New Driver Tests: SB Acoustics, Scans, Seas, and others

[dlr]

Zaph has the SB29 measurements, I believe they are accurate, no?

I forgot that he had the new one. It's better than the SB25 untouched, but still has a fair rise above 10K in addition to some irregularities below 10K. The SB25 can be smoothed quite a bit at the expense if creating a bit of a peak at the low end that can be equalized with the crossover. Without tweaking the SB25, the SB29 is better. With a tweak, I question the advantage of the SB29. I suspect that the SB29 can't be tweaked that is unfortunate.

Dave

[Jed]

I forgot that he had the new one. It's better than the SB25 untouched, but still has a fair rise above 10K in addition to some irregularities below 10K.

Dave

The SB29 I tested has about 2dbs rise above 10k that flattens out around 10degrees off axis. Since a lot of people are not too good with their hearing above 12k I doubt they will notice. In fact, they may find it pleasing to get a little boost. It also has very low harmonic distortion.

[Mark K]

I've been sidetracked for the past 2 weeks, but am back/so to speak. Look for some test results on my blog for a pair of these sometime over the weekend.

mark

[Jed]

I've been sidetracked for the past 2 weeks, but am back/so to speak. Look for some test results on my blog for a pair of these sometime over the weekend.

mark

Cool... they were just in the VC magazine as well.

[Mark K]

Maybe I'm not well afterall...

Cool... they were just in the VC magazine as well.

Oh, Cr*p, I posted in the wrong thread. I guess this means I have to order a dimple dome ops:

Actually, I have been very interested in the dimple dome, So I'll order one up from MAD.

I meant to post in the ZA14 thread! I've got a pair of Zaph's drivers. That's what I'll post this weekend.

[Jed]

Oh, Cr*p, I posted in the wrong thread. I guess this means I have to order a dimple dome ops:

Actually, I have been very interested in the dimple dome, So I'll order one up from MAD.

I meant to post in the ZA14 thread! I've got a pair of Zaph's drivers. That's what I'll post this weekend.

Don't make more work for yourself but I'm sure everyone would like to see your results on the dimple dome tweeter.

[JonMarsh]

Oh, Cr*p, I posted in the wrong thread. I guess this means I have to order a dimple dome ops:

Actually, I have been very interested in the dimple dome, So I'll order one up from MAD.

I meant to post in the ZA14 thread! I've got a pair of Zaph's drivers. That's what I'll post this weekend.

Zaph's going to do OK on initial sales just from all the people buying them to test! :W

I've got my order in...

[Jed]

I've got my order in...

A nice driver for an M8ta 3way with HDS tweeter and Scan woofer.

[JonMarsh]

A nice driver for an M8ta 3way with HDS tweeter and Scan woofer.

you would think, makes sense for certain, but I hear the Dark Lord has more devious plans in mind, and a complete modular system configuration simulated...

[Jed]

you would think, makes sense for certain, but I hear the Dark Lord has more devious plans in mind, and a complete modular system configuration simulated...

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Galactica.html

Only in birds eye maple with Marsh approved drivers and crossovers. :T

[dlr]

Oh, Cr*p, I posted in the wrong thread. I guess this means I have to order a dimple dome ops:

Actually, I have been very interested in the dimple dome, So I'll order one up from MAD.

It will be interesting to see if the "dimple dome" (that has a ring to it) can go as low as the original SB25. The one thing that I see is that I can't tweak the dimple dome. It looks like the diaphragms are not replaceable, the dome appears to be attached to the inner shield that covers the pole-piece vent.

The original SB25 would benefit from a chamber, but it's not an easy task to remove the current small one. I always wonder why tiny chambers end up on so many drivers when there's such an improvement with even a moderately larger one and a little stuffing. I suppose every penny of cost literally counts with the hoped-for large quantity of sales.

Dave

[JonMarsh]

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Galactica.html

Only in birds eye maple with Marsh approved drivers and crossovers. :T

That's hilarious- I haven't seen that project by Tony before! Black textured paint is certainly a lot easier finishing than veneer! His larger inductors remind me of the ones I used to build a lot for crossovers in the 90's. I don't see myself popping for any of those Duelund CAST capacitors any time soon, though- my means really are too humble, unlike Tony's. :W

interesting driver selection- PHL does have their fans, though I've never tried them- and his approach for the construction of the midrange head unit is interesting, he has a pretty good cabinet maker he works with. The system is scaled up slightly from an Isis, which is only 14.5" wide; this looks to be at least 16". The Ciare frame is 15-1/4" in diameter.

The system voicing is rather a bit different than some of his other projects- like his Kharma clone, particularly with regards to LF profile and BSC.

Well, this was a fun start to a Friday morning that's otherwise going to be hideously busy at work!

[JonMarsh]

Battlestar Galactica

That's hilarious- I haven't seen that project by Tony before! Black textured paint is certainly a lot easier finishing than veneer! His larger inductors remind me of the ones I used to build a lot for crossovers in the 90's. I don't see myself popping for any of those Duelund CAST capacitors any time soon, though- my means really are too humble, unlike Tony's. :W

interesting driver selection- PHL does have their fans, though I've never tried them- and his approach for the construction of the midrange head unit is interesting, he has a pretty good cabinet maker he works with. The system is scaled up slightly from an Isis, which is only 14.5" wide; this looks to be at least 16". The Ciare frame is 15-1/4" in diameter.

The system voicing is rather a bit different than some of his other projects- like his Kharma clone, particularly with regards to LF profile and BSC.

Well, this was a fun start to a Friday morning that's otherwise going to be hideously busy at work!

But this isn't what I think he's planning...

[Hdale85]

I've always loved the way those cabinets look

[JonMarsh]

More thoughts re

Galactica

The supplied frequency response and crossover picture raise interesting questions- more than they answer, in some regards.

I'd say overall this is a very "rock and roll" voicing speaker from Tony, considering his past designs- his Kharm clone "Statement" design didn't use full BSC and had the low bass level down several dB, which he claimed produced a subjectively flat in room response (could be the case if placed close to walls). This system has almost 5 dB elevation in the 75-100 Hz area- sort of that JBL L-100 sound, I imagine.

The other thing that sticks out a bit to me, is that using a PHL1120 on the mids, famous for it's high sensitivity, he's barely seeing 90 dB peak (if his SPL levels are accurate) and is filling in the lower part of the range by extending the range covered by the woofers up to 500 Hz. That implies a lot of insertion loss in L2- more than I'd expect for the construction.

One thing to note about the PHL1120 is that for a driver of it's size, it has generally better linear distortion behavior even in the upper end, around 1800 Hz, where many of the popular midwoofers are definitely not working so well as regards energy storage. (OTOH, it seems to have an obvious resonance around 1 kHz- go figure). I'm looking forward to Mark K's test of the ZA14, as I'm too busy and lazy to get out Praxis and set it up in the near future.

[Jed]

This system has almost 5 dB elevation in the 75-100 Hz area- sort of that JBL L-100 sound, I imagine.

My guess is he spliced nearfield data in with low end of the farfield woofer responses, but didn't incorporate any BSC to the file... something LSPcad can do rather easily. The result is a response that looks bloated in the low end, but in reality may be flatter. We can only guess without seeing an in room measurement plot.

Interesting project though.

Here's another one:

http://www.acoustic-design-magazin.de/html/marz_09.html

[JonMarsh]

It's interesting- through my work, just in our own division, I know several guys doing DIY speakers in Germany and Austria. I know no one besides myself in our company in the US doing that. I think it's a pretty big hobby over there relative to the size of the population compared with here.

[Jed]

It's interesting- through my work, just in our own division, I know several guys doing DIY speakers in Germany and Austria. I know no one besides myself in our company in the US doing that. I think it's a pretty big hobby over there relative to the size of the population compared with here.

I've noticed that trend in various ways as well.

[TacoD]

Tony's project is done for some fellow builder without the design skills. So somebody else is shelving the money. BTW cabinet head is done by a guy with it's DIY cnc setup (documented on Dutch forum board).

Filter design looks like it is based on traced manufactures measured response, as some of his other designs. The driver choice is beyond me, he had these drivers on sale for some time before this build... (probably left overs).

Tony is dealer of Duelund (see his commercial offerings, www.tg-acoustics.com), so I understand he is using it

[Jed]

I can see why Tony like's Duelund. I mean, who doesn't like chocolate and cigars?

Image not available

:W

[Face]

I can see why Tony like's Duelund. I mean, who doesn't like chocolate and cigars?

Just like chocolate and cigars, Duelund parts can be just as addictive.

[JonMarsh]

Tony's project is done for some fellow builder without the design skills. So somebody else is shelving the money. BTW cabinet head is done by a guy with it's DIY cnc setup (documented on Dutch forum board).

Filter design looks like it is based on traced manufactures measured response, as some of his other designs. The driver choice is beyond me, he had these drivers on sale for some time before this build... (probably left overs).

Tony is dealer of Duelund (see his commercial offerings, www.tg-acoustics.com), so I understand he is using it

Thanks for the insights, Taco!

[akarma]

Guys what do you think would be better as midbass in 2way if choosing among SB17NRX, Satori MW16P-4 and SS 18W4531?

[fish fingers]

A lot depends on the cabinet design imo. The SS needs a fairly large volume

[akarma]

Cabinet is not a problem. Tonal balance, low distortion and midrange clarity are most important to me. I'm planning to add a sub afterwards.

[fish fingers]

Ah ok, with a sub. Why didn't you say that in the beginning 😌 The satori and SS are both great but I'd go with the larger cone for dynamics

[akarma]

The satori and SS are both great but I'd go with the larger cone for dynamics

What do you mean by dynamics?

[5th element]

Dynamics has little to do with cone size and a whole lot more on a drivers overall sensitivity and power compression. It also depends on the driver remaining linear and keeping its distortion low, ie remaining within xmax. At low frequencies, all things being equal, the driver with the larger come would have greater max SPL potential, but if you are using a sub this is somewhat irrelevant. Just use an appropriately sized sealed box, or a high pass, to keep excursion low.

The Satori has lower midrange distortion Vs the Scan and has high sensitivity too.

Tonal balance is controlled with the crossover though, so setting that is up to you as a designer.

[akarma]

The Satori has lower midrange distortion Vs the Scan and has high sensitivity too.

Distortion and sensitivity is on the same level approximately.

[5th element]

Distortion and sensitivity is on the same level approximately.

I'm not being approximate though and there's no reason to be when we can be accurate. The Satori has lower midrange distortion than the scanspeak and is more sensitive.

I don't choose my drivers on approximations I choose them for technical prowess and exact suitability to the project. Even if a driver has a small advantage vs another, I will choose the one with that advantage.

As subs are being used here the drivers overall bass extension is largely irrelevant.

For a higher sensitivity 6.5" two way in a sub augmented system I would go for the 6ND430 from 18Sound. It is appreciably more efficient than the other two and has excellent distortion performance.

[akarma]

The Satori has lower midrange distortion than the scanspeak and is more sensitive.

Nope. Here's the measurements - http://www.audioexcite.com/. SS is just a bit more sensitive than SB. Distortion level is on the same level +-

[cochinada]

I don't wish to antagonize anyone but looking at the measures on www.audioexcite.com, from my interpretation distortion is lower in the Satori but sensitivity is a bit better for the SS (+ 0.7dB or so)

For instance, @90dB below 1KHz and for the Satori, D3 is consistently below 0.06% whereas for the SS we see peaks above 0.1%. That is a significant difference in my book.
For D2 the case is even more in favor of the Satori (< 0.4% vs. < 2%). The SS is only better in terms of D5 but I don't think that is enough to compensate the worse lower harmonics distortion, specially D3 as some say D2 is rather harmless.

That being said, there is a big difference in price in favor of the SB. At least here in Europe we are talking about 133€ vs. 218€ which could be a decisive factor.

[akarma]

For instance, @90dB below 1KHz and for the Satori,

It was about midrange distortion . But I do not want to argue anyway. I have bought SS 18W. I have not dealt with SS midwoofers before. So it will be new experience for me.

[cochinada]

I see but still some consider Midrange as between 500Hz and 2KHz and I was imagining you were thinking about an upper XO point somewhere below 2KHz. The wording is a bit vague as there are different definitions of what is midrange. It would be better to ask for instance "how to these drivers behave between x and y Hz?". That way we would avoid any confusion.

Anyway it doesn't matter now and it is true that above 1KHz things begin to get more even so I think you will be happy with your choice. As a matter of fact I too am using SS in my speakers although the much smaller 12W/8524G00 from the Discovery series and they have very low distortion, even more so because I have two in parallel.

That being said, I'm seduced with the new SB Acoustics Satori models, not only because they measure so well but also because of the lower price comparing with similar proposals. In my opinion they have currently the most serious contenders on the market on a rational thinking at least.

[akarma]

That being said, I'm seduced with the new SB Acoustics Satori models, not only because they measure so well but also because of the lower price comparing with similar proposals. In my opinion they have currently the most serious contenders on the market on a rational thinking at least.

I have a pair of MR16P-4 in 3way. It's not a midwoofer MW16P of course but is very similiar in many ways i think.

[5th element]

I was actually comparing Zaph's measurements, where basically 2nd 4th and 5th order are roughly comparable for the two except the satori has significantly lower 3rd order.

4th and 5th tend not to be produced in high quantities with any decent loudspeaker providing xmax is obeyed. 2nd order is pretty much inaudible and isn't going to be a tremendous problem unless excessive.

3rd order OTOH is my overall benchmark for the quality of a drivers motor.

This is the measure that sets the merely average drivers apart from the ones of excellence and although the SS driver is very nice the Satori is an order of magnitude better. IE 10dB lower on 3rd throughout the midrange.

And by midrange I mean as high up as anyone should realistically take these. 2.5kHz with a waveguide tweeter and 2kHz without. Then basically down as low as your bass driver needs them to go, but ~300Hz would be my target for a midrange orientated lower frequency band.

Sensitivity wise I was comparing the graphs from the manufacturers at frequencies where the cones are completely pistonic, not influenced at all by breakup or directivity narrowing. And not so low down that the drivers intrinsic bass roll off is coming into play.

Typically you want to know the sensitivity in the bass region, say around 200Hz. This is the important region as it's what's going to set your finished loudspeakers sensitivity after you've compensated for bafflestep losses.

The SS was the lower of the two.

Still they are both excellent drivers.

[akarma]

I was actually comparing Zaph's measurements, where basically 2nd 4th and 5th order are roughly comparable for the two except the satori has significantly lower 3rd order.

Where can i look at Zaph's measurements?

[cochinada]

Where can i look at Zaph's measurements?

Here but I can't find the Satori and the SS is the 18W8531G.

[akarma]

but I can't find the Satori and the SS is the 18W8531G.

yes me too

[Jonasz]

MW16P-4 http://www.audioexcite.com/?page_id=3131

18W4531-G00 http://www.audioexcite.com/?page_id=4946

18W4531-G01 http://www.audioexcite.com/?page_id=4948

[Jim Holtz]

If you want a good comparison, take a look at the NE180. The NE series are superb drivers with exceptionally low distortion.



Jim

[5th element]

Zaph only has the 8 ohm version of the SS but the two are identical save for the voice coil windings. You can expect the HD to be virtually identical.

The Satori is measured on Zaph's blog.

[akarma]

Well after dealing with SS 18W and MW16 i like the last one more definitely :W. Satori is a way better in price/quality.

[fish fingers]

IMO the extra sd of the scan makes a 'real world' difference.
A comparison with the 7.5" satori wd be interesting tho

[Zvu]

18W - discovery, classic or revelator ?

If only criteria is quality, what would be your choice ?

I'm not trying to troll but i want to know if price/performance is better than Scan Speak (which is not that hard) or the quality is better in Satori than Scan Speak (which would be a task).