Flank a Nat P w/ 12" or 15"

[kgveteran]

I did a quick drawing to see if it was possible to flank a Nat P with some 12's or 15's to get a real full range driver for my system.

I know there is an onwall XO out there.What do you think.More than meets the eye ? This would be behind my AT SMX screen, all side by side.

KG

[kgveteran]

No takers.......hmmmmmm

[---k---]

You're a bit quick on the draw! Just saw it!

Interesting idea. You would need to add an active crossover. Probably would work okay, but there are likely some minor variation issues. If you're going behind a screen, why not just build something big and tall like the Khanspires? It's been done already, FredT has 3 behind a screen. It doesn't have 12's or 15's, but why on earth would you need them with your subs in your small room? If you really think you need bigger, go with CJD's bigger 3-ways - with a pair of RS180's and then a pair of 10" RS270's. I bet he would see if he could mod the crossover for you. If that isn't enough overkill for you, well then you've been hanging out too much with those crazies at AVS and will never be happy.

[Hdale85]

I think he's looking to have the sound come from where its sposed to even the low end bass? At least that's what it seems.

[kgveteran]

It's more like the 15's crossing over to the eights I'd like to upgrade. I'm already XO at 100hz, I just feel it's the midbass thats lacking a bit. The two RS225's about equal a 10'' driver. Two twelves would really carry over a bit better, even in smallish rooms like mine.

Would the active XO be used to have ample amp for the twelves, or is it a XO issue.

Kg


I was looking at the old 1259mad over at madisound, unless there is a better alternative. $300.00 a pair wasn't what I was looking at spending.

Plus I would have to sell off my three centers.

[---k---]

Because the NatP is just a two way design, you need a crossover around 250 - 350 hz to your new woofers (then let the subs cross at 50hz). Because there isn't a crossover designed for it, the easiest method would be to pickup a Behringer crossover unit and actively power your new woofers.

A fully passive crossover could be designed to incoporate the 2 RS180s and 2 12" whatevers. But, it would require an all new crossover, which isn't going to happen.

I will continue to think that you're crazy if you really believe that 3 Khanspires across the front wouldn't be enough. Though, when I hear people start talking about "midbass" being lacking and wanting that chest pounding feeling, I imagine that they are wanting that club bass feel. For those people, an active crossover and blending in a pair of bass bins might be the perfect solution. Then they can turn up the bass as much as they want for that chest thumping, because I don't think they are a "flat is best" type of person.

Do a search for "Bass Bins". There have been a couple of people that have added a pair of 12"s to the NatP in a bass bin below them. Also, read KingPin's thread where he used active crossover and adding subwoofers to CJD's 3-ways. Same theory.

Just for the record, I really really enjoy listening to Blue Man Group "Audio" DVD at like -10. It is an amazing DVD. I was disappointed when I saw them live in Chicago. It is so much better at home, and most of the bass is over 50 hz.

[kgveteran]

Since my WTMW have dual 225's it would be a wash in the bass dept. The mid would get a little umph with two 180's......but the mid in the WTMW really doesn't seem too stressed. Just thinking......

[bluewizard]

Well, once again, out of my element, but the first thing I thought of when I saw the drawing is, what is the drawback of having a vertical array of midbass, between a horizontal array of low-bass?

I know in center speakers, this usually cause a notch in the response at the mid/high crossover.

It would seem if you made a NatP in the stand mount configuration, then set that on top of another cabinet that had one or two deep bass speakers, you might be on to something.

Or rather than make a horizontal W(NatP)W configuration, why not make a vertical WMTMW or a WWMTM configuration? Or as suggested above a [WW]+[MTM] configuration?

Unless you envisioned this as a Center speaker, then I think that would be one awesome kick-butt Center.

And are two 12" or 15" speakers per side really necessary? I would think one of either on a side would get the job done. And while you are at it, why not add a couple of Subwoofer plate amps to the mix, and have stereo subwoofers, or low-bass speakers, depending on how you define it.

If there are no significant conflict between the horizontal low-bass and the vertical midbass, then maybe I'm worrying about nothing.

Mostly just curious.

Steve/bluewizard

[kgveteran]

This is where I'm at now...and this is where I got the idea of a modified W-Nat P-W . I like using centers.

[bluewizard]

My next thought is about the dimensions of such a beast. I'm guessing it is difficult to make a NatP shorter than about 20". So 20" high, and 9" + 2x12" + wood is about 36" wide. That's not extremely big, but it's no pixie speaker either. My single 12" 3-ways weigh 50 pounds, I have to believe these are likely to come in closer to 75 pounds. Again, not that unusual, but, again, not pixie speakers either.

Don't get me wrong, more than anything I'm asking questions. It seems like a good idea, if all the potential problems can be assessed and analyzed in advance.

Could you maybe dial it back to a couple of extra 10" woofers? Still even 10" woofers doesn't shrink the size by much.

Steve/bluewizard

[---k---]

Since my WTMW have dual 225's it would be a wash in the bass dept. The mid would get a little umph with two 180's......but the mid in the WTMW really doesn't seem too stressed. Just thinking......

Yeah. I had similar thoughts. I modeled you woofers versus mine to see if the box size was holding you back, and it didn't appear to be a big difference. I'm not sure why you think that the midbass is missing, unless you are looking for a non-flat sound.

I know you have played a lot with your system, RTA, and EQ. I wonder about that 100 hz crossover and what is going on around there.

I think if you want to move forward with this, I would build the bass bins in a more traditional manor, so that they are below, above, or both so that you minimize issues with diffraction off the woofers.

[Dennis H]

Yeah, I vote for the stock Nat P with separate bass bins. Jon had to make some compromises in the inwall crossover and I'd rather stick with the standard one.

[Hdale85]

I was going to suggest this. Or even something like the Neo CC's with bass bins if you want to go for the next step up Either way build a nice wall of bass bins that will fit right below it and use a Bheringer to cross it actively play around until you find the sound you like.

[kgveteran]

Maybe I need to get out of the house and take a listen to what everyone else is using, to see if I've got a little bit of upgrade-itis.

I have to say I really haven't heard many systems on par with mine to see where I stack up.Maybe I'd change my mind.

I don't know how common this is , but I will listen to the same DVD or CD and make changes on how I think it's suppose to sound.I need to take those discs over to some friends houses to see how it sounds on their systems.

Any takers.......

[Dennis H]

Ah the dreaded upgraditis. In theory I agree with Doug. I haven't heard the Neo CC but they should be better than about any MTM and better than your current 3-ways, just based on the driver selection and the care Jon took with the crossover -- it's a pretty special design. Behind your AT screen, you could leave them in the optimum horizontal position, sitting on top of bass bins, and I think you'd be looking at an upgrade over what you have now as well as what anyone you know has. For the bass, I'd think a single Lambda TD15 for each channel would be pretty sweet.

[kgveteran]

Ah the dreaded upgraditis. In theory I agree with Doug. I haven't heard the Neo CC but they should be better than about any MTM and better than your current 3-ways, just based on the driver selection and the care Jon took with the crossover -- it's a pretty special design. Behind your AT screen, you could leave them in the optimum horizontal position, sitting on top of bass bins, and I think you'd be looking at an upgrade over what you have now as well as what anyone you know has. For the bass, I'd think a single Lambda TD15 for each channel would be pretty sweet.

Did a quick search and didn't turn up a Neo CC.Then I went to find who sold the Lambda TD15 and that went belly up.I can't find anything tonight.I'm going to bed! I'll continue the search tomorrow.Thanx for the info.

KG

[Hdale85]

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27218 Here you go. As for the Lambda I'm not real sure where to find that I don't know that you'd have to go with something like that though any large woofer that you could cross a bit higher would work great. Down that low it may not make a whole lot of difference as long as its a low distortion driver.

[PewterTA]

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27218&highlight=neodcc

[Dennis H]

The Lambda drivers are Nick McKinney's pro-style drivers from back in the day. John Janowitz of Acoustic Elegance is building and selling them now with Nick's support. Lots of threads about them at AVS, like all the recent high-efficiency 3-way threads. Some of the threads here are using them as well like dlneubec's latest.

http://www.aespeakers.com/

[Jed]

Maybe I need to get out of the house and take a listen to what everyone else is using, to see if I've got a little bit of upgrade-itis.

I have to say I really haven't heard many systems on par with mine to see where I stack up.Maybe I'd change my mind.

I don't know how common this is , but I will listen to the same DVD or CD and make changes on how I think it's suppose to sound.I need to take those discs over to some friends houses to see how it sounds on their systems.

Any takers.......

You can listen to my new MTMWWWW towers and WWMTMWW CC if you want. I'm in E. Rochester. Aren't you nearby? Or just stop over for a listen sometime. Right now I'm set up for 2 channel though.

Jed

[kgveteran]

Like all flagship designs this would be SPL limited by the tweeter.Would you guys agree ? When I say SPL limited , I'm concerned with it being used in a bigger room. I'm not looking to go deaf, just provide some usable SPL with good SQ and make it to the listening position, with a little gas in the tank. I like the idea of 15's and total redesigned passive XO. Thoughts on this too, if you care.

I think I may have found a XO designer.........