Replacement woofers for Watt/Puppy clones?

[antivawt]

I built a pair of Thorsten Loesch's David/Jerico Watt/Puppy clones about 8 years ago. http://www.deadwaxcafe.com/vzone/david/david.htm

When moving from Nebraska to Colorado, the movers smashed the puppy cabinets/drivers. Bummer.

Here it is 4 years later, I've got the itch to build another pair of puppys. The Peerless 217wr33 8in is long gone that was used in the puppys.

I've always been happy with the midrange/tweeter of the watts. Driving them
with a Mccormack Micro Line Drive, Spectral DMA90, and Theta digital.

The puppy enclosure would be about 54 liters.

I have a pair of Eton 8-800's from a center channel project (Jon Marsh designed for me about 5 years ago) I could use along with purchasing another pair of the Eton's?

I'm certainly not up on the current crop of drivers, any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Kevin

[dmalphur]

Given the relatively small (for two 8" woofers) box volume, the closest I could find was this Aurum Cantus model: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=296-420

It should be a direct swap for the cabinet volume (going by the manufacturers datasheet), though the crossover may need tweaking. This woofer is very efficient (90db 1w/1m) yet still has a huge +-8mm of xmax.

The eton doesn't perform well as a subwoofer due to the small xmax (3mm) and the highish Fs (36Hz).

-David

[ThomasW]

Hi Kevin,

Given the minimal investment in crossover parts, and the problems associated with finding a drop-in replacement, I think it's best to start from scratch with this design. If this is done it's going to be much easier to find a good match for the tweeter.

For the bass bins look at the RSS210 drivers

[dmalphur]

I don't think that he said the top cabinet was damaged, just the separate bass bins. If the midwoofers were damaged as well, then Thomas is right, it would be far easier to start from scratch.

-David

[antivawt]

Hey Thomas,

I did search around at most of the current 8's. Could seem to find one with similar specs.

In the whole scheme of this hobby, discarding the woofer x-over is a couple pennies.

Maybe look at a single 10?

David,

didn't see the Aurum, looks like a possibility? Anyone have any experience with this driver?

I realize the Eton's don't go as low as current drivers, I'm not looking to scrape the bottom. These will be used for two channel only. I'm a soft rock acoustic guy. The center channel WMTW sounded damn good with 8-800's, MB Quartz mid, Focal TC120.

The Watt cabinet/drivers are intact. I will reuse the SEAS CB17RCY mids and the Focal TC120 tweeters. I will also rebuild the watt cabinets, they were sprayed with an automotive paint, would be difficult to match the finish.

Could probably take the woofer boxes up to 60-62 liters.

Thanks, Kevin

[ThomasW]

Sorry I misunderstood....

Question, do you want the bass bin to have a passive crossover or can you use the Marchand?

[antivawt]

Thomas,

I'm impressed with your memory, remembering I have A Marchand X-over.

I guess I could use the Marchand to x-over the woofers. Try to pick up another Spectral DMA90 or maybe a DMA180 , just a few more pennies right?

Now what's our (female) golden retrievers name? Hint, Streetcar Named Desire.

Kevin

[ThomasW]

We discussed the Marchand in our conversation.

Next question, will there eventually be a sub in the picture? If so I think the AC woofers are a interesting choice. If no sub you might want to consider drivers for the bass bin that have more output potential.

[antivawt]

Thomas,

no sub in the picture.

[ThomasW]

Then I'd use 2-10" drivers/side.

These are amazing drivers being sold at a great price

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=121&products_id=79

[antivawt]

Thomas,

those do look good, nice price too.

Suggested enclosure?

Are you sitting on a variety of Marchand x-over modules?

Kevin

[ThomasW]

I'll need to run a box sim for you.

Yes I have a good selection of modules and the parts to make others are very inexpensive.

We can use a Behringer variable frequency XO to find the best sounding XO point, then measure at the outputs of the Behringer to determine the exact frequency for a Marchand module

[dmalphur]

The NS 10 looks very good. Two in series per side would work in a 78 L enclosure (according to madisound's page), but you would definitely want to amplify them separately. If you were happy with the 8" woofers you had previously and don't want to go a 78L cabinet volume, then the 8" Aurum Cantus woofers I linked to before will have more output than your original peerless woofers. I found the Aurum Cantus woofers for $72.50 each at www.e-speakers.com: http://estore.websitepros.com/1736754/Detail.bok?no=200

-David

[antivawt]

Thanks again David,

I'll take a look at those as well.
Yes, I was happy with the bass output from the Peerless 8's. 78 L is a bit too large.

Kevin

[ThomasW]

78 L is a bit too large.

It's time for a real man to step up to the plate.....not such thing as too large a bass bin....

What's the largest size you want to deal with?

[antivawt]

Thomas,

I guess I'm not not ready to run with the big bass dogs. These will be in our (her) living room, enough said.

54 liters internal.

Kevin

[Jed]

Thomas,

I guess I'm not not ready to run with the big bass dogs. These will be in our (her) living room, enough said.

54 liters internal.

Kevin

Kevin,

My suggestion is a pair of Hivi 8.8


Here is the box tuning, F3 of 35hz in 56L or so isn't too shabby.

[ThomasW]

A pair of either of these will play pretty loud in a smallish box..

http://partsexpress.com/pdf/RSS210HF-4_specsheet.pdf

http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/264-854s.pdf

[antivawt]

Thanks Jed,

I'll take a look at the Hivi as well. Have you used it in any of your projects? If so, how does it sound?

Following the link David posted for e-speakers. I came across a Visaton TIW200X3, any experience with it?

http://estore.websitepros.com/Detail.bok?no=527

Kevin

[Jed]

Jon Marsh likes its little brother the 6.8, and uses it in his NeoD. They have large voice coils and a great low end. I haven't worked with them yet, myself though. I imagine the 8.8 is even better in the low end given the extra displacement.

[dmalphur]

Have you resolved on getting a second amplifier to drive these bass bins? With most of these woofers the sensitivity is in the 84-86 dB 1W/1m range and you would certainly need to use a separate amplifier to drive them. Not that this is a bad thing, I strongly prefer to drive my bass units separately (through a DCX2496). You certainly have more options if you go the multiple amp route (to wit, any of the suggested woofers would work).

-David

[antivawt]

David,

I have a Spectral DMA90 amp now, I'll try to pick up another one. Or maybe a DMA180.

I'm several years removed from working at a audio shop for 6 yrs. By a mile the Spectral stuff was my favorite. I haven't listen to the current amps, I can't imagine there has been huge leaps in sound quality, there wasn't in the 6yrs I worked at the shop.

Kevin

[ThomasW]

Using the Marchand and it's 4th order slopes means you don't need that same kind of $pendy flat wide-band woofer required for Thorsten's shallow sloped passive crossover.

Also this approach allows you to use the bass bins to reproduce lower frequencies than before. So you might consider some of the more brute-force subwoofer type 8"s that still have a smooth plot up to ~1kHz.

Both the Tang Band and the PE RSS210HF meet the above requirements. The 210 with it's stiff alu cone, very low Le, lowish Fs and 9mm of Xmax seems particularly attractive. With wholesale 4+ pricing, 2 of these are the cost of a single European 8"

For comparion purposes I have some of the 10" RSS215 if you want drop by and see the construction quality.

[Hdale85]

The Dayton drivers certainly are constructed well. I have 8 RS180's sitting here and they are the first Dayton drivers I've gotten and very impressed with build quality.

[antivawt]

Thomas,

I'm leaning towards the Dayton RS210, seems to be the best value that fill my needs. E-speakers website indicates all in stock Hivi is 40%off, waiting on a reply from them.

Just called Paxton's wood store. They stock 1"mdf $50 a sheet. I also price out using 3/4 mdf layered with baltic birch. With the mdf/baltic I thought I would go 2 1/4 on the baffle 1 1/2 everywhere else. With 1 mdf, 2 baffle, 1 everywhere else. I'm ready to make some dust.

Kevin