Choosing a design to build

[peter_m]

I've comming to this forum for over a year now and I have decided to build! X-mas vacation is coming so I will have the time and my finances now permit my indulgence... but I'm paralysed. Which to choose. For music listening without a sub, which of the following should I build? I also plan to extend the baffle vertically into a floor stander. But the question remains, which should I choose?

Zaph's SR-71 sounds solid to me but prices of Seas drives have skyrocketed in Canada. I would have to order from the US and at this point, Zaph's ZDT3.5 would only cost me 100$ more. MurphyBlaster's Usher 2-way is also close to the price... The speakers will be used in a 14'x19' room but might be moved to a smaller 14'x14' room later next year. Which of these 4 designs? Any thoughts, comments or suggestions?

Peter

PS: If anyone has time to kill and is interested in spending the time to design it, I would ideally want Zaph's Waveguide TMM updated for the SB17NRX35 to bring costs down :lol: , but I know I am dreaming... 8O

[Jed]

PS: If anyone has time to kill and is interested in spending the time to design it, I would ideally want Zaph's WGTMM updated for the SB17NRX35 to bring costs down :lol: , but I know I am dreaming... 8O

I'd take a peak at the Mission Accomplished Section. As for the SB Acoustics, how about an MTM SB 5" system? Or an TMW? Both of which I'm finishing up some designs.

Also, none of Jay's speakers use his own measurements. They are simulations based on Zaph's IB driver tests and not measured in an actual box- which is the single most important thing a designer can do for speaker development. You can be the judge of whether or not that matters to you.

I'd rather go with a proven design that you know was measured appropriately and listened to: Selah Audio, Jon Marsh, CJD, Curt, Augerpro, etc.

Jed

[peter_m]

Hi Jed,

I'm not not interested in an MTM. But a TMW is not out of the question. I know what you mean about Jay's designs. I'm sure he puts allot of effort and time into them but I have to admit I am not completely comfortable spending that much money on drivers to follow a design based on second hand measurements. I had forgotten about the Modula MT...

So I have Zaph's SR-71 & ZDT3.5, Denis Muphy's Usher 2-way and Jon Marsh's Modula MT...

Peter

[cotdt]

What do you have against a sub? A 2-way w/sub is the closest thing to a 3-way, but cheaper and more convenient as they can be made small and portable (and disposable). All the designs on this site, as well as those of its contributors, are really good. I know because I've built many of them before I started to build my own designs. For starters, I would recommend Zaph's ZD5. It doesn't need a sub but you can add one. Smaller drivers have better midrange clarity generally speaking.

[peter_m]

What do you have against a sub? ...I would recommend Zaph's ZD5. It doesn't need a sub but you can add one.

Nothing against a sub except for the extra space, extra cost for sub-amp and the fact that my music doesn't require that much base... Ad to that the fact that I like the look of narrow tower, so might as well use that space for something... like TMM or a TMW...

Zaph's ZD5 and ZRT are out of my budget... My post above are referring to the ZDT3.5. Typos fixed.

Peter

[cotdt]

Ah well if you don't need the deep bass then any 2-way would do. My ModulaMT is flat down to 40Hz and still has some output in the low 30's. It was one of my earlier projects, it sounds absolutely wonderful but I'm not a fan of metal cones. Others are, though.

If I were to build a high-end value system today, knowing my personal preferences, I would go for Jed's MTM SB 5". I also have a Peerless Exclusive MT design (with Peerless HDS tweeter) that I've built and sounds wonderful, if you're interested, PM me.

[peter_m]

...My ModulaMT... ...sounds absolutely wonderful but I'm not a fan of metal cones....

...I also have a Peerless Exclusive MT design (with Peerless HDS tweeter) that I've built and sounds wonderful...

You are not a fan of the metal cones because of the design difficulty or the sound of metal drivers? I am surprised not more people posting projects based on the Peerless...

Peter

[cotdt]

Not a fan of the metal cones because of the design difficulty or the sound of metal drivers?

Peter

The sound, or rather the perception of it. Don't get me wrong, metal cones sound very neutral, but the sound is more upfront. The soundstage is narrower than paper cones, perhaps as it should be, as most recordings are either close-mic'ed or recorded at relatively close distance from the performers. However, I prefer the wider soundstage and increased depth of paper cones, even if it may be artificial (likely to be induced from standing waves on the cone). To me it just sounds more natural.

[Hdale85]

I haven't noticed any of the characteristics you describe in the TB W4-1337SA.

[Mudjock]

If you are looking for a larger MT, I have a design that uses the HiVi 6.8 and Seas H1499 DXT waveguide tweeter. It is called the "Shrubbery". The design is posted here - you can search for my recent posts. Some others here heard it in Iowa this year, so you can hopefully solicit some unbiased opinions (and view the judging results if you follow the link from the design thread).

[cotdt]

I haven't noticed any of the characteristics you describe in the TB W4-1337SA.

I've not heard the TangBand so I can't comment, but all the metal cones that I have heard sound more upfront than the better known paper cones, though papers cones can sound upfront too. Have you heard the Peerless Exclusives? The soundstage is so wide that the speaker just seems to disappear and you can't even tell where the sound is coming from. Some of the other paper cones can do this also, but I've never had this effect from metal cones. My friends made the same observations, so it's not just me.

These are all generalizations and there will probably be exceptions though.

[ThomasW]

Ya know something Peter? At some point you really need to bite the bullet and build something. So we don't have the same threads over, and over, and over, and over....

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=28145

[blue934]

cotdt, you have PM.

blue934

[peter_m]

Ya know something Peter? At some point you really need to bite the bullet and build something.

Sorry for the repetition ThomasW, you do have a point. I also know that Solen has recently increased Seas drivers by 25% just as I am getting my bullet and my teeth ready to bite... The SR-71 is what I was aiming for but now that it costs almost the same as the ZDT3.5...

Peter

[Jed]

Hi Jed,

I'm not not interested in an MTM. But a TMW is not out of the question.
Peter

My new 3 way uses the XT25 double magnet, SB 5", RS270s and costs $599 for all drivers and crossovers for a pair. A good 3 way will always sounds better than a little 2 way given equal quality drivers.

[Jed]

Y I am surprised not more people posting projects based on the Peerless...

Peter

I'm not, Tymphany is not good about getting these exclusive drivers to madisound. I would have loved to use the 881 or 882 drivers but when will they be back in stock when they need to be? Just not worth it even if they sound good. There are plenty of other drivers out there... SB 5, W4 etc.

[Undefinition]

Go with the Dennis Murphy Usher design. Metal cones may be more "accurate," but those paper pulp cones have some sort of magic properties hidden in them :B Plus, Dennis' crossovers are, in my opinion, the most "musical" out there. (not that Jon Marsh and Jed are any sort ofslouches )

[Jed]

Go with the Dennis Murphy Usher design. Metal cones may be more "accurate," but those paper pulp cones have some sort of magic properties hidden in them :B Plus, Dennis' crossovers are, in my opinion, the most "musical" out there. (not that Jon Marsh and Jed are any sort ofslouches )

Thanks Paul. Dennis usually features low order slopes which do sound better if the driver can handle it. A lot of my new designs feature the same concepts.

[Jed]

PS: If anyone has time to kill and is interested in spending the time to design it, I would ideally want Zaph's Waveguide TMM updated for the SB17NRX35 to bring costs down :lol: , but I know I am dreaming... 8O

I was just thinking that I may be able to do this for you under the right conditions. email me clearwavespeakers(at)gmail(dot)com

[jkrutke]

I was just thinking that I may be able to do this for you under the right conditions. email me clearwavespeakers(at)gmail(dot)com

I'll watch with interest as you hammer the SB17's response curve into 2nd order. :B

[jkrutke]

Ya know something Peter? At some point you really need to bite the bullet and build something. So we don't have the same threads over, and over, and over, and over....
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=28145

I have to agree. Anyone fretting for over a year about which design to build already has so much doubt in their mind that they will probably never be happy. I hope Peter doesn't pick one of my designs. (sorry Peter, no offense)

I generally dislike these "which design is best" threads. I'd much rather see people ask "Which characteristics in a design would suit me best? My listening room looks like (this), I'm going to put my speakers (here), and I like (this) kind of music and (this) level of output, and I'd like to spend (this) much money."

[Jed]

I'll watch with interest as you hammer the SB17's response curve into 2nd order. :B

Ha ha.. the 5" was hard enough (sorta :B ). I'd likely take a different approach than you and use the DXT waveguide tweeter. Agree LR2 might take a bit of creativity/billion parts.

[peter_m]

I officially regret opening this thread but what is done is done. Zaph I don't wan to annoy anyone with my questions... Not even you Zaph! But I was planning on building your SR-71 until the drivers jumped in price by 25% in November. I noticed it when I starting to look for a local supplier for veneer and thinking about different finishes. Is there anything wrong in weighing all your options when prices change?

But you do have a point on the way I asked my question. Maybe I can aggregate the info in one single post, ad the missing details and then if anyone else is annoyed I will ask the thread to be closed and we can all go back to x-mass shopping madness...

Amp is capable of driving a 4ohm load. I don't want a sub. 100% music listening, no HT. I love the look of a floor standing speaker so I will extend baffle vertically.

Current Room is 14x19, speakers will be along the short wall. (might move to a smaller apartment so the room might shrink a little but it remains an unknown variable)

Listening level: 70% of the time will be moderate, loud enough to drown out ambient noises and enjoy the music while a little too loud to talk on the pone. 20% of he time will be background music. 10% of time I will be blasting it for some specific songs when the mood strikes.

Music is a mix of modern and classic rock, ad to that some Jazz with female/male vocals, Motown and some electronic-techno-crap. They are in a declining order of priority.

Budget, well it's about $400-$500 without enclosure. Here are the designs I am considering: Zaph's SR-71, ZDT3.5 and Denis Murphy's Usher 2-way.

I am still leaning toward the SR-71 but as long as I am extending the baffle, might as well consider the ZDT3.5. How differently would the ZDT3.5 behave compared to the SR-71 or the Usher? How does the Usher tweeter(9950) compare to the 27TDFC?

Which design has the characteristics that will suit my needs best?

Peter

[jkrutke]

Which design has the characteristics that will suit my needs best?

Then we get to another one of my issues - I never push anyone build any of my designs. (if you want, I'll help you pick someone elses design ) You do have some good info posted there and it should help people point you towards a design that's best for you. I'll let other impartial persons take it from here. Thanks for not flipping out about my previous comments. I know I can come across as harsh occasionally.

[benchtester]

My new 3 way uses the XT25 double magnet, SB 5", RS270s and costs $599 for all drivers and crossovers for a pair. A good 3 way will always sounds better than a little 2 way given equal quality drivers.

This looks like a high value configuration for a full range speaker. Can someone offer subjective listening impressions of the SB 5" compared to the ScanSpeak 15W Revelators? Is the SB 5" the value alternative to the Revelators?

[---k---]

I hope Peter doesn't pick one of my designs. (sorry Peter, no offense)

John, I once posted the same thing about my Khanspires. A guy was looking for lots of bass. Someone suggested the Khan's because of the dual RS225s. I got the impression that he was looking for club/party speakers. If so, he would have been dissapointed. I got mocked. But, I hear where you are coming from.

[peter_m]

...Then we get to another one of my issues - I never push anyone build any of my designs...

A father loves all his children equally? How about pointing out differences rather then pushing?

...if you want, I'll help you pick someone else's design...

I do... any info you can offer I am all ears.

Anyhow, about flipping out... I was about to build when prices changed on me.... and I am aware of how this looks from the forum's point of view. No flipping out required here.

Peter

[Hdale85]

Most of the designs on this forum and on Clearwave and Zaphs websites all have the same goal in mind from a general perspective. They all shoot for as flat as can be FR. Some of them sound better because of how they get there and what not (LR2 vs LR4 and such). Really probably just about anything you do decide to build is going to sound excellent. Even the NatP's sound great the many times I've heard them and they are considered a budget speaker. I've built a couple of Jed's speakers and have been impressed each time. Zaph's speakers have always intrigued me as well and pretty good possibility I will eventually build one. I've actually heard the Seas L18 / Seas 27TBFCG of his and they sound amazingly good! They can't be cranked to much though as we found out haha. But around 80-87dB they sound excellent really an awesome speaker.

[Jed]

This looks like a high value configuration for a full range speaker. Can someone offer subjective listening impressions of the SB 5" compared to the ScanSpeak 15W Revelators? Is the SB 5" the value alternative to the Revelators?

I compared the Duet10SS to my new M5W speaker and while the SB5" is smooth and detailed the SS is just the best mid I've ever heard. It really wasn't fair though, I had the best crossover parts available on the Duet10SS and the SS6600 as a tweeter, which may be the best tweeter available at any price. The SS6600 has all the detail of the best ribbons but can actually cross lower than 4k. :B

I'd have to compare the SB 5" WITH a SS6600 tweeter and the same woofer for it to be fair. The summed responses with shallow crossovers really make it difficult to weigh in which driver is contributing the most to the final perception of sound quality.

There is always going to be a point of diminishing returns with expensive drivers. Some are willing to pay that extra $200 per driver to get that last breath of detail, others find it wasteful. So if you are the type that wants the best..... Scanspeak.

Jed

[Finleyville]

I've actually heard the Seas L18 / Seas 27TBFCG of his and they sound amazingly good! They can't be cranked to much though as we found out haha. But around 80-87dB they sound excellent really an awesome speaker.

Dougie, I believe when you heard my L18's that they were wired in reverse polarity. They were too bright and didn't handle the extra power that I think they can. But it is a testament to Zaph's designs that they can sound great even hooked up wrong! :T

[Hdale85]

Yeah I forgot about that... even so though they are going to be more (for lack of a better word in my head) fragile then things like the NatP's or what I have haha. Either way definitely excellent speaker although maybe not as dynamic as I like.