New guy build recommendation

[fork]

So I have decided to build my first pair of home speakers and I would like some suggestions. They will be used in a room that is not too large (apartment living room) and they will be powered most likely by a Harman Kardon reciever (this has not been purchased yet, I'm assuming it will handle 4 ohms.) They will be used for a 50/50 mix of music and movies. I do listen to all types of music including rock so I want them to be able to handle a fair amount of bass. I would like them to be able to hold their own with out a subwoofer if possible, although I do have 2 decent powered subs now. I would like to keep the cost of drivers and crossover parts below $400 for the pair but I could be convinced to go higher if it would be a good value, and large increase in performance.

I have a fair amount of relavent experience that would be applicable to building the speakers even though I haven't built a pair before, I have built numerous systems for cars. I am not the best wood worker but part of the reason for this project is to learn a few woodworking skills from my grand father who is a master woodworker and cabinet maker.

I also work with electronics everyday and have built some guitar effects pedals from schematics, so construction of cross overs should not be an issue. Design of a crossover would be a whole different story, although I would love to learn this.

I am leaning toward a 3 way design since I want to be capable of a fairly high volume and bass level. One of the designs I was leaning toward was the Zaph ZDT3.5. But I would like to hear other suggestions from people more experienced than me.

On an other note, this looks like a great site which I am glad/pissed that I found because the last thing I need is an other time consuming expensive hobby. :twisted: Haha Thanks in advance

[bikedave]

Hey fork, welcome to HTGuide!

I have to say that the last line of your post is absolutely correct. Once you start, you will be hooked and thereafter financially distraught!

As far as recommendations, I can say with a fair amount of certainty that the response you will get most will be to go with a proven, tried and true design. You are already on your way as you have looked into Zaph's offerings. There are many on this site who have built his designs and I know of no one who has been dissatisfied. Almost all rave reviews.

Your best bet is to meander through the "Mission Accomplished" section and find a design which meets your goals financially and acoustically and go with it. Designing your own crossover is a technically challenging as well as time consuming activity, especially for 3-ways and up. Many of the accomplished designers on this site have a fair amount of resources tied up in test equipment and software.

All this to say, look around and find something you like! And have fun, because it is!

[Jonasz]

Jed's M5W should be a nice candidate. I expect the RS270 to have superior bass to a pair of RS180. The drivers are all high performance. It's a little over your budget but I think it's well spent money.

http://clearwaveloudspeaker.googlepages.com/m5w

[---k---]

I heard the ZDT3.5 at Iowa. It was nice. I wasn't paying much attention this year, but it seemed like a nice Audiophile speaker. Had that airy, delicate, detail sound.

I'm not sure the ZDT3.5 is going to be the champ when it comes to high volume level you mention. The RS52 midrange has a very small xmax and just isn't capable of a lot. There was a lot of criticism of the RS52 on PE's forum recently, seemed to be centered around its lack of xmax and just running out of steam at high levels. I think some of it is just the nature of which drivers are in vogue.

Zaph modeled the power handling, and seems to think it is okay:

Even with this 2" dome, this sim is only a rough guideline and my ears had to be the final judge of output potential. At high music levels, I can hear where the dome overloads with some solo male vocals. That's at an uncomfortably high level however. When music with a full spectral content comes along, it's obvious that the woofer excursion is going to be the primary limiting factor. Bass guitar, kick drum, pipe organs (or 1812 cannons for that matter) will overload the woofers just above tuning or anywhere below tuning, long before the mid dome runs out of steam.

But designs like the NatP with a pair of subs will offer more output capability. The old RS TMWW seems to have fallen out of vogue, but it is also an excellent design and will offer more output capability with good quality.

[---k---]

Jed's M5W should be a nice candidate. I expect the RS270 to have superior bass to a pair of RS180. The drivers are all high performance. It's a little over your budget but I think it's well spent money.

Oooh. Those look nice. I hadn't seen that yet.

[Jed]

Jed's M5W should be a nice candidate. I expect the RS270 to have superior bass to a pair of RS180. The drivers are all high performance. It's a little over your budget but I think it's well spent money.

http://clearwaveloudspeaker.googlepages.com/m5w

Thanks for the recommendation Jonasz. These speakers are very comparable to the high end Duet10ss version. The last few weeks I've been listening to them has been very enjoyable and has me scratching my head whether or not really expensive drivers are worth the added cost. I'd say these great performing drivers get someone 90% of the way without spending over $1500 on parts for the "best." The biggest advantage I'd say the Scan Speak drivers have over the Dayton/SB Acoustics/Vifa is the neutral presentation and the confirmation that the timbre is closely matched to the sound of an actual instrument/voice. By the way I'm selling the "demo" used drivers and crossovers for this speaker at a reduced price, so if anyone is interested contact me off the forum.

[fork]

Thanks for all the responses so far and so quickly. I definitely want to build a proven design, because I do not want to try and design something for my first build. It does look like the Zaph 3.5 may be lacking the high output I am looking for. Jed's M5W does look nice but I think that is a bit more tan I want to spend right now. The RS TMWW looks like it might be a viable candidate, however I am concerned about the impedance of the speaker, and the cost is a little high at about 500+. I only found one impedance graph ( I did not read every page yet) and it looked to be in the 3 ohm range. Would a Harman Kardon receiver handle this? Also I've looked at most of the designs in the mission accomplished section and on Zaphs website, is there somewhere else I should be looking. I've also seen the projects on parts express and the Impresario looks interesting although it seems to use pretty low cost drivers, the VHTs also look interesting but the tweeters are discontinued.


Thanks again for all the help

[ThomasW]

Given the increase in parts cost since many of the Missions Accomplished designs were originally posted, there's no way the RS TMWW can be built for less than $500-$600/pr.

Whether your receiver can handle a nominal 4 ohm load that dips to 3 ohms is best discussed with HK tech support

[Curt C]

I've also seen the projects on parts express and the Impresario looks interesting although it seems to use pretty low cost drivers, the VHTs also look interesting but the tweeters are discontinued.

Having designed the crossovers for both the Impresario and the VHT's, I can’t recommend either for high SPL’s. In addition, It’s hard to beat the RS series drivers for their combination of low cost and sound quality.

Of those you mentioned, if impedance is an issue, Jed’s M5W’s are probably your best bet, as you can expect max SPL’s of around 106 dB, and will provide much lower extension over a design utilizing a pair of RS180’s. (An f3 in the high 20’s, vs. around 40 Hz for vented alignments.) The designs using a pair of RS225’s will match the RS270 in bass extension, and will provide a couple more dB of SPL, but at the cost of a 4 ohm impedance.

You can have good, or you can have loud, but if you want good and loud, you have to pay the piper…

C

[Dennis H]

HK receivers have a reputation for handling low impedance well.

[Operandi]

The M5W looks really nice...

RJB also has some nice designs. The JD83 is right around your budget and would be worth considering.

[DeathMonk]

I heard the ZDT3.5 at Iowa. It was nice. I wasn't paying much attention this year, but it seemed like a nice Audiophile speaker. Had that airy, delicate, detail sound.

I'm not sure the ZDT3.5 is going to be the champ when it comes to high volume level you mention. The RS52 midrange has a very small xmax and just isn't capable of a lot. There was a lot of criticism of the RS52 on PE's forum recently, seemed to be centered around its lack of xmax and just running out of steam at high levels. I think some of it is just the nature of which drivers are in vogue.

Zaph modeled the power handling, and seems to think it is okay:

But designs like the NatP with a pair of subs will offer more output capability. The old RS TMWW seems to have fallen out of vogue, but it is also an excellent design and will offer more output capability with good quality.

The ZDT3.5s play loud. In a situation like this one, it would be more than enough.

[dar47]

Thanks for all the responses so far and so quickly. I definitely want to build a proven design, because I do not want to try and design something for my first build. It does look like the Zaph 3.5 may be lacking the high output I am looking for. Jed's M5W does look nice but I think that is a bit more tan I want to spend right now. The RS TMWW looks like it might be a viable candidate, however I am concerned about the impedance of the speaker, and the cost is a little high at about 500+. I only found one impedance graph ( I did not read every page yet) and it looked to be in the 3 ohm range. Would a Harman Kardon receiver handle this? Also I've looked at most of the designs in the mission accomplished section and on Zaphs website, is there somewhere else I should be looking. I've also seen the projects on parts express and the Impresario looks interesting although it seems to use pretty low cost drivers, the VHTs also look interesting but the tweeters are discontinued.


Thanks again for all the help

Vary interesting, your close to where I started. I was using my son's HK AVR335 and built the Murphy TMWW towers, center channel and then Zaph's L18's for surrounds. The AVR335 rated at 50 watts into 2 channels drove them no problem. I replaced the HK with a Marantz SR7002 which would checked out and go in to standby mode with a rated 110 watts into 2 channels. I then added the Marantz MM8003 amp and drove 5 channels with the amp and the 2 rear surrounds with the SR7002 with the receiver still going into standby. The amp was reviewed and tested stable at 140watts into 5 channels. I sold the amp and got a Emotiva Xpa-5 and all is well. So from my experience the HK's are well under rated and will do well running 5 channels at decent levels until you can add an amp. there are many nice designs to go with here, I went with all metal and matching tweets for the 5 channels. The towers are way more then I expected in 2 channel for music.

[fork]

Well thanks again for the help, it looks like the Dayton TMWW is out of my price range right now. Also this is probably the case with Jeds M5W.

Quote:
RJB also has some nice designs. The JD83 is right around your budget and would be worth considering.

This may be an option but I can not find a crossover schematic.

I also think there may be a disconnect in what I consider loud. This will be used in an apartment so it can only be so loud but I don't want to be bottoming out woofers in big scenes in movies, and I want to be able to play music at decent level while having a small party. I'm thinking that most of the 3 way or multiple woofer designs I'm looking at will accomplish this.

An other design I've come across is the Aethers although I'm not sure how the open baffle design will fit my needs.

It is starting to seem that the more I research the more questions I have. So thanks again for the help.

[djg]

Fork, the crossover is on the same drawing as the cabinet.

[fork]

Wow I must of glazed right over it, thanks