ZDT 3.5 vs Statements vs CJD Khanspires, etc.

[JJones]

Opinions please! Comments both objective and subjective are wanted! opcorn:

Going to build some L + R mains for home theater + loud music playback soon. These are for a co-worker, he wants deep but "tight" bass and he used to be a club DJ so he likes to crank it up loud while hopefully still sounding good and clean.

Was hoping for some opinions from folks that have compared a few different speakers and can comment on differences/preferences.

Considering the ZDT 3.5s and other similar speakers because of the high value of the Dayton RS drivers. I was also thinking, that, perhaps a pair of RS180s covering the low end wouldn't be quite enough for Jason (the coworker who these will be for). On the other hand, not sure if we want to go as far as putting two RS270s on each speaker either, but maybe.

He said he would like to not have to get a subwoofer, but, I told him that for home theater, he would probably really appreciate the sub, even if his mains go down low and hard.

I have a bit of a bias towards not spending a lot on crossovers.

Thanks in advance to any who post!

[Jed]

Well, for loud and good quality deep bass I'd go with the design with the most woofers and/or largest diamater. That leaves out the Zaph design.

So, why not just go with CJD's massive tower with the 10s?

[cjd]

None of these designs use the RS270 so you're safe there. Unless you are thinking of the larger WWMTM's I did.

Statements vs Khanspires is more of a personality thing, but here's my understanding - please note, I'm pushing the point in both these descriptions to make a difference that is probably more subtle seem more obvious - anyhow: if you're into airy highs and that awesome soundstaging, think Statements. If you're into precision (perhaps to the point of being analytical) think Khanspires. You can upsize the box and port the Khans for more bass extension. But, they hit quite hard and until you add a sub to cover below 30Hz, you probably won't notice what you're missing till you turn the sub off again.

ZDT3.5 is a different speaker entirely, and I'm not sure how to compare, but my guess is it will fall into the sound-style category of the Khanspires, in a smaller box. Zaph does superb work. They probably start to diminish below 45Hz - great for rock'n'roll I think. I use the RS180 as a mid in the larger WWMTM 3-ways I did.

It's always always always worth paying for a good crossover. Never consider the proportion of driver to crossover cost. ONLY look at the total cost. Most designs around here we try to highlight where a buck can be saved vs where it shouldn't. Using cored inductors for the 10mH in the Khans, for example, should be just fine, but using a smaller gauge inductor is problematic because it changes impedance, which alters response - not a way to save. I think I also highlighted a couple small value caps that improve phase integration but can be left out if you want to save a few bucks.

In other words, get over your bias. We don't like spending lots of cash either. We design as we do because we feel less is too much compromise. (I know I am often criticized for the parts count, then folks turn around and comment on how even and accurate and all that... you get one or the other, IMO I can earn more money, but listening to mucked up sound? bah. I can't get those minutes back. :P )

[cjd]

So, why not just go with CJD's massive tower with the 10s?

Oh, it lacks so much in the bass! I mean, even a 16Hz pedal tone doesn't render on this system...

On the other hand, they can make me giggle still, so it's gotta be surprisingly good into the mid-upper 20 Hz range.

[Jed]

Oh, it lacks so much in the bass! I mean, even a 16Hz pedal tone doesn't render on this system...

On the other hand, they can make me giggle still, so it's gotta be surprisingly good into the mid-upper 20 Hz range.

I can only imagine how much air those Dual RS270s move! I've got a single Seas 10" playing right now and it is very nice, but having 2 is much better for bass heavy music like techno and dance music, that his friend seems to prefer. I'm assuming.

1 vote for CJD's 10" RS 3-way or the Khanspires because the FR plots I've seen of CJD systems, it looks to me like he voices his speakers nice and flat. No BBC dips etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of W4s, but in applications where placement can become an issue, the dipole mids might become an issue depending on the setup. With my Tombstones dipole mid design, I need at least 3 feet from the back wall so that the soundstage reaches its potential, for example.

Jed

[WillyD]

I have the ZDT3s, but I wouldn't recommend them to someone who doesn't plan on using a sub. I have them crossed over at 80Hz, and it is great. But I have been spoiled by my subwoofer, so it would take a considerable pair of speakers for me to use sans sub.

But it is relative. When I first built my Modula MTs, I was so shocked at the bass output. This was before I built my sub though...so your friend Jason may be really happy with the bass output from something like the ZDT3s. Guarantee you they'd have more bass than most commercial stuff at a competitive price point.

[---k---]

I don't really feel like getting into the comparison game. But I do want to make a few points:

1) If your buddy is a DJ and just likes big party speakers with a peaking bass to give you lots of slam and feel the bass sound, I don't think any of these designs would make him happy. Most DIY designers focus on more of a hifi type sound than that pro concert sound. The Khans go plenty loud, but they are accurate and faithful to the original. I love to watch the Blue Man Group Audio DVD. They do amazing well. Sounded better than the real thing in Chicago. But they aren't going to make your heart palpitate like a car or club system do.

2) We don't believe in fancy parts for crossovers, but do believe using enough parts to do the job. To use the accuracy of a metal cone driver, you have to have more parts in the crossover. But, you'll notice no fancy film caps or whatever in any of the builds your talking about. I used all budget Dayton caps, and the budget crossovers has an iron core option.

3) A subwoofer is a must for movies. I'm thinking of movies like Batman Begins. When the Tumbler takes off. No speaker is going to reproduce that like a sub can. If you want room shaking power and to feel the 10 - 30hz spectrum that is in movies, you need a sub. The RS225 ported is likely pretty impressive, but it just isn't enough. And, taking the <50 off the RS225 will make them sound better. A sub is even more needed if you go for a pro-style party speaker - those have massive kick drum slam, but drop off by 60hz.

Oh, and if you build the Khans - place them close to the wall.

[JJones]

Ha, that would be over the top, if you manged to generate the kind of ~20 - 30Hz SPLs that you can get in a car w/a sub, in your living room.

Thanks for lots of quick replies guys!

Can we get any critical feedback from someone who has A/B'd some of these speakers, done a direct comparison? In depth listening resulting in personal preferences, aside from just the bottom end?

Zaph sometimes gives some decent discriptions on each of his speaker design pages, and fairly discloses limitations and such, and I'm guessing most of his designs will sound better than most of what I can audition at an audio boutique. Listening in a car, or a club, is fun, and if I blew out a window on my house listening to Chemical Brothers or Prodigy, I'd say "wow, look at that, I blew out a fricken window with that bass!" - but - Jason did stress that he wanted "accurate" bass. And, the biggest reason I'm going to build these for him, is so I'll have them for a few days to listen to myself, without having to commit to a particular design for my own speakers yet. My funds are limited for the next year or two, looking at getting a better job soon, wife will graduate college, etc. So I appreciate the chance to build (and listen to extensively) speakers for somebody else, before I decide on which ones I want to pay for, for myself.

I WILL stress to him to get a sub.

I imagine not many speakers could compare to a well designed pair which use a pair of RS270s, and, that trying to pair a sub up with ported speakers can just never be perfect for music (though it's more than fine for movies, in my experience).

A really good sub is expensive, I think, needs lots of power in the amp (= $).

So, the speakers with the dual RS270s have an appealing wow factor, but maybe speakers with a pair of RS225s ported will have enough low end balls for most any music to sound from good to great, without a sub (other than a few sorts of music such as a few classical pieces, low pipe organ notes, etc). For the techno/club/electronica, fire up the sub and the imperfect mating of ported L+Rs with the sub can be overlooked...

If he was going to get a really good sounding sub, then, I might say stick a sock in the mains ports and cross at 80 Hz when you do music w/the sub on, but I think he'll want to keep the sub inexpensive (less than a couple hundred $ maybe?)

If I had to pick a design for MYSELF right now, today, from Zaph's page, I think it would be the waveguide TMM.

For the simple sake of trying one of Zaph's designs, I might go ahead and build a pair of the BAMTMs, simply because they're so affordable. (I have already ordered the parts for a pair of his single driver speakers using the M3N drivers, but, I don't know if listening to just those simple little speakers will give one the full appreciation of Zaph's design talents?)

I've heard a pair of speakers which had only 5.25" woofers for the low end sound GOOD for most music without a sub. Not to say something wasn't missing, but, they were still pleasant to listen to music on. So, maybe you'll miss some fun 20Hz notes with "Just" a quad of 225s, but surely, they must give you good, solid, bass?

Jason WAS going to just go and buy a 5.1 setup from a box store, don't know which, maybe Best Buy or something? So I told him "A pair of these ZDT 3.5s will probably sound better than some speakers costing thousands of $, and, even if you didn't end up liking them, I'm sure you could get enough on EBAY that you wouldn't loose any money. (I hope that's ok, if he did do that? I mean, it's not like we're gonna try to make a business out of selling somebody else's designs in quantity?)

I have actually listened to a lot of $1,000 - $25,000 commercial speakers, and thouroughly disliked MOST of them. I'm very excited about the Dayton DIY and listening to the speakers that will be there!

CJD, I wish you could bring your big speakers with the dual RS270s! You could win the "Bass output" category! (I mean, as long as they are judging mains in that category)

EDIT: What I'd been thinking about, since I started this thread was: build the ZDT3.5s, except, use RS225s in place of the RS180s? I haven't looked at whether it would work yet ~ so not sure if it's a good idea yet. Will try modeling something like that in LspCAD sometime this week... Hmm ~ looking at Zaph's crossover now, I'm thinking maybe just replace the bottom RS180 with either one RS225 or one RS270... Hmm, interesting...

[JJones]

I have the ZDT3s, but I wouldn't recommend them to someone who doesn't plan on using a sub. I have them crossed over at 80Hz, and it is great. But I have been spoiled by my subwoofer, so it would take a considerable pair of speakers for me to use sans sub.

But it is relative. When I first built my Modula MTs, I was so shocked at the bass output. This was before I built my sub though...so your friend Jason may be really happy with the bass output from something like the ZDT3s. Guarantee you they'd have more bass than most commercial stuff at a competitive price point.

Did you build the ZDT3s sealed? Or do they have ports and you just stuff the ports when you use the sub?

So how do you like the ZDT3s compared to the Modula MTs?

[WillyD]

I ported them. I don't stuff the ports when I use the sub, no reason to really.

I find the ZDT3s to be more revealing/less forgiving and of course they have more dynamic capability. Thats the best way to sum it up.

[stangbat]

EDIT: What I'd been thinking about, since I started this thread was: build the ZDT3.5s, except, use RS225s in place of the RS180s? I haven't looked at whether it would work yet ~ so not sure if it's a good idea yet. Will try modeling something like that in LspCAD sometime this week... Hmm ~ looking at Zaph's crossover now, I'm thinking maybe just replace the bottom RS180 with either one RS225 or one RS270... Hmm, interesting...

You may know this and maybe I'm misunderstanding your intent. But you can't do this and expect to have the ZDT3.5 anymore. With the driver change the crossovers will be incorrect. The baffle width will change, which will effect all the work Zaph has done to get the speakers to sound the way they do. If you change the woofers, an entire re-design is needed. Zaph even changes or pulls designs due to manufacturing differences in the *same* drivers. There is no way using a completely different driver will give you the sound that is expected without a bit of work.

[---k---]

Can we get any critical feedback from someone who has A/B'd some of these speakers, done a direct comparison? In depth listening resulting in personal preferences, aside from just the bottom end?

No. No one has done this. There are like only 3 pairs of Khans in existence and probably a dozen or two Statements. And these speakers don't travel well.

EDIT: What I'd been thinking about, since I started this thread was: build the ZDT3.5s, except, use RS225s in place of the RS180s? I haven't looked at whether it would work yet ~ so not sure if it's a good idea yet. Will try modeling something like that in LspCAD sometime this week... Hmm ~ looking at Zaph's crossover now, I'm thinking maybe just replace the bottom RS180 with either one RS225 or one RS270... Hmm, interesting...

No. Changing drivers requires new measurements and models. Not for the faint of heart. Also, would require a wider box which would screw with the tweeter response.

[stangbat]

No. No one has done this. There are like only 3 pairs of Khans in existence and probably a dozen or two Statements. And these speakers don't travel well.

Where are you located, JJones? As Ryan said, you probably aren't going to find anyone that has A/B tested any of these. But you could be close to someone that has built one of the designs.

[Jim Holtz]

No. No one has done this. There are like only 3 pairs of Khans in existence and probably a dozen or two Statements. And these speakers don't travel well.

Hi Ryan,

Actually there are closer to 40-50 pairs of Statements series speakers built so far and possibly more that I'm not aware of. Curt and I both gets a lot of direct emails from builders that never post. The furthest away that I know of are a pair in Sweden and Bogota, Columbia.

Honestly, I wouldn't recommend the Statements in this situation. The Statements do very well on both home theater and well recorded music but bear little resemblance to the pro audio sound of a club. The Statements were designed to provide audiophile quality sound from audiophile quality recordings. I think they'll be unimpressive sounding compared to club type speakers with bloated mid bass.

No offense, just my opinion.


Jim

[JJones]

No. No one has done this. There are like only 3 pairs of Khans in existence and probably a dozen or two Statements. And these speakers don't travel well.

Well we see in another reply that many more pairs have been built than that, yet still, no one has ever brought them to a DIY event yet?

Hmm, perhaps it's unlikely that such comparisons have been done, but can we be so certain it hasn't happened? Once you get bit by the DIY bug, you tend to keep building speakers, no? And, if there are two different designs that use several of the same drivers, it would seem to be appealing to try more than one design with them?

Didn't, in fact, you and CJD compare your speakers and his in side-by-side listening?

There is always the potential for hurt feelings and stepped on egos, but I think, despite that, it would still be worth while to the DIY community to have more A/B comparisons and critical in depth reviews/comparisons between different designs?

No. Changing drivers requires new measurements and models. Not for the faint of heart. Also, would require a wider box which would screw with the tweeter response.

I'd wager, that if the top portion of the speaker's width, and driver layout, remained at least, close, if not exactly the same, that if one simply made the lower portion of the cabinet broader/deeper, and, modeled the response to determine what crossover changes were needed, that the end speaker will still sound better than what you could buy at a store for a similar price, no?

You may know this and maybe I'm misunderstanding your intent. But you can't do this and expect to have the ZDT3.5 anymore. With the driver change the crossovers will be incorrect. The baffle width will change, which will effect all the work Zaph has done to get the speakers to sound the way they do. If you change the woofers, an entire re-design is needed. Zaph even changes or pulls designs due to manufacturing differences in the *same* drivers. There is no way using a completely different driver will give you the sound that is expected without a bit of work.

"a bit of work" hehe...

When has building DIY speakers ever involved just a bit of work?

Well, here's one possible scenario: I go ahead and build the ZDT 3.5s first, listen to those, maybe satisfied, who knows?

I wasn't expecting to simply take a ZDT 3.5 and just "stick" the RS270 (or RS225) in without any other changes. Depending on how the cabinet would be modified to accommodate the larger speaker the following could be true, if we keep one RS180: the crossovers between the RS180, RS52, and ND20FB could remain (mostly) the same along with the baffle layout/driver placement. I think that is significant because there is a LOT of experience and knowledge behind Zaph's crossovers that we can benefit from while still adapting his design to (perhaps) better suit our own tastes?

Honestly, I wouldn't recommend the Statements in this situation. The Statements do very well on both home theater and well recorded music but bear little resemblance to the pro audio sound of a club. The Statements were designed to provide audiophile quality sound from audiophile quality recordings. I think they'll be unimpressive sounding compared to club type speakers with bloated mid bass.

Well... I guess you wouldn't want to waste fine red wine on bums who'd be happy enough with Wild Irish Rose?

While I do sometimes appreciate "bloated mid bass" I'd also like to be able to play classical and other acoustic instrument music and have it sound like the real thing. I'm guessing Jason has a similar opinion, I'll ask him later.

If one was to play, say, Chemical Brothers "Block Rock'n Beats" on your Statements, do you think it would sound bad? Couldn't one simply add a sub with the low pass filter turned off, if one wanted to "bloat" the midbass?

IMHO any "audiophile" quality speakers which have: wide dynamic range, moderately high output capacity, and the capability to play flat and accurate down to below 30 Hz sound excellent playing back music by bands such as Ministry, Tool, or club/electronica genre music. Given speakers with the same qualities, except, only able to play down to about 45 - 50 Hz, the same is true if you add in a sub.

[Saurav]

In theory, you can design accurate speakers with good pro drivers, and get something that has lower power compression than most speakers using conventional hi-fi drivers. The problem is, such designs are few and far between. Most of what you'll find out there is geared towards live sound reinforcement, and so probably isn't quite what you're looking for.

At a recent audio show I heard Tool (and a pretty poor recording too) on a 4-way horn rig in a large conference room. It sounded amazing, more 'alive' than most systems I've heard. But that system would fail on soundstaging, imaging, shimmery treble, tonal neutrality. What's important to you? What are you looking for in your sound? That's where you need to start, IMO.

IMHO any "audiophile" quality speakers which have: wide dynamic range, moderately high output capacity

Once you get into numbers, you'll probably find that people have very different ideas on what constitutes 'moderately high output'. For example, this forum has a few threads which follow a common theme - they start out with "I bought some compression tweeters and waveguides, it was a leap of faith, I've never heard a compression tweeter I've liked in the past", and end up with "The dynamics make every dome tweeter I've heard sound like a toy, I'm never going back to dome tweeters again". I'm exaggerating, but you get the idea. It can be done, but few people have done it. It's also hard to find a common frame of reference, since even fewer people have heard good designs using many different approaches.

[Jim Holtz]

Well we see in another reply that many more pairs have been built than that, yet still, no one has ever brought them to a DIY event yet?

Hmm, perhaps it's unlikely that such comparisons have been done, but can we be so certain it hasn't happened? Once you get bit by the DIY bug, you tend to keep building speakers, no? And, if there are two different designs that use several of the same drivers, it would seem to be appealing to try more than one design with them?

Didn't, in fact, you and CJD compare your speakers and his in side-by-side listening?

There is always the potential for hurt feelings and stepped on egos, but I think, despite that, it would still be worth while to the DIY community to have more A/B comparisons and critical in depth reviews/comparisons between different designs?

I'd wager, that if the top portion of the speaker's width, and driver layout, remained at least, close, if not exactly the same, that if one simply made the lower portion of the cabinet broader/deeper, and, modeled the response to determine what crossover changes were needed, that the end speaker will still sound better than what you could buy at a store for a similar price, no?

"a bit of work" hehe...

When has building DIY speakers ever involved just a bit of work?

Well, here's one possible scenario: I go ahead and build the ZDT 3.5s first, listen to those, maybe satisfied, who knows?

I wasn't expecting to simply take a ZDT 3.5 and just "stick" the RS270 (or RS225) in without any other changes. Depending on how the cabinet would be modified to accommodate the larger speaker the following could be true, if we keep one RS180: the crossovers between the RS180, RS52, and ND20FB could remain (mostly) the same along with the baffle layout/driver placement. I think that is significant because there is a LOT of experience and knowledge behind Zaph's crossovers that we can benefit from while still adapting his design to (perhaps) better suit our own tastes?

Well... I guess you wouldn't want to waste fine red wine on bums who'd be happy enough with Wild Irish Rose?

While I do sometimes appreciate "bloated mid bass" I'd also like to be able to play classical and other acoustic instrument music and have it sound like the real thing. I'm guessing Jason has a similar opinion, I'll ask him later.

If one was to play, say, Chemical Brothers "Block Rock'n Beats" on your Statements, do you think it would sound bad? Couldn't one simply add a sub with the low pass filter turned off, if one wanted to "bloat" the midbass?

IMHO any "audiophile" quality speakers which have: wide dynamic range, moderately high output capacity, and the capability to play flat and accurate down to below 30 Hz sound excellent playing back music by bands such as Ministry, Tool, or club/electronica genre music. Given speakers with the same qualities, except, only able to play down to about 45 - 50 Hz, the same is true if you add in a sub.

Sorry if my thoughts came across wrong or hurt your feelings. I didn't intend it that way. Simply stated, VERY little rock music is well recorded. You commented that you'd heard many high end speakers costing up to $25K and didn't like them. That was the basis and reason for the context of my post. The fact is, a very revealing and detailed speaker will not sound good on average rock music. It's not the speaker, it's the fact you're hearing what was actually recorded.

If you listen to well recorded classical, jazz and blues, the Statements are a very good match.

Regarding the modifications to Zaph's (or anyone else's) speaker, change a driver start over on the crossover. Minor cabinet changes can be done but not major redesigns with out major crossover changes too.

The Statements and Khans were both at the Iowa DIY event last fall. Only the winner of each class was published and it was a commercial design by Selah Audio. However the top three speakers in the Unlimited Class were extremely close together with only tenths of a percent separating them. Other than that, ask Doug Petersen.

BTW, I do in fact appreciate fine red wine and wouldn't drink Wild Irish rose. I must fit your profile.

Jim

[JJones]

Sorry if my thoughts came across wrong or hurt your feelings. I didn't intend it that way. Simply stated, VERY little rock music is well recorded.

No problem! I was just pretending to take offense.

You commented that you'd heard many high end speakers costing up to $25K and didn't like them. That was the basis and reason for the context of my post. The fact is, a very revealing and detailed speaker will not sound good on average rock music. It's not the speaker, it's the fact you're hearing what was actually recorded.

At first, when I started listening to CDs when they were new, I was impressed, but not too much later I started disliking what recording engineers were doing w/pop/rock music, it was like they realized "wow, I can put as much treble as I want" and they started making bad sounding discs, then, more and more "features" like compression have come along to ruin the sound...

Some CD's I would use to judge an "audiophile" quality speaker: Miles Davis "Kind of Blue" (almost NO speakers can make it sound like a trumpet is right there in the room), some solo cello (the only solo cell recording I have is a 2 CD Yoyo Ma set, I don't know how good the recording quality is), some old Rickie Lee Jones CDs I have (because I've known the music for ages), From the Fleetwood Mac CD Rumors: Track #3. Never Going Back Again (I particularly recommend that in anyone's collection of "test songs" for the twangy metalic guitar), I also use Jennifer Warnes "Bird on a Wire" because it's the song I like on the one "Reference Test CDs" I have.

If you listen to well recorded classical, jazz and blues, the Statements are a very good match.

You don't happen to have The Matrix soundtrack, do you? That's the CD that I throw on at the end of an audition; a speaker that sounds great otherwise sometimes just can't handle that CD well...

Regarding the modifications to Zaph's (or anyone else's) speaker, change a driver start over on the crossover. Minor cabinet changes can be done but not major redesigns with out major crossover changes too.

Surely, Zaph's crossover would be, at the very least, a good starting point? Jason seems to be sold on the ZDT 3.5s + a decent subwoofer, so, I might not end up trying any modifications.

The Statements and Khans were both at the Iowa DIY event last fall. Only the winner of each class was published and it was a commercial design by Selah Audio. However the top three speakers in the Unlimited Class were extremely close together with only tenths of a percent separating them. Other than that, ask Doug Petersen.

Ah, thanks for the info, I hadn't actually heard of Selah Audio yet either.

BTW, I do in fact appreciate fine red wine and wouldn't drink Wild Irish rose. I must fit your profile.

I don't think I made a profile on here yet? ( :P ) I had some really great red wine once, and since then everything else I've tried just hasn't been the same

For my taste in speakers, I should clarify further. The loud, boomy, gut pounding bass is FUN, but... See some of the tunes I listed above for auditioning speakers, to get a better idea...

[Jim Holtz]

OK, that changes my recommendation. The music you listed will sound great on the Statements. However, here's what I'd suggest if the budget will permit it. It'll do it all and do it very well. :T

Jim

[cjd]

The music you listed will sound great on the Statements. Better on the Khans though. No, maybe the Statements. Though, could be the Khans...

No seriously, your'e asking for a comparison here where the differences are on the subtle end and probably have more to do with taste than anything. Both will be very accurate, solid bass (heck, same bass drivers!) but will have some distinguishing characteristics despite this. These differences I tried to highlight previously by blowing them out of proportion.

A/B and DIY event don't usually go hand-in-hand. They were both heard by many people, just not A/B'd.

Also, I want to comment again - none of the designs you have specifically mentioned use the RS270 - nor CAN they use the RS270 without some changes to the crossover - i.e. a different design. Same problem you run into trying to fit RS225's into Zaph's design.

And finally - Jim's suggestion is excellent. That configuration is one I had in mind with the Khans (or even a sub on either end, so SWMTMWS). The statements, of course, also work superbly this way.

You know, you're just going to have to build them all and find out yourself.

C

[Brian Bunge]

Hell, at this point I don't even think I could give away my speakers with the dual 270's. Shipping costs have killed the deal for any potential new owners!

[---k---]

Hi Ryan,

Actually there are closer to 40-50 pairs of Statements series speakers built so far and possibly more that I'm not aware of. Curt and I both gets a lot of direct emails from builders that never post. The furthest away that I know of are a pair in Sweden and Bogota, Columbia.

Jim

Wow Jim! That is pretty impressive. I was totally guessing based on what I've seen here. I had no idea. I think they are worthy of having that many builds. You, Curt and Wayne did an excellent job and created something unique that has found a good niche.

[---k---]

I'm exhausted from work and being on trains for 5 hours today. This post is more exhausting. I feel like I'm being required to respond and it feels like work.

As was said, these designs were both at Iowa and given high marks. But listen to each for 10 minutes with other speakers listened to in between in a big auditorium doesn't allow for fair comparisions to be made. As I said, mine don't travel well. I spent $160 to rent a minivan to take them to Iowa, because I wanted to share them. But that was the last time mine are moving. I'm satisfied with mine, I have no need to move them to A/B them to satisfy my ego. I'm sure other builders feel the same.

And, the ZDT3.5 were not publish before Iowa.

I agree with what Jim and CJD have posted. I don't think I can add much.

If we can't talk you out of making changes to a published design, don't expect much help. Also, don't complain or bad mouth the designer if it sounds like crap.

[djg]

I think you should go over to Bill Fitzmaurice's site and look at his stuff. There are people building his PA designs for home use, and they are real happy. Loud, dynamic, very efficient. Just what your friend is used to.

[JJones]

I think you should go over to Bill Fitzmaurice's site and look at his stuff. There are people building his PA designs for home use, and they are real happy. Loud, dynamic, very efficient. Just what your friend is used to.

I had a look, some interesting ideas, my uncle was asking me about a PA setup for a band last year, I'll tell him about that site.

OK, that changes my recommendation. The music you listed will sound great on the Statements. However, here's what I'd suggest if the budget will permit it. It'll do it all and do it very well. :T

Jim

Well, that would probably do nicely!

I'm exhausted from work and being on trains for 5 hours today. This post is more exhausting. I feel like I'm being required to respond and it feels like work.

Ok ~ you don't HAVE to reply, if you don't have opinions that you feel like sharing, sorry if it seemed a chore to you Ryan. We all have bad days, and tired times when things just aren't as much fun.

If we can't talk you out of making changes to a published design, don't expect much help.

Wouldn't that be against the whole spirit of DIY audio? Like telling a baby bird: Hey, don't try to fly, it might be dangerous!

Also, don't complain or bad mouth the designer if it sounds like crap.

Well, you can just say "we told you so!" - But sure, if I mucked with the design as much as changing a driver, then proceeded to say "That designer XXX sucks, his speaker sounds terrible" I'd be out of line, and particularly so, if I hadn't even built the speaker to his specifications first, before attempting a modified design, and then comparing one to the other...

...You know, you're just going to have to build them all and find out yourself...

I have this idea I want to sell to google, then I'll do that... I wish... Except for the filthy rich that don't have to work, I think those that earn enough $ to build each and every each decent DIY design are typically also those that have to work too hard at their job to have enough time to do so. I'm currently at the other end of the spectrum: my job is low stress and easy, mostly I just sit and wait for the phone to ring, correspondingly, my pay is about 1/4 of what it was at the big corporate job I used to have. So, I'm kinda poor (thus, happy to have the opportunity to build speakers for Jason) but I get to have more quality time with my kid.

I think there is a consensus here: all these designs were talking about are fine speakers. I guess also, since they're not commercial designs, and they're kind of like somebody's kids, in a way, nobody who wants to be a respected part of the community woud want to be too overly analytical and critical, and point out flaws..... Other than to offer a few suggestions on improvements that could be made.

[JJones]

I ported them. I don't stuff the ports when I use the sub, no reason to really.

I find the ZDT3s to be more revealing/less forgiving and of course they have more dynamic capability. Thats the best way to sum it up.

The reason to seal the ports would be that there is a dramatic phase shift at the bottom of the port's output frequency such that ported speakers won't crossover smoothly to a sub the way sealed speakers can.

[Dennis H]

Just to be a contrarian, going by the PE published curves, the RS180 and RS225 are pretty dang close and could probably be swapped for each other as far as a 3-way crossover at 3-400 Hz would be concerned. The box tuning would need to be redesigned of course.

[JJones]

Just to be a contrarian, going by the PE published curves, the RS180 and RS225 are pretty dang close and could probably be swapped for each other as far as a 3-way crossover at 3-400 Hz would be concerned. The box tuning would need to be redesigned of course.

Hey, thanks Dennis, I really don't think it would be that big of a deal to swap a 225 for a 180 on a ZDT 3.5 (the lower one, anyway) as long as you give it the right enclosure volume, tune the port right, and make whatever minor adjustments to the crossover as needed. :T

It is quite suprising how much of a "oh, you couldn't do that" attitude there is, considering it's a DIY forum! :rofl:

If you look at the Parts Express reviews, you'll see hundreds of posts saying "I just popped this XXX driver in my XXX speaker, it didn't quite fit until I cut out a little more space for it, and I didn't change the crossover or anything, but now the speaker sounds even better than it did before. [ *cough*, ahem, not that those are the examples I want to follow :P]

And, here I was saying that I'm gonna custom build the cabinet to accommodate the greater volume needed, without changing the baffle layout of the upper speakers, AND, modeling and measuring the crossover to see what (if any) changes need to be made, and people STILL say "oh, don't do that"? :

[Blktre]

It is quite suprising how much of a "oh, you couldn't do that" attitude there is, considering it's a DIY forum! :rofl:


And, here I was saying that I'm gonna custom build the cabinet to accommodate the greater volume needed, without changing the baffle layout of the upper speakers, AND, modeling and measuring the crossover to see what (if any) changes need to be made, and people STILL say "oh, don't do that"? :

Its not so much NOT do that. Its already a known that alot of changes need to be made. The point others were trying to say is don't call them ZDT3.5's. Krutke has gone to great lengths in his designs and offers them for free. So give credit where credit is due then change the name of the design. You keep calling your redesign ZDT3.5's then get upset when somebody else calls you on it. Thats all. Im sure everybody wishes you luck in your endeavor and would be interested in your results of a re-named speaker design.

[stangbat]

Hey, thanks Dennis, I really don't think it would be that big of a deal to swap a 225 for a 180 on a ZDT 3.5 (the lower one, anyway) as long as you give it the right enclosure volume, tune the port right, and make whatever minor adjustments to the crossover as needed. :T

It is quite suprising how much of a "oh, you couldn't do that" attitude there is, considering it's a DIY forum! :rofl:

If you look at the Parts Express reviews, you'll see hundreds of posts saying "I just popped this XXX driver in my XXX speaker, it didn't quite fit until I cut out a little more space for it, and I didn't change the crossover or anything, but now the speaker sounds even better than it did before. [ *cough*, ahem, not that those are the examples I want to follow :P]

And, here I was saying that I'm gonna custom build the cabinet to accommodate the greater volume needed, without changing the baffle layout of the upper speakers, AND, modeling and measuring the crossover to see what (if any) changes need to be made, and people STILL say "oh, don't do that"? :

We don't know you, your background, and your knowledge base. The safest reply someone can give when somebody comes along and suggests changing a known and proven design is, "Don't do that." The reasons for not changing things have been given, and none of them are wrong. I don't remember anyone saying, "Don't do that!" and not stating why. The people here are giving good advice, so go easy on them and give them credit for looking out for you.

Your first mention of tweaking the ZDT3.5 was simply, "...build the ZDT3.5s, except, use RS225s in place of the RS180s." (my emphasis) Nothing was mentioned about keeping the baffle width the same, volume changes, crossover changes, not changing the upper woofer, etc. What did you expect people to say? Later on you clarified your idea a little more and it now makes more sense. Once people realize that you know what you are doing, and know how to change a design, and know the work that is involved in changing a design, the "Don't do that" attitude will change. The intent of the advice given was to try and prevent someone from making a mistake and being disappointed with a build and a design. You'll often see someone complaining about a design only to find out that they changed things. Things that they didn't realize would matter and are *the* reason for them not being happy.

So go ahead and tweak and change. Nobody is discouraging that if you understand what it entails.

[impala454]

OK, that changes my recommendation. The music you listed will sound great on the Statements. However, here's what I'd suggest if the budget will permit it. It'll do it all and do it very well. :T

Jim

I still drool every time I see those things...

[Jim Holtz]

I still drool every time I see those things...

Chris is still very happy with them. :T

Jim