My HT Setup: Need finishing help

[NateTTU]

Here are a few pictures of my current setup. I've had it like this way for quite a while now and I would really like to finish up both the speakers and the room. I plan on building a new black tv stand to hold the center and either build or buy a shelf to put in the closet to hold all of the equipment. The room will probably end up being a dark tan with black on the trim, closet, and entrance doors.

I need your help/opinions on what to do with my speakers. BTW, a sealed Mal-X is in the works and will be located in the corner where the LPA-1 currently sits.

The original plan was to place the figured makore veneer on the front and do a piano gloss black on the sides and back. However, I'm leaning more towards a lighter color veneer like maple or anigre with a matte or even bedliner sides. I can't afford to pay for the sheets of paperbacked veneer and looked at the raw cheaper stuff on ebay to get some of the more exotic looks such as currly and fiddleback. I also don't have a vacuum and can't justify the cost to buy one so I don't know how I could apply it on otherwise. BTW, I have never worked with veneer before.

I included some pictures of the look I would like to achieve with either going with the bedliner or the matte black. I currently tried using some Zinsser 1-2-3 sealer with Krylon spray paint but apparently this type of sealer is not sandable as it just kinda rolls off and never creates a smooth surface. I'm thinking the bedliner would be a much easier route and the results actually seem to look pretty good.

The ultimate goal is to make it look good at least better than the bare mdf/glue apparance they have now. I can't afford great right now, but in the future I may look at redoing them with a very nice veneer all around. During the Thanksgiving and Christmas breaks is when I'm looking at completing most of this project. Any recommendations would be appreciated.

Nate

[NateTTU]

The rest of the pictures.

I really liked the way Rolex's speakers turned out and spoke with him about his methods. He uses the much cheaper raw veneers but he uses the vacuum method. The last picture is a finish I would like to achieve with the veneer.

[Rolex]

I really liked the way Rolex's speakers turned out and spoke with him about his methods. He uses the much cheaper raw veneers but he uses the vacuum method. The last picture is a finish I would like to achieve with the veneer.

Hi Nate,
Thanks for the compliments. Interestingly enough, you picked the one project I did without a vacuum press. That particular speaker was done with a wood backed veneer. Plain old boring cherry with a precatalyzed lacquer finish. Cherry naturally has some slight figuring to it, which I think you might be noticing in this picture. (and was magnified by the flash of the camera)

This project used the iron on method. PVA glue on the substrate and the veneer, let dry, put two together, and iron on. Very simple, very straight forward. Tough to screw up. And cherry is much cheaper than anigre or makore. One sheet of 4x8 in a thick wood back cost about 60 bucks. If you want to go that route, I can point you to my source for backed veneers. They ship all over the country...

One of the negatives with backed veneer is the edge detail. You can always see the backing material. In your case, it doesn't sound like it would matter though, since the sides will be painted dark.

[Xander]

For the black I would look at Rustoleum textured black spray cans with a poly satin clear coat. Head over to Zaph Audio (www.zaphaudio.com) and look at his speakers. Almost all his baffles are painted this way. I recently did my speakers with this finish and it turned out great. The texture is like 400-600 grit sandpaper. You can control the texture a bit with spraying distance and number of coats.

here are my speakers (I also did a lot of wood filler to smooth it all out and used minwax sealer to seal all the mdf. sanded to 220 before any priming or painting. primed with the gray sandable automotive primer)

[impala454]

Nate I don't think you need to do anything. The whole room looks amazing with that blanket and pillow

(excuse me while I cry again over this past Saturday)

(ok done)

Seriously though please make sure you do lots of pictures & updates as I'm very interested in what you do to finish these suckers up.

Xander: How many coats of sealer did it take before you were set to spray the paint? Did you apply the sealer with a brush? Also how many coats of the paint did you end up with?

[Xander]

Xander: How many coats of sealer did it take before you were set to spray the paint? Did you apply the sealer with a brush? Also how many coats of the paint did you end up with?[/QUOTE]

Minwax sealer: 2 full coats on entire box, 4 coats on any endgrain and roundovers. With a brush (don't get the cheapest brush, the bristles will come out. Learned that the hard way). I didn't sand between coats. I suppose you could if you wanted. I did each coat a different direction so the brush stroke pattern ended up as a crosshatch.

Sanded to 220, then 400 by hand, very lightly, so as not to remove all the sealer. Just enough to get it smooth. The box felt really hard and smooth though, like it was just a solid chunk. Hard to explain.

Make sure to use tack cloth to get rid of all the powder whenever you sand. Otherwise the next coat of whatever won't stick or will have chunks in it. An air compressor would be nice too, but I didn't have one.

3-4 coats of the automotive primer. I actually didn't sand after this. I figured since my paint was textured, it wouldn't hurt for my primer to have some texture. The paint seemed to stick fine, no problems. If you want a smoother finish you should probably sand after priming, down to at least 220. Probably 400 would make the finish even smoother.

Then 4 coats of the rustoleum textured black. It's a pretty flat finish. Don't sand after this (duh)

Then 3 coats of Minwax Satin Poly water based clear coat. Gives a slight sheen, smooths it out, and protects the paint.

Most of you are probably way more experienced with painting than I am, but here's what I learned about spray painting large surfaces:

The real important part with all this is the spraying. Get a handle for the spray cans. It's cheap. And start and end spraying when off the part. Stay at least 8 inches off the box. Change direction between coats to avoid zebra striping (I messed up a bit, you can see the side of my box has slight blotching cause I didn't do this right).

If you do it right, spray can finishes can look great.

[NateTTU]

Chuck,

Yea I feel ya, this past weekend really sucked. I will try to update with more pictures as the room gets going.

Xander,

Thanks for the suggestion. I've seen some bedliner projects turn out way too rough and "shiny" and they really don't look very good so that was a concern. This is definately something I will try. I wanted something with a little texture but not much. How do you think this holds up compared to the bedliner? I probably won't bother with any type of top coat. Also, could I just use some sealer/primer all in one thing? How much do you think you needed for your speakers? I know that some of the textured sprays can cost quite a bit and I would think I would need at least two coats per speaker and thats a lot of area. Not sure how many cans I would use but probably around 20 if not more.

Rolex,

Thats cool, I just picked that picture because I thought it showed off your finish really well. If I really had a choice I would go with your fiddleback anigre if possible but that cherry looks outstanding. I'm still not sure what I'm going to do, but I plan on playing around with my figured makore veneer at least some before giving up on using raw veneer.

Has anyone here had any luck with raw veneer without the add of a vacuum?

Nate

[Xander]

I have actually been looking at bedliner because I'm building a large sub soon. Here's what I found out:

If you bring your sub to a place to get it done professionaly (linex or rhino usually) it will be very "rough and shiny." Huge texture. Very ugly in my opinion. Tough though.

However, the Duplicolor and Plastikote SRPAY-ON bedliner looks very nice. It is very similar to my speaker finish, so I'm considering it for my sub. Again, it's mostly about spray technique. You can make it rougher with more coats, smoother with less.

In the middle would be the roll on stuff. It depends on the roller though. I'm sure someone can prove me wrong by posting a pic of a roll on bedliner speaker with a very smooth finish. But I think they're usually a bit rougher than the sprayon (in a can, not professional).

As far as my speakers go, here's what I used for THREE SPEAKERS that you see in the pic (20.5x12x7.5, or very close to that). Prices are from memory, may be off a bit
-A small container of wood filler ($5)
-Half of a 1-quart can of minwax sealer ($8 per can)
-Paint brush ($3)
-3 cans of primer ($4 per can)
-3 cans of textured spray paint ($6 per can)
-2 cans of satin poly finish ($7 per can)
-A butt-load of sandpaper ($15?)

So altogether maybe $70. For all 3 speakers. Not including minor tools necessary or equipment to hang them from the rafters in my garage while painting )

As far as the sealer/primer, I would say it could work as long as you make sure it specifically says it seals end grain on wood. Not just "seals drywall" or "seals wood filler." End grain is a different monster. There is one spot on one of my speakers on the roundover where you can see I didn't hit it with filler enough and/or sanded off too much sealer. Primer wouldn't even cover the grain. It shows up as a lighter spot with very little texture.

[NateTTU]

Thanks for the help Xander.

Its been a while, but I finally got around to reading some threads about veneering and it began jogging my memory again. It just seems there really is no cheap way of getting a decent finish. Raw veneer seems to be a joke. Even this texture spray on method is going to get expensive with the amount of cans I will need to cover all the speakers. I'm debating on just buying the plain cherry, but it would still cost me about $200 for the veneer alone and being my first time I doubt it would turn out that great.

If anyone has anything else to suggest please let me know. For now, I will be thinking about my options and try to come up with a solution.

Nate

[Jim Holtz]

Thanks for the help Xander.

Its been a while, but I finally got around to reading some threads about veneering and it began jogging my memory again. It just seems there really is no cheap way of getting a decent finish. Raw veneer seems to be a joke. Even this texture spray on method is going to get expensive with the amount of cans I will need to cover all the speakers. I'm debating on just buying the plain cherry, but it would still cost me about $200 for the veneer alone and being my first time I doubt it would turn out that great.

If anyone has anything else to suggest please let me know. For now, I will be thinking about my options and try to come up with a solution.

Nate

Hi Nate,

Check out TAPEASE 10mil paper back veneer. They have several varieties for under $40 a 4'x8' sheet. Statements do require 3 sheets however. Veneering is really easy using the the iron on method and will cover much better than any kind of paint.

Jim

[cobblepots]

I second TAPEASE, they're products are reasonably priced and their customer service very good. Word of advice for veneer shipments, make sure you are there for the package deliver as any shipping damage may have to be marked by the deliver man. I was not and the package was damaged in transit. However, TAPEASE was very reasonable and shipped a new one at no cost and paid for the return of the damage product.

I am in the process of using their Mottled Makore for my mini's monitors, and center. I was able to fit one 4X8 sheet on all 5 speakers by painting the back with a textured paint and doing a laquor to the fronts. The idea was to allow more budget for a nicer wood but the paint ended up costing me about $70 in total anyways... However, they do have fantasic conrast from this method. Hopefully I'll be done with them before the Batman movie's release but with vacation coming up I may not be done. I'll post pictures as soon as I am done!

[NateTTU]

Thanks guys. Which is better to buy from, tapease or oakwood?

I'm thinking of going with maple for its lighter color and I think it would provide a good contrast between the front baffle and the black sides. The paperbacked version is going to give me a lot less headaches since I don't have access to some of the tools necessary to work with the raw veneer.

Does anyone have any pictures of a completed project using plain maple? I've seen a couple around, but the pictures are hard to see any detail. I like the color of maple, but I'm hoping to find out if the flat cut has any sort of character.

My goal is to have some kind of figure, but I also want to stay away from the traditional grain look as shown in the pic. Some people like it, but I personally don't care for it too much.

BTW, I know the second picture is a maple that I really like, but is it curly or something?

Nate

[Rolex]

Nate, the two pics you posted are of different material. The first is a picture of oak hardwood flooring. My guess would be red oak, but with those exposed rays in that one board, it could be white oak (stained of course). The second picture is figured maple. There are generally two types of figured maple. Curly or fiddbleback, and bird's eye. Both command a premium price and you can pay upwards of $200 per sheet of 4x8 veneer.

Maple is a closed grain wood, so it will never look like the first picture you posted. Maple and cherry have similar grain patterns when they are flat cut.

[NateTTU]

Sorry I kinda forgot about this thread, things got busy. I'm still planning on doing a black matte finish on all the sides and veneer only on the font. I'm in the process of trying different painting techniques right now, but it looks like I will only need 1 sheet of veneer for the speakers if I go this route. The prices between Tapeease and Oakwood are pretty close so I was wondering, which one usually provides a better overall product? I'm thinking of going ahead and ordering a sheet and get to work on these during Christmas sometime. I noticed Oakwood has a 22mil version but is the 10mil usually good enough for the iron on method?

...
Maple is a closed grain wood, so it will never look like the first picture you posted. Maple and cherry have similar grain patterns when they are flat cut.

Rolex,

Thanks, thats what I needed to know. It sounds like its what I'm looking for.

Nate

[David_D]

Hi Nate,
As far as veneer goes, if you’re going to iron-on use the 10 mil paperbacked. This will bend easier over the radii. This brings me to another comment. I'm assuming that when you say veneer the fronts that you plan on stopping the veneer after the 3/4" radii. I'm a little concerned that the veneer will lift if there is not a sufficient run across the sides to keep the veneer on the radius.

[dpc rep]

Hi Nate,
As far as veneer goes, if you’re going to iron-on use the 10 mil paperbacked. This will bend easier over the radii. This brings me to another comment. I'm assuming that when you say veneer the fronts that you plan on stopping the veneer after the 3/4" radii. I'm a little concerned that the veneer will lift if there is not a sufficient run across the sides to keep the veneer on the radius.

not only is this a realistic concern, but if you only wrap the front baffles, you will still have to smooth out and taper the edge of the veneer from the front baffles from the speaker. If you are able to successfully wrap the veneer around the front baffles and onto the sides of the baffle and if the veneer is only 1/32nd inch thick (spec for 10 mil paperback), that still translates to over 31 mils (31 thousandths of an inch) which is going to be difficult, to say the least, to fill with a film only coating. One sixteenth of an inch is .0625 inch, or 62 mils. To finish the sides, you will have to apply some sort of filler and taper it to the back corners of the cabinet. Obviously, if you are applying a textured finish, this will be less important but still required to prevent the sides from appearing "scalloped" from front to back.

[Rolex]

You could tape off the edge and use bondo to taper down from the veneer. I would not try to taper the veneer. The paper backing is what you will be left with.

[NateTTU]

I used a chamfered edge instead of the roundover. I preferred that look personally and I was told it wouldn't make any difference. I will just veneer the front face and the chamfer so it will end at a corner and shouldn't give me too much headache.

Last night I just noticed Oakwood had a sale on figured maple for a very good price. Too bad it was already sold out! Maybe next time.

[David_D]

I used a chamfered edge instead of the roundover. I preferred that look personally and I was told it wouldn't make any difference. I will just veneer the front face and the chamfer so it will end at a corner and shouldn't give me too much headache.

Last night I just noticed Oakwood had a sale on figured maple for a very good price. Too bad it was already sold out! Maybe next time.

Ahh. Chamfered.
Although I have never worked with raw veneer. It is much thinner and may make your transition less noticable. OTOH, if you plan on doing the sides matt black like you mentioned before I bet the edge of the paperbacked will be barely noticable.

[NateTTU]

This was the look I was going for, same color and everything:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php?p=277391&postcount=18

He used mahogany so I thought about going with that, but it seems that since veneer is a natural product, most other places list mahogany as a much much darker wood than what turned out for him.

Has anyone used bandit veneer before? A 2x8 roll is just about as expensive as a single sheet of 4x8 from tapeease, but the problem I have with ordering online is I really want to see it before I buy. I know oakwood as a good return policy, but I need it by the 27th or so and I don't have time to buy and send back multiple sheets until I find the one I really like.

I looked around and I couldn't find any places around me that would sell veneer. The bandit that Home Depot and Lowes carries is as close as I will find around here.

[David_D]

You have to look to specialty or cabinet shops for local veneers.
FWIW: Watch how the grain runs. The Bandit stuff runs in the two foot direction. Although with your 'sandwich' plan that may very well work for you.
Those pics you linked to are really mohogany? It looks more like maple or a light cherry.

[Rolex]

Those photos do look like Mahagony. It will darken over time. You can try woodcraft here:

14380 Marsh Ln
Addison, TX 75001
(972) 241-0701


They carry some veneer, though seem to be more expensive than other places. But, with them being local, you could at least see what you are buying.

[NateTTU]

I went to Lowe's to look at their stock and they only had red oak that was already preglued. Looks like buying any paperbacked veneer was going to be a special order item only and was $125 or more for a 4x8 sheet. Since I wouldn't even get the chance to look at it before I bought, it was definately not a good choice.

David,

If you look through that forum at the first post he said it was a mahogany plywood that was veneered on both sides. I do have to agree it does seem very light, it did seem much darker in his first post. It does make me think if I would like a cherry more. What I don't understand is why a 4x8 sheet of plywood that is veneered on both sides can be less expensive than a single sheet of plain veneer. I should have used that to make the speakers instead.

Rolex,

Thanks for the link. Addison would be about a 50 minute drive, so definately doable. Looks like its about $85 for a sheet of cherry or mohogany, about the same price of a single sheet from oakwood with shipping included. I may go check out that place.

BTW, woodcraft seems to sell a version of both cherry and mohogany called quartersawn. Seems pretty nice in the pictures, but I haver to ask what does that mean? It makes the veneer look a lot darker. The pics below show the difference for the cherry veneer.

Nate

[Rolex]

Quartersawn is typically more expensive than plain slice. It has to do with the way the veneer is processed from the log. Quartersawn is known to produce fleck rays better than plain slice. See the red oak wood flooring picture you posted above. There is one board that shows rays. Also, quartersawn is less prone to movement, which is not an issue when using veneer.

Plain slice is sliced off the outside of the log, quartersawn cuts the log in four pieces pie shaped along the length, then sliced.

Honestly, I would not worry too much about seeing it in person if you are not buying figured material. I think you will be pleased if you buy from a reputable vendor.

[NateTTU]

Thanks Rolex. I'm assuming that flake rays are kinda like figuring of the veneer. I like some figure and thats strange at this place its about $15 cheaper per sheet for the quatersawn version.

I'm positive I would be satisfied with the quality I would receive from the online sites, the only problem I have is getting the shade of color that I'm looking for. The same wood at one site doesn't always look like the same shade at another, since it is a natural product, and I have never bought any before, I figured it would be easier for me to pick in person. David seemed pretty suprised those pictures were of mahogany which is why I may lean a little more to cherry based upon what I find at the store.

Since I'm planning on using your finishing techqniue, does it tend to make the wood darker? What about over time? I liked that look of the quatersawn cherry shown in the right picture, but it may get too dark depending on what the finishing does.

Nate

[Rolex]

every wood chages color over time. dark woods get and light woods get dark. I would not say that finishing technique darkens the wood any more than another. if you are going with cherry, it will all look pretty much the same as most of it is heart wood. quartesawn does not always guarantee figurng. But in big enough quantities, all cherry has a touch of figuring. that is evident by looking at my floor standing speakers you posted above.

You had mentiond veneer covered plywood. That can be difficult to work with especially when it come to corners. In addition, the two sides are rarely both 'A' sides. so you usually get only one good side, and that veneer is usually much thinner that straight veneer, which means it is real easy to sand through.

it sounds like you are fairly concerned about seeing the veneer, so I think your best bet is to stop by woodcraft and take a look at them before you buy. I think it will be impressed.

[Dennis H]

Brian Bunge used the figured cherry from tapeease. I think it looks really nice.

[NateTTU]

So I finally have a few days off work and some of the speakers are here with me at my parents house and ready to be finished. The veneer should be coming sometime early next week and I hope to get a lot accomplished on my speakers. One problem we have encountered on some of our test pieces is the pourous surface of mdf. Even when we sanded with up to 600 grit paper, after the primer and then paint it never really filled in those holes. They are very tiny, but still noticeable when you look at it pretty closely. The end grain on mdf is even worse. We have tried some wood filler, but it doesn't really seem to do the trick. Is bondo really the only way to go on this? I would like to look for something that might be a little easier to use and perhaps a little less toxic. I read in a recent thread, wood finishing question, that their is a 2 part poly putty that is easier to work with. Does anyone know what this is and how it works? The wood filler may work with multiple applications, but I wasn't sure if there was something that would be easier.

Merry Christmas everyone!

Nate

[Jim Holtz]

So I finally have a few days off work and some of the speakers are here with me at my parents house and ready to be finished. The veneer should be coming sometime early next week and I hope to get a lot accomplished on my speakers. One problem we have encountered on some of our test pieces is the pourous surface of mdf. Even when we sanded with up to 600 grit paper, after the primer and then paint it never really filled in those holes. They are very tiny, but still noticeable when you look at it pretty closely. The end grain on mdf is even worse. We have tried some wood filler, but it doesn't really seem to do the trick. Is bondo really the only way to go on this? I would like to look for something that might be a little easier to use and perhaps a little less toxic. I read in a recent thread, wood finishing question, that their is a 2 part poly putty that is easier to work with. Does anyone know what this is and how it works? The wood filler may work with multiple applications, but I wasn't sure if there was something that would be easier.

Merry Christmas everyone!

Nate

Hi Nate,

This is what I do. I bondo end grain and then seal the speaker with Zinzers Bullseye sealer which is really dewaxed shellac. Sand lightly and then start the prime/sand process. This is just like a car finish. You prime and sand until the finish is perfect before applying the top coats.

Jim

[NateTTU]

I've got a couple of questions.

My dad and I are still working on getting these done but its only on Saturdays now so it will take a little while longer. We sanded and primed the boxes but I must say that even after 3 heavy coats of Killz original it still seems to soak it up. The texture left on the box seems a little different in some places. Just spraying it on leaves it with a little texture but it seems that other parts of the box still haven't sealed up quite yet. How many coats of this stuff does it take?

For the top coat we are planning on using some Ink Black Behr Flat Enamel. I think the paint is too thick to spray but it can be reduced slightly with water and we will see how it goes. My last question is this: whether we choose to spray or roll with a foam roller how do we achieve a consitant finish? I don't mind having a texture on the surface and actually prefer some, but I just want it to be the same and most importantly not to streak. Our primer seems to streak and I don't want this on the top coats.

Nate