on the measurements.

You've got this notion that all you have to do is pick some drivers and then, oh by the way, design a crossover for them. That's just SO wrong on so many levels.

Edit: if that wasn't clear enough, any of the designs in Missions Accomplished or on Zaph's page will sound way better than what you are proposing.

[fjhuerta]

My first build that sounded incredible was a Zaph project. It was the full range Hi-Vi minispeaker.

My previous build was a Focal / Bohlender Graebener MTM tower. It sounded like garbage. Each woofer costs 6 times what each Hi-Vi driver did. Do the math!

I credit John with helping me more and more everyday with this hobby. He's one of the great guys.

[norcad]

Troels Gravesen Is another great place to look for good DIY speakers.

If you look at his "Poor Man Strad - Excel" he still uses a cheap 27 Seas tweeter. That should say a little bit about driver cost vs good crossovers.

For a newbie it will be much easier to get good sound from Seas Prestige series because the paper cones dont have the awful breakups like the metal cones.
But for a pro, this isnt a big problem, and the Excel series is better when it comes to distortion and midrange clarity.

IMO:
In a home theater setup the Prestige series will deliver a very good sound, both for movies and music. The electronic and placement of speakers etc will not be perfect for music, so the drivers will not be the weakest link there.
If you have expensive electronic, maybe a listening room with acoustic treatment and listen to acoustical music in pure stereo, the Excel series CAN do a better job.

[Dave Bullet]

I'll chime in and say, it seems like you've got the cash to go and build an expensive DIY speaker if you are looking at SEAS Excel drivers.

In my view, the more you spend on any DIY hobby ... the more you want certainty of the result. I mean if you are playing with $5 dumpster drivers, it doesn't really matter right? (you're doing it for more fun).

I would recommend one of two approaches:
1. You want to have fun and don't care about the result. Buy some cheap drivers and play around with crossovers on a cheap and throwaway amplifier (since you'll probably end up shorting it or could hurt yourself wiring it).
2. Build an established design (as others have pointed to above) with the expensive drivers. Seas and Scanspeak both offer quality products and many designs exist. The Dayton Reference Series (RS) line also offer great bang for buck and many designs exist here (see missions accomplished).

Don't be disappointed that you haven't designed from the ground up your own and first speaker. Believe me - you will still learn more than enough building an existing proven design and will have far more questions at the end than at the beginning.

Cheers,
Dave.

[sonoma john]

And Cheers to you Dave,
I have settled in to a design by Jon Marsh, his Modula MTM-1 which is a pair of Dayton 180's with a SEAS 27TD. It is hard to argue against this virtually turn key speaker that Jon has drawn up so nicely. Even as a novice I think this is doable for a first timer. With the economy the way that it is, this package seems more realistic than the Excel series. I do plan on some cosmetic extra's in the way of granite baffles and such so that it is gonna be kinda nice!! Thanks for all the input ....

[Dave Bullet]

HI Sonoma John,

Good choice. I don't think they are beyond the capabilities of a first time builder and you have heaps of help back here to fall on. Start a "build thread" when you begin and help will come.

I've never heard any of Jon's designs, but haven't read any criticism. Builders claim to say they sound far better than they expected. The bang for buck principle applies. It wouldn't surprise me if you stop hankering after the seas / scanspeaks after you hear a well designed crossover as Jon puts into his speakers with still quite good Dayton drivers.

Cheers,
Dave.