ScanSpeak Illuminator project

[Mingo]

Page in Danish, so you will have to translate.

http://www.frequence.dk/sider/pca-625i.htm

Mingo

[Hdale85]

Hmm those look nice

[ThomasW]

Cool, only $16,500 USD/pr excluding cabinets.....maybe they'll give a discount for a 7.1 surround system....

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.frequence.dk%2Fsider%2Fpca-625i.htm&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=da&tl=en

[Hdale85]

Did they not post the schematic? They posted a full parts list so you could easily just build the kit your self. Shouldn't cost anywhere near that :B Unless those drivers are that expensive....

Edit: The drivers are a bit pricey

R3004 Tweeter - 360.53
18WU/8 Ohm - 300.52

So thats roughly 2k in drivers say 500 or so for crossovers. Still a lot less then 16k

[Mingo]

Please notice: 16500 Danish kroner.
Divide by approximately 5.5 to get the price in US dollars.

[tktran]

It's the crossover that makes or breaks the speaker...

I'd like a full set of measurements. Not just a single on-axis one...

[benchtester]

Did they not post the schematic?

I see the schematic at the bottom of the original link. If you are having problems seeing it, I can try to copy it into the thread.

Edit: Simple pleasures - my first time attaching an image here.

[Hdale85]

Yeah I knew I had seen it was just stating. The drivers sure have some sexy baskets though.... makes you want to do a Poly carbonate enclosure for them.

[Jed]

I'm planning a dipole speaker with the Illuminators, when they come out. Want to be able to see those beautiful magnet/motor structures.

[TacoD]

Looking good, to me it is a job well done.

[Rbrockman]

Other than the drivers, this looks quite similar to the Zaph ZRT design.

I'd like to see some similar designs that us "poor" DIY'ers can afford to build using more affordable drivers.

[Hdale85]

When I do a 2 channel setup I'll certainly be using SS drivers. Not sure they will be these models but at least the revelators.

[cotdt]

Other than the drivers, this looks quite similar to the Zaph ZRT design.

I'd like to see some similar designs that us "poor" DIY'ers can afford to build using more affordable drivers.

But then they won't be Scanspeaks anymore...

BTW... there are tons of such designs right here on this forum.

[Jed]

I'd try to flatten the 3-4db peak/plateau around 500hz-1.5k though.

[cotdt]

Are the Illuminators really an upgrade from the Revelators in performance? The response curve is not nearly as smooth, there is quite a big 10dB breakup peak at 5kHz. It won't allow for the extremely simple crossovers and the ample choice of crossover points that the Revelators allowed.

There WILL be audible 3rd order harmonic distortion centered at 1700Hz just like the Seas Excel W18EX, originating from the breakup peak (interestingly, Scanspeak is also offering the Illuminator with a magnesium cone). You would have to cross low to avoid this. The crossover in question crosses it at 2200Hz which I think is too high.

The Illuminators might beat the Revelators in harmonic distortion though, based on the impedance curve they seem to have TONS of copper. And 9mm one-way xmax!

[Hdale85]

They just look sexy

[tktran]

The Illuminator takes 1 step forward but 1 step backwards IMHO.

The magnet is certainly well ventilated, but the Revelator's frequency response was almost text book perfect.

Why did they want to ruin that?

X-max is good for the low end, but compared to 7mm, an extra 2mm doesn't yield much.

Give me an extra 2dB sensitivity instead. That's an equivalent to having an amplifier with 58% more RMS power...

[cotdt]

The magnet is certainly well ventilated, but the Revelator's frequency response was almost text book perfect.

Why did they want to ruin that?

The reason is they went from high loss suspension system to a low loss one in the Illuminator. These tend to sound better. Expect improved midrange clarity. I always thought that the Peerless Exclusives had more clarity in the midrange compared to the Scanspeaks, likely for the same reason.

[tktran]

Well they must have done something to go backwards to the the kind of 'rough' look, stiff paper cone and soft suspension to yield that frequency response.

The FR ...



reminds me of the old 18W/8535:



Some full range drivers that are reputed to have amazing 'clarity', 'detail' and other amazing characteristics, turn out to have all kinds of FR and HD anomalies when measured by a 3rd party. Gee well I wonder why people hear all those special effects...

If all other things are equal, I'll take the lowest linear and non-linear distortion drivers I can find.

[cotdt]

Hmm that almost looks like the exact same graph...

Some full range drivers that are reputed to have amazing 'clarity', 'detail' and other amazing characteristics, turn out to have all kinds of FR and HD anomalies when measured by a 3rd party. Gee well I wonder why people hear all those special effects...

well the drivers are in their crossovers so the breakup would no longer be there, but still... the general trend is that drivers with lower mass, lower inductance, stronger BL motor, more rigid cone material produce a cleaner upper midrange regardless of distortion.

in fact, except for the lower frequencies, i haven't found much correlation between harmonic distortion and subjective sound. the peerless exclusives, seas excels, and scanspeak revelators all have low distortion but yet they all sound very different from one another and have different levels of clarity regardless of how you adjust your crossover.

well my point is, we really have to listen to these new Illuminators to decide on whether they are worth it. i do agree that the peaky frequency response is a step backwards though.

[JonW]

So my big question here is:
Who is going to measure the distortion of the Illuminators when they come out?
Maybe Zaph or Jed or…?

I’m especially interested in the small-flanged tweeters:

http://www.tymphany.com/d2004_602000

http://www.tymphany.com/d3004_602000

http://www.tymphany.com/d3004_602010

I would really like to design a rather small MT speaker, for which I need a small-flanged tweeter. I’m not happy enough with the performance of any of the currently available options. If the small Illuminator tweeters have low distortion similar to, say, the Scanspeak 6600, I’ll use them for this project. They could be paired with a Revelator woofer or, heck, maybe even an Illuminator woofer if they measure very well.

If all other things are equal, I'll take the lowest linear and non-linear distortion drivers I can find.

Agreed.

[Jed]

I'd like to measure them. I don't see the rising response in the treble as an issue at all. That's an easy fix in the crossover network. That extra energy was put there on purpose by Scanspeak.

The problem is money. I'm trying to balance how much I output with how much I input if you know what I mean- .

Though, I'd really like to do a speaker with these Illuminator drivers. I saw one, actually Darren K's only sample in the BPT room at RMAF, and it's built like a masterpiece.

[tktran]

Well it looks like they're back with a cone sourced from Kurt Müller:

Image not available

I like the new motor system, I just wished they had kept the original soft parts...

Here's the 8531G FR:



Here again is the 8741T FR:

[Dennis H]

A bit OT but, if you're looking at spendy drivers, the Seas Excel T29 tweeters are on sale at Madisound for about half price.

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/specials.php

[cotdt]

A bit OT but, if you're looking at spendy drivers, the Seas Excel T29 tweeters are on sale at Madisound for about half price.

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/specials.php

those are really good tweeters...

[jkrutke]

So my big question here is:
Who is going to measure the distortion of the Illuminators when they come out?
Maybe Zaph or Jed or…?

I'm not going to buy a pair myself. I still feel the burn from the ribbons I bought for testing using my own money. :E

As far as getting a loaner pair in, it's probably not likely for Jed or myself. The more expensive a driver is, the less likely anyone will hand them over only to have their precious jewels devalued.

For the most expensive driver I've ever tested, ($2300) I had to agree to not publish the results. I normally would have said forget it, but my own sick curiosity drove me to test it anyway. Now I can't talk about it. :roll:

Well it looks like they're back with a cone sourced from Kurt Müller:

Hmmm, Scan Speak made their Revelator cones in-house to discourage copies being sold. I wonder why they went to an external manufacturer for the Illuminator line. Maybe the good cone designers left the company. Then again, looking at the SB Acoustics stuff, maybe not. The Revelator drivers, at least the 12cm, 15cm and and 18cm are pretty much the best paper/pulp cones in the world.

[jkrutke]

A bit OT but, if you're looking at spendy drivers, the Seas Excel T29 tweeters are on sale at Madisound for about half price.

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/specials.php

You know, I would indeed call those a good deal. Even if they didn't perform as well as the 27 series Prestige tweeters, solid build quality is worth something. There's something satisfying about a flange that doesn't warp no matter how hard you torque the screws.

[tktran]

I think they're great tweeters, but feel that they should have cost this price at the introduction.

You know, price equivalent to the T25CF001. A great tweeter at a reasonable price IMHO.

Dave's (DLR) mod for the T25CF001 apparently works for the T29CF001, and should make it even better. (See Troels Gravesen's experiments in the SEAS "Cost No Object" 2 way design)

[Jed]

For the most expensive driver I've ever tested, ($2300) I had to agree to not publish the results. I normally would have said forget it, but my own sick curiosity drove me to test it anyway. Now I can't talk about it. :roll:

.

Oh come on, we all know the Aura NT1 performed better. :B :T

[JonW]

I'm not going to buy a pair myself. I still feel the burn from the ribbons I bought for testing using my own money. :E

As far as getting a loaner pair in...

How's about if I bought a pair and sent them to you for testing?

Yes, I'm getting that desperate for a high quality, small-flanged tweeter. If they measure well, I can use them. If not, maybe I could sell them and only be out $50-100?

Now that I've worked with the SS 6600, I've become a little spoiled. At Iowa I listened carefully to all the small-flanged tweeters there (Aura NT1, Dayton ND20, Vifa DQ25 (?), Vifa D26). None of them did it for me, although I thought the D26 sounded the best. I work rather slowly and a speaker project takes me months. So I want to start out with really good drivers and know that the end product is as good as possible for me to make.

[Jed]

JonW,

You could always convert your 2-way into a 3-way with a nice SS 10" driver. Otherwise the Illuminator is likely a lateral move to what you already have. Been there done that.

[Hdale85]

I have this feeling that the SS6600 is probably nearly as good as the Illuminator tweeter. Also I have a feeling that the Revelators are probably going to be easier to use and something like 90-95% as good as the Illuminator mids/woofers. When I do a 2 channel system I'd love the SS6600 AirCir and then some Revelator mids (5.5"?) and I'm not sure about woofers...could go cheaper could go more expensive but I think this would be an amazing 2 channel setup

[cotdt]

Isn't the Illuminator tweeter basically the same thing as the Revelator 7000? That motor system isn't going to change anything but lower the sensitivity.

[JonW]

JonW,

You could always convert your 2-way into a 3-way with a nice SS 10" driver. Otherwise the Illuminator is likely a lateral move to what you already have. Been there done that.

Hi Jed,

I am, indeed, thinking up a 3-way for which I may use the 6600 tweeter, an SS 5.5” or 7” mid, and a pair of woofers, be they 2 x 10” SS or 12” from another company.

But I’m also thinking about a quite small MT for office use. Maybe ~6.5” W x ~10” H x ~7.5” deep. And to keep it that small it really needs a small-flanged tweeter.

So yeah, different tweeters for different projects.

[b_force]

Isn't the Illuminator tweeter basically the same thing as the Revelator 7000? That motor system isn't going to change anything but lower the sensitivity.

The new serie, like this one:

http://www.tymphany.com/d3004_662000

Is a one to one copy of this one.

http://www.tymphany.com/d3004_660000

the difference is that there is a 6600 with a ring radiator.

[Hdale85]

Well there are some small differences. For one it looks like there is a felt area on the 662000. Also the material the dome is made of looks to be a bit different.

[b_force]

If you look at the datasheets there are exactly the same.
(And I mean REALLY EXACT !)

[Hdale85]

Hmm very interesting.... Isn't the SS6600 quite a bit cheaper?

[cotdt]

Hmm very interesting.... Isn't the SS6600 quite a bit cheaper?

Yes, and the Peerless HDS Tweeter is even cheaper, though it' a different tweeter 8)

[b_force]

cotdt??? ehm explain :P

Yes the 6600 is cheaper.
I'm thinking that the newer ones are just the same tweeter, but with another (highend) look.....

[Hdale85]

I just wish there was a way to show off that sexy motor.

[cotdt]

cotdt??? ehm explain :P

Yes the 6600 is cheaper.
I'm thinking that the newer ones are just the same tweeter, but with another (highend) look.....

For only $78, the Peerless HDS 810921 Tweeter offers similar performance as the Scanspeak. Distortion is really low and it can cross over really, really low with either a waveguide or active.

Because of its lower mass, the HDS tweeter has lower IM distortion than any other tweeter including the Scanspeaks, which I think is why the Peerless seems to have more "air" and perceived detail than the 6600. It kind of has that Hiquphon/ribbon tweeter sound, except it tests very low on distortion, so you can't blame its airiness on distortion. What it does have in common is very light weight though.

[benchtester]

15W or 18W Revelators/Illuminator

JonW,

You could always convert your 2-way into a 3-way with a nice SS 10" driver. Otherwise the Illuminator is likely a lateral move to what you already have. Been there done that.

Thanks, I think this answers one of my questions.

I have a 2-way with a 15W Revelator and SS 6600 tweeter with a LR2 crossover at 2400 Hz.. I am thinking of expanding it into a 3-way.

If one were trying to optimize such a system would a 18W Revelator offer any benefits or problems compared to the 15W Revelator? It sounds like you don't think the Illuminator would be much different.

[jkrutke]

In some discussions about other stuff, I heard that Madisound just got in the 18's and the small tweeters. They should be for sale soon.

There WILL be audible 3rd order harmonic distortion centered at 1700Hz just like the Seas Excel W18EX, originating from the breakup peak (interestingly, Scanspeak is also offering the Illuminator with a magnesium cone). You would have to cross low to avoid this. The crossover in question crosses it at 2200Hz which I think is too high.

That remains to be seen... breakup nodes don't always directly correlate to peaks in the HD, particularly when the motor has a full faraday sleeve through the gap. Take the SB Acoustics SB17NRX35 for example - Full sleeve, large breakup, no sign of peaking in the HD sweeps. Ditto for the underhung Audio Technology 18H520613SD I tested. The Illuminator could be similar.

[JonW]

In some discussions about other stuff, I heard that Madisound just got in the 18's and the small tweeters. They should be for sale soon.

I was just looking for something else at Madisound and noticed that a few of the Illuminators are now listed for sale:

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/index.php?manufacturers_id=148

So Zaph, might you be somewhat interested in testing a pair of the small tweeters if I sent them your way?

-Jon