Statements....have i damaged my ribbons?

[johnnysamoa]

I've been enjoying my Statements and Statements Center for a few months now, but have recently encountered a horrible problem. My L/R ribbons have started to "buzz" when played at high (-20 on my EMO DMR-1 / XPA 5 amp used to drive the LCR) volume.

Still sound great at more reasonable volumes, but i'm afraid i've damaged my Founteks. Is this possible/normal? I was careful breaking them in the first month, but i'm afraid that some recent HT demos at -10 are the root cause of my ribbon noise.

You can see the ribbon/alu vibrating violently at these high volumes, but it decreases at lower levels and sounds (to me, anyways) OK at lower levels.

Any advice before I replace the ribbons? I suppose I could remove the ribbon from the Center and swap it in/out of my LR to check?

thansk in advance

[Jim Holtz]

I've been enjoying my Statements and Statements Center for a few months now, but have recently encountered a horrible problem. My L/R ribbons have started to "buzz" when played at high (-20 on my EMO DMR-1 / XPA 5 amp used to drive the LCR) volume.

Still sound great at more reasonable volumes, but i'm afraid i've damaged my Founteks. Is this possible/normal? I was careful breaking them in the first month, but i'm afraid that some recent HT demos at -10 are the root cause of my ribbon noise.

You can see the ribbon/alu vibrating violently at these high volumes, but it decreases at lower levels and sounds (to me, anyways) OK at lower levels.

Any advice before I replace the ribbons? I suppose I could remove the ribbon from the Center and swap it in/out of my LR to check?

thansk in advance

Wow! You're the 1st person I've ever heard of that has had a problem with the ribbons from too much volume. 1st thing is, don't replace the ribbons, they're repairable at Madisound. It costs $19 each the last I knew to have them repaired with a new ribbon element.

One thing that gives me pause is that I've never seen a ribbon element move even at high volumes. Are you sure the crossover is wired properly? It might pay to check it out.

Jim

[Curt C]

i'm afraid that some recent HT demos at -10 are the root cause of my ribbon noise.

I'm suspecting that at those levels, and with the right material, you experienced the amp clipping the output signal. This would have dissipated a much higher than normal amount of power across the ribbons passband and likely stretched them.

The ribbons should have handled the woofer excrusion SPL limitation of 110 dB with no damage. In other words, unless the amp clipped, the woofers or even the mids should have been complaining before the ribbons turned into a gum wrappers...


C

[BobEllis]

Another thing to check is whether the back of the ribbon seals. If I read the drawings correctly, they share the same space as the woofers. I had a pair of JP3s in an MT that had an air leak between the faceplate and the body, the ribbon would move the when only the mid was driven. Try tapping on a woofer and see if there is any ribbon movement. I put a bead of hot melt around the faceplate-body connection that sealed mine. You may still need a rebuild, but can at least avoid a repeat destruction.

[brijenjas]

Another thing to check is whether the back of the ribbon seals. If I read the drawings correctly, they share the same space as the woofers. I had a pair of JP3s in an MT that had an air leak between the faceplate and the body, the ribbon would move the when only the mid was driven. Try tapping on a woofer and see if there is any ribbon movement. I put a bead of hot melt around the faceplate-body connection that sealed mine. You may still need a rebuild, but can at least avoid a repeat destruction.

To add to this suggestion, make sure the flange to tweeter assembly screws are tight.

[johnnysamoa]

regarding crossover

Wow! You're the 1st person I've ever heard of that has had a problem with the ribbons from too much volume. 1st thing is, don't replace the ribbons, they're repairable at Madisound. It costs $19 each the last I knew to have them repaired with a new ribbon element.

One thing that gives me pause is that I've never seen a ribbon element move even at high volumes. Are you sure the crossover is wired properly? It might pay to check it out.

Jim

Jim/Curt:

Would a misconfigured crossover result in these symptoms (buzzing at high SPL, movement of element)?

Reason I wonder is.........the tweet crossover is the simplest of the 3 and I can't believe I screwed them both up and didn't notice until turning them up loud. They only recently started buzzing/moving (unless I totally overlooked it the first two months).

Pretty tight fit to pull my crossovers out the bottom woof hole, but if the crossover is a likely culprit, i'll do this before anything else.

With the element moving, as reported does this mean it needs repair or could it be a result of bad crossover? I just can't believe I've been listening to these for two months and didn't notice until now.

What's the best way to test my founteks (with moving elements) to see if they are working correctly. I swear, they still sound ok at lower levels and the element doesn't move much until lousder SPLs are applied.

thanks for everyone's help so far.

[Jim Holtz]

Jim/Curt:

Would a misconfigured crossover result in these symptoms (buzzing at high SPL, movement of element)?

Reason I wonder is.........the tweet crossover is the simplest of the 3 and I can't believe I screwed them both up and didn't notice until turning them up loud. They only recently started buzzing/moving (unless I totally overlooked it the first two months).

Pretty tight fit to pull my crossovers out the bottom woof hole, but if the crossover is a likely culprit, i'll do this before anything else.

With the element moving, as reported does this mean it needs repair or could it be a result of bad crossover? I just can't believe I've been listening to these for two months and didn't notice until now.

What's the best way to test my founteks (with moving elements) to see if they are working correctly. I swear, they still sound ok at lower levels and the element doesn't move much until lousder SPLs are applied.

thanks for everyone's help so far.

I've never seen a ribbon element move which is why I brought it up. The crossover to the ribbon is 3750 Hz. which is very high and out of the frequency area where there is a lot of energy. As Curt pointed out, the other drivers should give up before the ribbons. Also, the Emotiva has a LOT of power so I doubt that it clipped.

It may be a PITA but I'd double check the crossover if they were mine to make sure there isn't more power going to the ribbons than should be.

Just a thought. Does the Emo drive them effortlessly at normal volumes or do you have to turn the volume on the preamp up quite a bit?

Jim

[Dave Bullet]

My guess is as Curt said, amplifier clipping driving more power than should via higher order harmonic distortion to the ribbons above the xo point.

If you saw the element of the ribbon moving, then it is likely being vibrated by other drivers / pressure loading of the enclosure, rather than excursion of the element itself which above 3,750Hz would be very small (don't have the formular handy to calculate excursion).

Swapping the centre ribbon and with one of the mains and comparing left and right isn't a bad idea. Run with a mono source and compare - would put your mind at rest (ie. are ribbons damaged or not).

Another option is to borrow an osciliscope and try and confirm clipping level with the same source material and -10 setting on your pre-amp to confirm whether that is an issue.

[Jim Holtz]

My guess is as Curt said, amplifier clipping driving more power than should via higher order harmonic distortion to the ribbons above the xo point.

If you saw the element of the ribbon moving, then it is likely being vibrated by other drivers / pressure loading of the enclosure, rather than excursion of the element itself which above 3,750Hz would be very small (don't have the formular handy to calculate excursion).

Swapping the centre ribbon and with one of the mains and comparing left and right isn't a bad idea. Run with a mono source and compare - would put your mind at rest (ie. are ribbons damaged or not).

Another option is to borrow an osciliscope and try and confirm clipping level with the same source material and -10 setting on your pre-amp to confirm whether that is an issue.

Here's the reason I don't suspect the amp clipping as the source of the problem. From Emotiva:

• 200 watts RMS/channel into 8 ohms, all channels driven
  • 5 channels - 8 ohm = 200 watts per channel
  • 4 channels - 8 ohm = 230 watts per channel
  • 3 channels - 8 ohm = 250 watts per channel
  • 2 channels - 8 ohm = 275 watts per channel
  • 1 channel - 8 ohm = 300 watts per channel
• 4 ohm rating:
  • 5 channels - 4 ohm = 350 watts per channel
  • 4 channels - 4 ohm = 375 watts per channel
  • 3 channels - 4 ohm = 400 watts per channel
  • 2 channels - 4 ohm = 450 watts per channel
  • 1 channel - 4 ohms = 500 watts per channel

The XPA-5 puts out serious power and the Statements aren't that hard to drive. I can power mine to deafening levels with my 125 wpc Emotiva LPA-1.

However, I didn't think about ribbon case leaks. That is an excellent suggestion. I would thing tightening all of the screws and a bead of hot glue or silicon around the seals on the ribbon would be a good idea.

Jim

[Curt C]

5 channels - 4 ohm = 350 watts per channel

Without knowing the actual SPL and frequency distribution generated during those demos, it is all guesstimation, and I hope air leaks are found to be the root cause of the issue, as that will be an easy 'fix'.

A little calculation indicates that the actual SPL at 350 watts would be 120 dB at 1 meter, or 108 dB at 4 meters. Certainly this is a tolerable SPL in a larger room for those willing to risk hearing damage to obtain 'realistic' levels.

Depending on the source material and source device, the transient peaks could have been much higher. Even with the volume at -10, it is possible the amp still could have clipped, as transients can be easily 20 dB higher than the average SPL.

Fountek recommends 40 watts as a maximum power specification for the NeoCD3.0, which translates to 111 dB SPL / 1 meter. This is apparently calculated assuming a 2.5K 2nd order crossover. Since we are crossing them at a higher crossover frequency and transfer function, I suspect they can run somewhat higher SPL's without excursion or thermal damage.

C

[Jim Holtz]

Without knowing the actual SPL and frequency distribution generated during those demos, it is all guesstimation, and I hope air leaks are found to be the root cause of the issue, as that will be an easy 'fix'.

A little calculation indicates that the actual SPL at 350 watts would be 120 dB at 1 meter, or 108 dB at 4 meters. Certainly this is a tolerable SPL in a larger room for those willing to risk hearing damage to obtain 'realistic' levels.

Depending on the source material and source device, the transient peaks could have been much higher. Even with the volume at -10, it is possible the amp still could have clipped, as transients can be easily 20 dB higher than the average SPL.

Fountek recommends 40 watts as a maximum power specification for the NeoCD3.0, which translates to 111 dB SPL / 1 meter. This is apparently calculated assuming a 2.5K 2nd order crossover. Since we are crossing them at a higher crossover frequency and transfer function, I suspect they can run somewhat higher SPL's without excursion or thermal damage.

C

Well, there you have it. The ;x( "brains" behind the Statements projects puts things in perspective and as always, is dead on target. I honestly didn't realize the Statements could soak up that much power.

I guess I'll not exceed 117 DB with my LPA-1.

Thanks for clarifying the issue Curt.

Jim

[Curt C]

Well, there you have it. The ;x( "brains" behind the Statements projects puts things in perspective and as always, is dead on target. I honestly didn't realize the Statements could soak up that much power.

I guess I'll not exceed 117 DB with my LPA-1.

Thanks for clarifying the issue Curt.

Jim

Yes, I'm so incredibly 'brainy' :rofl: that I forgot to mention that the SPL levels indicated above are absolute maximums and do not take into account the attenuation of the crossover in the Statements. The tweeter's dissipation will be only a small percentage of the total power, and well within the power limitations specified by Fountek. (Presuming the amplifier is not driven into clipping.)

C

[johnnysamoa]

looks like they are damaged....

.....too bad I don't know how it happened! The ribbon elements on both of my L/R sealed mains both are compromised (when idle they vibrate if I blow on them). They are still in tact and suprisingly still sound good (to my ears) up to about -25 or 30, depending on source material.

I ordered replacements from Madisound and will send these in for repairs when i get the new ones installed.

I'm done with the insane demos from now on!!! I'm still convinces that's what did it.

XPA-5 is only driving my LCR, so i've got well enough juice and the statements are an easy drive. I normaly listen around -30. At -10 i was hitting 118dB at listening position.

Regarding leaks......leaks would not result in stretching/compromising my ribbon elements to their current situation, would they? And when we are talking leaks, are we referring to pressure from the RS225s breaching the back enclosure of the Fountek or total pressure leaking from my cab? I neglected to mention from the beginning that my LR are SEALED.

thanks for all the help and re-education. I'll be listening at more reasonable levels in the future.

[Jim Holtz]

.....too bad I don't know how it happened! The ribbon elements on both of my L/R sealed mains both are compromised (when idle they vibrate if I blow on them). They are still in tact and suprisingly still sound good (to my ears) up to about -25 or 30, depending on source material.

I ordered replacements from Madisound and will send these in for repairs when i get the new ones installed.

I'm done with the insane demos from now on!!! I'm still convinces that's what did it.

XPA-5 is only driving my LCR, so i've got well enough juice and the statements are an easy drive. I normaly listen around -30. At -10 i was hitting 118dB at listening position.

Regarding leaks......leaks would not result in stretching/compromising my ribbon elements to their current situation, would they? And when we are talking leaks, are we referring to pressure from the RS225s breaching the back enclosure of the Fountek or total pressure leaking from my cab? I neglected to mention from the beginning that my LR are SEALED.

thanks for all the help and re-education. I'll be listening at more reasonable levels in the future.

Oh my! Considering that sound drops off at 6 DB per meter past the one meter standard, you were REALLY hitting high SPL at you listening position if it's the normal 10'-12'.

Yep, I'd run a bead of hot glue or silicon around the seam of the ribbon after tightening all the screws, just in case. The RS225's pump some serious air so it's entirely possible in a sealed cabinet.

Oh ya, you're not supposed to blow on or vacuum ribbons, even NeoCD's.

Jim

[johnnysamoa]

Fixed my Sealed Statements and added new toy!!! Thanks Jim/Curt

Still no clue how I ruined my ribbons, but I replaced them and they are back with a vengeance!!! Almost forgot how precious these statements are until I had to go back to my Swans for a couple days. They sing like before and despite my earlier promise.......they sing LOUD & CLEAR with no issues!!! I made a slight compromise and programmed a max setting of -18 which is still freakin' loud, but don't want to tempt the audio gods with 118dB listening position irresponsibility again!

Now........onto my new toy! Cambridge Audio DACMagic.

Set it up with balanced out from DAC to L/R unbalanced in on processor's (EMO DMR-1) analog in (bypass). I listened to it like this for about 6 hrs with various music from my library. Well recorded lossless is beautiful and I was happy to find that compressed modern pop is improved as well....wonder if that's the upsampling? I don't care, but I like. My wife's 128 mp3s still sound lousy, but more tollerable, anyway. Didn't notice how the time flew (no listener fatigue!!! Thanks Jim/Curt). As much as I loved the pure 2 channel, the bass-head in me needed to hear some 2.1; so I used one of the unbalanced outs from the DAC concurrently with the balanced outs to the .1 of DMRs analog section and voila......more bottom (not that the Statements are lacking)! Bass management doesn't work since the 7.1 section is bypass on DMR, but it sounds great with my mains left "LARGE". I'll have to do some more critical listening 2.1 vs 2.0 before I decide which will get more playtime. Right now I'm too tired (sleepy, but my ears feel fine) after this 8+hr session.

Very nice upgrade (and I always thought the DACs in DMR sounded great before when switching from Onkyo 805)!!! With DACMagic, separation of instruments is clearly improved. Soundstage has much better detail and the DACMagic really shines on intricate percussion. YYZ never sounded so good! Snare and toms have more snap, high hat is more crisp, crash cymbals and chimes have more air and realistic decay. I think the micro/macro details of upper frequencies get the biggest improvement. The Sealed Statements inherrently have incredible midrange due to their design and components (open back TB W4s) and the bass from dual/sealed RS 225s is tight/spot on for musical bass. That's probably why I don't notice big improvements in the mids and bass (other than separation) with the outboard DACS. The Fountek ribbons are what really benefit most from the DACMagic.

This is my first experience using an outboard DAC and I'm quite impressed. And no............i don't hear an appreciable difference nor advocate designer cables and other various snake oil!!! I already experienced the difference in 2 channel audio when switching from Onk (hated the rolled off highs when using Audyssey......and hated the shrill upper end with Aud dissengaged) to EMO separates (DMR and XPA-5) and was slightly concerned that I wouldn't notice an appreciable improvement with an outboard DAC........these concerns were erased during the past 8 hrs!

This upgrade made a bigger impact than moving to XPA-5 power from using the DMR-1 onboard amps. Now I really need to try the XPA-2 or even XPA-1s!

Only letdown is/was I didn't get any significant expansion/widening of my soundstage. Maybe the complete balanced (from DAC to output) signal will improve this. That will have to wait for the XMC (new EMO processor out sometime next year)! I still haven't tried the coax vs optical (that i'm using) from transport to DAC. I'll try that later, but I'd doubt i'll hear any difference with the short runs less than 6ft.

Best $400 dollar upgrade i've ever experienced.......short of my changing from ONK to EMO and of course the biggest upgrade.....my irreplaceable STATEMENTS!!!!!

Thanks Jim/Curt and happy holidays to all

[---k---]

Only letdown is/was I didn't get any significant expansion/widening of my soundstage.

You should try experimenting more with room placement. Sometimes you can really change the soundstage by getting just the right reflections from the side and/or front wall.

[Curt C]

Still no clue how I ruined my ribbons, but I replaced them and they are back with a vengeance!!! Almost forgot how precious these statements are until I had to go back to my Swans for a couple days.

I'm glad to hear you have resolved the issue Johnny, and a Merry Christmas to you, and to all, as well.

C