Closest Sealed MTM to Salk Songtowers?

[treytexag]

I recently heard Mr. Jim Salk's Songtower speakers. The imaging and soundstage were outstanding - loved them!!

What would be my best choice for a sealed MTM design using the PE 1.0 cubic foot prebuilts that would sound like / close to the ST's? These will be shelf mounted close to wall at rear and side and used for 50% music (like the Police SACD for example), and 50% HT. I'm already running a 15" ported sub driven with a 500 watt BASH amp for LFE duty. Audesy running on Marantz 7002, with the 7002 managing LFE to the sub at 80 Hz. Just bought an Emotiva B-stock 5 channel amp to handle loads less than 6 ohms - amp should arrive Thursday. Oh, I'll need a matching center too - but I guess I'm focused on the front left and right at the moment.

If budget wasn't a concern (of course in reality, budget is always a concern), what would be the recommended design? I want to stick with something "proven", don't want to spend $1,000+ dollars on something that no one has built or tweaked out. At this point, I've looked hard at the Modula MTM, and considered Zaph's Vifa XG18 / Seas 27TDFC MTM design. What do y'all think? Are there any proven MTM sealed designes using Seas Excel's? What other top of the line MTM sealed designs are out there?

Imaging and soundstage, mid-bass clarity and crystal clear highs are important. Please advise your thoughts gentlemen.

Thanks a lot.

Trey

[Jed]

I've worked with the CA15RLY and OW1s before (which are used in the Songtowers). The Excel's are a totally different cup of tea. I'd recommend you take a look at rjbaudio.com for designs with similar drivers to what you heard.

Jed

[Jed]

How much do you want to spend on drivers and crossovers?

[---k---]

Well if you want the PE Cab, then of the designs here you're limiting yourself to the Nat P and Modula MTM. And of those, I would say the NatP is better suited to your budget and equipment. That said, I wouldn't say the NatP sounds like the SongTower. Not that you won't love them - they are very good. But very different. The Song Tower uses a very expensive tweeter and more expensive woofer. The Salks look like a good value.

If you want something similar, but less expensive humm

Zalytron has kits with the (I think the same) Seas Woofer and (different) Hiquphon tweter and crossover by DennisMurphy. So, not sure you can come closer in voicing. Pretty reasonable at $375. But, you need to build the box (or have a local cabniet maker build for ~$200/ea)

http://www.zalytron.com/HiqKits.htm

If you're building boxes, consider Jed's D44. Different sound, but excellent!

[Jed]

Thanks Ryan. Though, the D44s won't really work well in a sealed cabinet. Of my designs, I'd recommend the MaxxL16 for a sealed cab.

By the way, aren't the Songtowers a transmission line, so why the need for a sealed cabinet?

Jed

[cjd]

You know, I have this pair of OW1's I have yet to find a use for. Hmmmmm...

[Jed]

You know, I have this pair of OW1's I have yet to find a use for. Hmmmmm...

Songtower clone... yeah baby!

[treytexag]

Can we do a Songtower clone in a sealed MTM design? I'm in.

Trey

[Jed]

Can't you buy a kit from Salk? Shouldn't be too bad if you build your own boxes.

[Bastek]

The Zalytron Zeus should be a better option to Songtowers, since it uses the Seas 6.5" magnesium excel mids. It's also a TL design and the complete kit+cabs cost the same as the ST. Cabinets from Zalytron are better than the ST's.
I think the crossover will work in a stand mount MTM enclosure.

[treytexag]

I could build boxes, but would prefer to focus my attention on drivers and crossovers

Ryan, the Murphy designed CAOW1 doesn't use a Seas Excel, its another line of Seas - don't know about them. On Zalytron's site there is a Zues tower using (I think) a pair of Seas Excels and a OWII tweater - it, like the Songtower is a transmission line tower design.

I don't have room for the TL's, although those are what I heard with the Songtowers. I have to go with something that I can put up on a shelf, and hopefully a design that I can find a timber matched center design as well (don't know if timber is the right term).

Anyway gents, sure appreciate y'alls thoughts on this. I like the notion of a ST clone - hopefully (for me) that doesn't mean a TL tower by definition, since I'd like to do a shelf design, MTM perhaps.

Thanks again.

Treytexag

[treytexag]

Bastek, you're right if the Zalytron sites price is per speaker - that would put a pair at 1,600, plus boxes. Jim Salk's speakers are beautiful, so if we're at perhaps $2K for the Zalytron Zues's, I'd go with the ST's - they really sound good.

Jim's prices are very good for what you get I'm learning. I was hopeing to try to get close to the sound of the ST's with a non-tower design, and perhaps save a little in the meantime.

Here's a question, can I take a proven design, for example, say a Murphy 2 driver 2 way, and easily extrapolate it to a MTM design, or is that a daunting task at best?

Thanks guys, sure appreciat the input here.

Treytexag

[Jed]

Well, you are going to need something with less baffle step if mounting it on a shelf. The ST are meant to be free standing in a room, so that won't work anyway.

The ST uses the Seas CA15rly. You can find it at madisound for under $70 each.

And as I mentioned above, rjbaudio.com has designs using this woofer. The cabinets that roman uses are pretty standard, so I bet you could find a PE box that would work.

Jed

[Jed]

Here's a question, can I take a proven design, for example, say a Murphy 2 driver 2 way, and easily extrapolate it to a MTM design, or is that a daunting task at best?



Treytexag

Does it have to be an MTM? And to answer your question. No. You can't do that without taking new measurements and creating a new crossover design. Well, at least if you want to know it will sound good and take into consideration the diffraction differences introduced by the new baffle.

Jed

[Bastek]

Bastek, you're right if the Zalytron sites price is per speaker - that would put a pair at 1,600, plus boxes. Jim Salk's speakers are beautiful, so if we're at perhaps $2K for the Zalytron Zues's, I'd go with the ST's - they really sound good.

Jim's prices are very good for what you get I'm learning. I was hopeing to try to get close to the sound of the ST's with a non-tower design, and perhaps save a little in the meantime.

Here's a question, can I take a proven design, for example, say a Murphy 2 driver 2 way, and easily extrapolate it to a MTM design, or is that a daunting task at best?

Thanks guys, sure appreciat the input here.

Treytexag

The Zalytron parts price is for two speakers ($800) and $500 for each cab.
So total for the pair is $1800. The STs are $1700.
Zalytron is only 20 miles away from me, so i might have to pay a visit. Sounds too good to be true, these are 2005 prices.

[Jed]

The Zalytron Zeus should be a better option to Songtowers, since it uses the Seas 6.5" magnesium excel mids. It's also a TL design and the complete kit+cabs cost the same as the ST. Cabinets from Zalytron are better than the ST's.
I think the crossover will work in a stand mount MTM enclosure.

Who designed the crossover? What is the slope and Fc?

And the magnesium cones sound NOTHING like a CA15. If that warm relaxing sound is what he's after it won't fit his tastes.

[ThomasW]

Who designed the crossover? What is the slope and Fc?

[Bastek]

Who designed the crossover? What is the slope and Fc?

And the magnesium cones sound NOTHING like a CA15. If that warm relaxing sound is what he's after it won't fit his tastes.

The crossover can be modified to our tastes, are we diy or not?
I find my W15CY001+OWI monitors very warm and relaxing.

[treytexag]

Does it have to be an MTM?

No, doesn't have to be MTM. I kinda' glommed on the MTM design after hearing the ST's. The diminutive Def Tech's I have now for Front L and Front R are MT 2 ways.

Well, you are going to need something with less baffle step if mounting it on a shelf. The ST are meant to be free standing in a room, so that won't work anyway.

The ST uses the Seas CA15rly. You can find it at madisound for under $70 each.

And as I mentioned above, rjbaudio.com has designs using this woofer. The cabinets that roman uses are pretty standard, so I bet you could find a PE box that would work.

Jed

Jed, thanks for the info. I was mistaken on the Seas, I thought Jim was using the Excel line on his ST's. So the Murphy CAOW1 does then in fact use the same CA15rly (I think). Jed, I will check the designs over at rjbaudio, thanks again for the tips!

The Zalytron parts price is for two speakers ($800) and $500 for each cab.
So total for the pair is $1800. The STs are $1700.
Zalytron is only 20 miles away from me, so i might have to pay a visit. Sounds too good to be true, these are 2005 prices.

Bastek, sounds like 800 for the pair is a deal then. I wish I could do a TL tower design, I just can't accomodate them in my Den right now. Also need to keep the 2 year olds fingers off 'em :W .

You guys are great, man I appreciate the input here. There are so many designs out there, I end up with 15 open windows pursuing all the leads on great designs. I really want to stick with something proven as opposed to "experimental".

Thanks again.

Trey

[treytexag]

Who designed the crossover? What is the slope and Fc?

And the magnesium cones sound NOTHING like a CA15. If that warm relaxing sound is what he's after it won't fit his tastes.

Very good point, it's not just about the drivers is it? IIRC, the crossovers on the ST's were done by an accomplished designer - his name eludes me at this late hour.

Thanks,
Trey

[Bastek]

Dennis Murphy also designs crossovers for Zalytron. I'm not sure Zeus is his design.

[Jim Holtz]

Dennis Murphy also designs crossovers for Zalytron. I'm not sure Zeus is his design.

I'd suggest that you look closely at the designs posted on Zalytrons website before settling on one. Dennis doesn't design for Zalytron, AFAIK. They used to have the Hiqtopia design Dennis did for me many years ago posted on their website which was a link to Dennis website. In other words, Zalytrons designs are not sanctioned by Dennis. They did have permission for the links. I've not been very impressed with 90% of the designs Zalytron has listed and wouldn't recommend them.

Jim Salk and Dennis are both friends of mine. Jim's speakers are exceptionally nice and have the highest workmanship. Dennis of course, labors over the designs until the voicing is just right. That's why a simple 2-way MTM like the Song Towers sounds so good. However, Dennis has designs listed on his website that he also tweaked that will sound very similar and are free if you want to build your own cabinet.

The Song Towers will have very good resale value due to the cabinetry and the Salk Sound name.

Jim

[Bastek]

So it looks that only Joe D'Appolito and some "other" guy design for Zalytron. The Aria 6RW seems like a safe bet, since its Joe's design, or was it for Orca?
Elliot's site is so primitive, but he is a nice guy, and his work is excellent (can you say overbuilt?). I'm thinking about trying his Phenomenal 1 kit this Summer.

[Rick Craig]

The 1 cubic ft. cabinet is too big for a sealed MTM with a 5" woofers (unless you want a very low "Q" alignment). I would consider using the .75 MTM cabinet which is still a little too big but you could add some filler blocks if needed.

The midbass driver in the SongTower is pretty average and you can do better than that. Depending on your budget the Seas W15 or W16 are good alternatives. I'm doing a MTM right now with the W16 and a Fountek ribbon tweeter and the W16 is -3db @70hz which is perfect for matching with a subwoofer.

[---k---]

I'd suggest that you look closely at the designs posted on Zalytrons website before settling on one. Dennis doesn't design for Zalytron, AFAIK.
Jim

Jim, thanks for the info. I don't have any first hand experance with Zalytron's kits, and their site makes it look very much like Dennis Murphy is working with them.

[Jed]

The Aria 6RW seems like a safe bet, since its Joe's design, .

Not necessarily, look at the THOR redesign thread where they found his crossover lacking in many areas. He crossed way too high for one in the Thor MTM.

[Jed]

I'm doing a MTM right now with the W16 and a Fountek ribbon tweeter and the W16 is -3db @70hz which is perfect for matching with a subwoofer.

How are those W16s? I'd imagine they are awesome drivers considering the motor is a step up from the L16s, which I like very much. Where is the measured cone breakup on the W16s and is it manifesting itself as high odd order harmonic distortion in the passband if used in a 2-way, like the L16s (which I use in a 3 way to avoid that problem).

Jed

[treytexag]

I'd suggest that you look closely at the designs posted on Zalytrons website before settling on one. Dennis doesn't design for Zalytron, AFAIK. They used to have the Hiqtopia design Dennis did for me many years ago posted on their website which was a link to Dennis website. In other words, Zalytrons designs are not sanctioned by Dennis. They did have permission for the links. I've not been very impressed with 90% of the designs Zalytron has listed and wouldn't recommend them.

Jim Salk and Dennis are both friends of mine. Jim's speakers are exceptionally nice and have the highest workmanship. Dennis of course, labors over the designs until the voicing is just right. That's why a simple 2-way MTM like the Song Towers sounds so good. However, Dennis has designs listed on his website that he also tweaked that will sound very similar and are free if you want to build your own cabinet.

The Song Towers will have very good resale value due to the cabinetry and the Salk Sound name.

Jim

Thanks Jim, I appreciate you chiming in here. I have exchanged emails with Jim, and he is very focussed, it seems to me, on making customers happy. The ST's really sounded most excellent to me, primarily imaging, soundstage, and clarity of mid range (if those are the right words, I'm not an audiophile).

Jim, are there any MTM designs or other designs on Dennis Murphy's site that would lend themselves to an MTM sealed enclosure? I could build cabinets if I have too, but I really need to do something for shelf mounting - don't have the floor space AND I've got 10 or more little 2 1/2 year old fingers touching everything "low".

Jim, how do you like the Usher 8945P new Peerless HDS tweet combo for an MTM design, considering the apparent HD performance of these drivers vs. similarly priced other options?

If you've got any thoughts - I'd love to hear them.

Trey

[treytexag]

The 1 cubic ft. cabinet is too big for a sealed MTM with a 5" woofers (unless you want a very low "Q" alignment). I would consider using the .75 MTM cabinet which is still a little too big but you could add some filler blocks if needed.

The midbass driver in the SongTower is pretty average and you can do better than that. Depending on your budget the Seas W15 or W16 are good alternatives. I'm doing a MTM right now with the W16 and a Fountek ribbon tweeter and the W16 is -3db @70hz which is perfect for matching with a subwoofer.

Thank you very much for the input. Could I / would I have the room for an MTM arrangement to fit on the baffle of a 3/4 cubic footer versus a 1.0 cubic footer? I'm flexible, really just looking for a pre-built cabinet option, however, I certainly could build my own cabinets - although at this point, buying something already built does seem to be a fairly cost effective solution.

Anyway, is there room to do a MTM on a 3/4 footer?

Again, thanks for the assist - really appreciate all the good information provided here by all you generous gents. :T

Trey

[treytexag]

Here are some of my options for Sealed MTM

Thank you everyone for helping out here. So many choices here, hard to focus in on any clear answer for me anyway. Seems here are some of my top options for designs that are or could be easily modified as a sealed MTM bookshelf design - may not sound like Salk ST's though :roll:

1. BESL Series 2 MTM kit ($585/pair no cabinets) - link is here BESL Series 2 MTM Kit Don't know much about these.

2. Roman's RS180 / RS28 MTM's over at RJBaudio.com - link is here rjbaudio.com Good performing relatively low cost drivers. Lot of folks have built MTM combos using these drivers, many proven crossover designs available.

3. Roman's Proteus Jr. MTM, also over at RJBaudio.com - link is here Proteus Jr. Uses Seas woofer and tweets, but cabinet looks complicated to build - bet they sound good though!

4. CJD's RS150 / couple of tweeter options MTM over at eldamar.net - link is here CJD's MTM Options Often built, well known and proven design - many tweeter options RS and Seas tweeters

5. Dr. K's MTM, again using the RS 180 / RS28 over at Parts Express - link is here Dr. K's MTM Another popular well proven design built / tweaked by many, and relatively inexpensive

6. Jon Marsh's Modula MTM's, using RS180 / RS28 but Cadillac crossover, evidently - link is here Modula MTM's This is the Modula IV design - first Modulas use Seas tweets. Again, often built, highly tweaked proven design

7. Edit by moderator to remove text and link not allowed per forum rules

Gentlemen, lots of good choices here, not really considering budgetary issues, really looking for best performing design I can use in a prebuilt sealed MTM design. At this point, my two faves are the last two. Any other higher end MTM designs that I've failed to list here?

Please let me know your thoughts guys. Again, sure appreciate everyone's help - this is a great board / forum, very informative, generous folks here. :T

Trey

[---k---]

I'm not sure any of those will sound like the ST to you, but they will be excellent.

I've never heard of the first one. Who knows. You're probably paying a lot for the box - which you should. Boxes are expensive to build.

I would take the Dr. K off the list because the NatP or Roman's MTM will be better.

I would take CJD's off the list, not because it is bad, but because you have to build a box. Go with one of the RS180 MTM.

I don't know much about the Protus Jr. design. You could ask Roman on the PE website if he prefers it to his RS180MTM. I would worry about it's 1st order series crossover, but I'm not that mcuh of a guru.

The last design shouldn't be discussed here.

That leaves you with Jon's Modula MTM or Nat P and Roman's RS180MTM. I think either the NatP or Roman's RS180 2.5 would make you happy. I usually recommend the NatP because I live here and am biased towards our resident guru.

The Modula MTM should only be considered over the NatP for the very serious. The benifits will likely only be heard on very high-end electronics.

If you're willing to build the boxes, just make them floor standers. Or make nice box stands that make the PE cabinets look like floor standers. And, put some subwoofers in those stands too.

[Jim Holtz]

Thanks Jim, I appreciate you chiming in here. I have exchanged emails with Jim, and he is very focussed, it seems to me, on making customers happy. The ST's really sounded most excellent to me, primarily imaging, soundstage, and clarity of mid range (if those are the right words, I'm not an audiophile).

Jim, are there any MTM designs or other designs on Dennis Murphy's site that would lend themselves to an MTM sealed enclosure? I could build cabinets if I have too, but I really need to do something for shelf mounting - don't have the floor space AND I've got 10 or more little 2 1/2 year old fingers touching everything "low".

Jim, how do you like the Usher 8945P new Peerless HDS tweet combo for an MTM design, considering the apparent HD performance of these drivers vs. similarly priced other options?

If you've got any thoughts - I'd love to hear them.

Trey

Hi Trey,

I've not heard the Usher 9845P in any designs but I'm biased against them in spite of their good distortion measurements. They use the same cone material that Scan Speak 8545 drivers use. Actuallly, many consider the Usher to be a clone of the Scans. I've heard any number of Scan designs using this driver and I don't like the mid range. I lacks clarity to my ears. I would expect the same performance from the Usher.

I agree with Rick. The CA15's are nice but average drivers. I think you're enjoying a well designed crossover and the voicing Dennis is known for in the ST. Jim's beautiful cabinet work doesn't hurt either.

Have you considered a monitor sized 3-way? I prefer them to a MTM personally.

Jim

[ThomasW]

If you weren't so fixated on a MTM the Mini-Statements would be a very good option.

Having heard a lot of ScanSpeak and Usher designs I'm in agreement Jim. These are good speakers for people with marginal electronics since IMO they 'homogenized' the sound.

BTW, if you want to understand why Jon's RS180 designs use such elaborate crossovers in comparison to those used by other designers, read his whitepaper... http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=22862

[Jim Holtz]

If you weren't so fixated on a MTM the Mini-Statements would be a very good option.

Hi Thomas,

The premade cabinets and shelf mounting close to walls are the reasons I haven't brought up the Monitor Statements. The design doesn't lend itself well to pre-made cabinets and they need about 12" minimum from the wall behind for decent imaging both due to the open transmission line mids.

Jim

[ThomasW]

Oops I forgot about the cabinet restrictions....

[Rick Craig]

How are those W16s? I'd imagine they are awesome drivers considering the motor is a step up from the L16s, which I like very much. Where is the measured cone breakup on the W16s and is it manifesting itself as high odd order harmonic distortion in the passband if used in a 2-way, like the L16s (which I use in a 3 way to avoid that problem).

Jed

The breakup is right at 5K, very close to the factory response curve. I haven't taken any HD tests. Great driver but I wish it didn't cost so much!

[Rick Craig]

Thank you very much for the input. Could I / would I have the room for an MTM arrangement to fit on the baffle of a 3/4 cubic footer versus a 1.0 cubic footer? I'm flexible, really just looking for a pre-built cabinet option, however, I certainly could build my own cabinets - although at this point, buying something already built does seem to be a fairly cost effective solution.

Anyway, is there room to do a MTM on a 3/4 footer?

Again, thanks for the assist - really appreciate all the good information provided here by all you generous gents. :T

Trey

Yes you can fit a 5" MTM on the .75 cabinet. It's a tight fit but certainly possible to do.

[Rick Craig]

Thank you everyone for helping out here. So many choices here, hard to focus in on any clear answer for me anyway. Seems here are some of my top options for designs that are or could be easily modified as a sealed MTM bookshelf design - may not sound like Salk ST's though :roll:

1. BESL Series 2 MTM kit ($585/pair no cabinets) - link is here BESL Series 2 MTM Kit Don't know much about these.

2. Roman's RS180 / RS28 MTM's over at RJBaudio.com - link is here rjbaudio.com Good performing relatively low cost drivers. Lot of folks have built MTM combos using these drivers, many proven crossover designs available.

3. Roman's Proteus Jr. MTM, also over at RJBaudio.com - link is here Proteus Jr. Uses Seas woofer and tweets, but cabinet looks complicated to build - bet they sound good though!

4. CJD's RS150 / couple of tweeter options MTM over at eldamar.net - link is here CJD's MTM Options Often built, well known and proven design - many tweeter options RS and Seas tweeters

5. Dr. K's MTM, again using the RS 180 / RS28 over at Parts Express - link is here Dr. K's MTM Another popular well proven design built / tweaked by many, and relatively inexpensive

6. Jon Marsh's Modula MTM's, using RS180 / RS28 but Cadillac crossover, evidently - link is here Modula MTM's This is the Modula IV design - first Modulas use Seas tweets. Again, often built, highly tweaked proven design

7. Edit by moderator to remove text and link not allowed per forum rules

Gentlemen, lots of good choices here, not really considering budgetary issues, really looking for best performing design I can use in a prebuilt sealed MTM design. At this point, my two faves are the last two. Any other higher end MTM designs that I've failed to list here?

Please let me know your thoughts guys. Again, sure appreciate everyone's help - this is a great board / forum, very informative, generous folks here. :T

Trey

I recently finished a MTM with the RS150 and Scan-Speak neo tweeter. You can fit that in the PE .5 cubic ft. cabinet.

[CraigJ]

Imaging and soundstage, mid-bass clarity and crystal clear highs are important. Please advise your thoughts gentlemen.

Thanks a lot.

Trey

Trey,
I think you are selling the Statements line short by not looking into the Statements Monitors.
Craig

[treytexag]

OK guys, you got me looking at other-than-MTM options now. I'm not stuck on MTM's - just read a lot of posts that discuss MT's, but then follow up by saying that if the duties will include some HT work, the doubling the surface area of the woofers helps tremendously.

I will use these speakers - front and left, with appropriate matching center channel for about 1/2 critical listening, alone sitting in the sweet spot, and the other 1/2 for HT use, where others are typically in the room as well. We really enjoy our movies at sufficiently high sound pressure levels - BTW, I already have a 15" sub being driven by a BASH amp.

Anyway, the three ways are intriguing, to say the least. No reason whatsoever I couldn't / shouldn't consider appropriate 3 way designs - I agree men - thanks for suggesting it.

BTW, I really like the Statement monitors. I would have to build cabinets -that's doable, and I do see the open backed tunnel on the mid - again I'll have a placement issue - perhaps. Planned placement of these is on an existing countertop that is backed by shelving behind it. So any opening would not / could not by definition be closer to any wall behind it than the depth of the shelving - I'm guessing 12". So, that may mean I can do the monitors without giving up height and width of the soundstage - one of the things I'm wanting here.

Guys, great suggestions on the 3 ways, and in particular Jims / Curt's statements - of course they're nice due to well known top designers already built and tweaked and reviewed!! There was this other guy on another forum pushing me to build his never before built MTM design - that scares me for sure.

Since y'all got me looking at 3 ways now, ones that I can shelf mount - any other compelling designs you might suggest? Sure appreciate any other suggestions. Y'all are great BTW - thanks again.

Trey in Houston

[MikePM]

I don't post often at this website, although I read it frequently, so I hope my comments are OK. I was encouraged to post since no one else commented regarding the BESL design you list as your 1st option. I live in Texas and have had the opportunity to hear his series 2 MT at a friend's home as well as to A/B my Zaph L18 project with a pair of BESL 5MT speakers.

Basically Phil's designs have the excellent imaging you are seeking, and the design of his series 2 is very similar to the Song Towers with the substitution of the Sea's Excel tweeter for the Hiquphon. Phil is known for his excellent crossovers which tend to yield very detailed sound and great imaging, so I suspect they would be on par with Dennis Murphy's outstanding work. I have not heard the Song Tower, but would expect the 2MTM kit to sound similar based on the similarity of drivers, configuration, and design reputation. Of course the series 2MTM uses sealed PE cabinets while the Song Tower is a transmission line design.

For what its worth, I read on another forum that Phil might be working with Salk Audio to develop a new design to be added to the line up and sold alongside the Song Series and other Salk designs. Unfortunately Phil doesn't update his bambergaudio.com website often, so I have no idea if this is pure rumor or if he has such a project in the works--I am waiting to hear more about his overdue Seas ER18 TMM design.

I should also say that in my A/B test, the Zaph L18 was similar to the Series 5 in overall voicing and presentation but gave up a little detail to the far more expensive seas mag. cone drivers and millennium tweeter used in the 5 series. If Zaphs XG18 design is similarly voiced, it would also be an excellent choice.

[treytexag]

Mike, thanks allot for responding. Very interesting comments. I may try to call Phil - don't know if he talks to folks on the phone, and see what his thoughts are.

Mike again appreciate the help bud!

Trey