Hello HTGuide

**---k---** · 05 July 2008, 12:25 Saturday

We really need an FAQ to state this. This comes up over and over.

There are two schools of speaker design.

1.) Pick some drivers and use text book crossovers or crossovers designed with software and manufacturer's data. This can be fun and provide decent results. But it won't provide great results and can often provide very bad results.

2.) Pick drivers, build a box, place drivers in the box, measure the response with a mic setup, model the crossover based on the measurements. Taking the measurements requires a calibrate microphone and is painful. People that have been doing this a while struggle with this. But this method can produce AMAZINGLY GREAT results.

This question comes up over and over. People here mostly believe that the second method of design is the correct method and often not for beginners. The best way to start out is to build a proven design. Seriously, if you're not starting out and plan on building many speakers, build a proven design.

As for what proven design to go with, that is difficult. There has been some experimenting with waveguides and compression tweeter, but nothing is completed and proven yet. While the net seems to be full of people talking about horns with big woofers, there aren't proven designs with them. I don't think the performance lives up to the expectations.

I really think you would be happier with something like the NatP or the Lineup D44. This will likely have plenty of output.

If you really want to keep going down the path you're going, then the Parts Express forum will probably give you better help.

**ThomasW** · 05 July 2008, 18:20 Saturday

Originally posted by metal112524

What I'm looking for is for some modeling software, I've used winisd in the past for my sub enclosures but need something for full range. Also crossover design software if someone can point me in the right direction.

Most n00bs use this

jbagby

http://audio.claub.net/software/jbagby.html

And this

http://www.speakerworkshop.com/

Or this

Ivo Mateljan personal page

http://www.fesb.hr/~mateljan/arta/Also

You aren't going to get low cost Tractrix horns unless you own a wood lathe and are willing to turn your own

Beyond that it's fundamentally impossible to answer all you questions without writing a book. And speaking of books you might want to start this whole project by buying Ray Aldens "Speaker Building 201".

Designing a loudspeaker from scratch is not a trivial undertaking...

**Hdale85** · 05 July 2008, 18:35 Saturday

For some reason I doubt the drivers you have chosen would really work out to sound better then some of Klipsch offerings. I used to own a pair of RF62's and replaced them with the Lineup Maxx's. I also compared my RF62's to the Natalie P's and they were about equal although the Natalie P's had a little better bottom end that was tighter and more umph. Depending on the parts you use the Natalie P's can be done for pretty cheap.

P.S: If you aren't sure of the rules you should probably read them.

**metal112524** · 06 July 2008, 14:50 Sunday

I doubt the nat p's are what I'm looking for, also I don't think they would have the dynamic range of the rf82's. My dream diy speaker is something like the RF-83's. Again these will have to be a great HT speaker and need plenty of dynamics. And when there not being used for that they will be blasting Deftones, Rage against the machine, and metallica. I also need high sensitivity. Nat P's seem more like vienna acoustics and thats far from what i want for this project. Any suggestions are welcome.

**ThomasW** · 06 July 2008, 15:16 Sunday

The reality is your performance expectations aren't in line with the apparent budget....

I'm not sure how loud a pair of 8"s each having 5mm of Xmax and a sensitivity of 88dB are going to play. You can model that by putting the driver T/S parameters in WinISD or Unibox.

If you want LOUD you're better off going with bigger drivers that move more air, particularly if the plan is to match them with a horn loaded compression driver.

**Saurav** · 06 July 2008, 15:33 Sunday

What Thomas said. The NatP's use a pair of RS180s, which are 87.6 dB/W/m. The woofer you picked is 88 dB/W/m. I don't think that'll come close to matching the 105dB of your compression tweeter, so you'll have to pad that down a lot, and then you've lost all that sensitivity.

You should probably be looking at pro drivers. Eminence generally has a reputation for good value-for-money. As Ryan said, other forums might have people with more experience with the kind of design you're trying to make, and posted designs. Just be sure you select something designed for home use, and not PA/live sound reinforcement.

This site may be interesting: http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/

FWIW, I'm with you on the "not satisfied with the dynamics of conventional speakers" thing. But that usually means compromising on the fidelity/neutrality of the speakers, or spending a LOT more money to get high efficiency drivers that are the same quality as hi-fi drivers. Look at the B&C drivers on Parts Express to get an idea of the price range involved.

**metal112524** · 06 July 2008, 15:40 Sunday

The reason I picked out those drivers is they are the cheapest ones in that size on PE. The way I see it is I don't need to spend $500 in drivers and components on my first mediocre build. I don't necessarily need to go horn loaded just yet either, it was just an idea. Here are those drivers in winisd. Its the top line. This is in a monster sized ported enclosure. 4.325ft^3

**Saurav** · 06 July 2008, 16:59 Sunday

The way I see it is I don't need to spend $500 in drivers and components on my first mediocre build.

Agreed, but you said you wanted high efficiency. Like I said, take a look at Eminence. A long time ago my main speakers used to be Eminence 12" woofers with a compression tweeter. Not very refined at all, but they could rock, and got loud enough for me on my 8W tube amps. You'll have to look at your desired peak SPL levels and see how much 'woofage' you'll need to get there. Remember, efficiency only tells you how much power you'll need to get to a certain SPL, high efficiency does not guarantee high output capacity.

I agree with you on not spending a lot of money, but my advice would be to balance that against the likelihood of meeting your design goals. There's not much point spending any money on something if all the experts (and I'm certainly not one of them) tell you that it won't do what you're trying to do.

If you're not trying for something that can be driven off a low powered tube amp... I think Parts Express has a section on their website with completed projects. IIRC, some of those are meant for high output / dynamics. You may want to take a look around there and see if anything catches your eye.

**joecarrow** · 06 July 2008, 17:47 Sunday

For my first build, I used an Eminence Beta 8. It had an awful lot of things wrong with the design (I used no measurements and didn't understand baffle step, among other things), but it sure got loud!

**Hdale85** · 06 July 2008, 19:42 Sunday

If your just looking for a mediocre build you really should consider the Nat P's or something. What your describing is far beyond anything your going to be able to design at this point. There are other designs you could build as well of course the Nat P's are just an example. If your not willing to spend the big bucks your not going to get anything close to what your talking about. DIY does not really mean cheaper by any means. If your designing a high end speaker that will compete with multi thousand dollar designs then yeah you might save some bucks but when you calculate that into all the man hours put into test drivers to find what your looking for and then tweaking and designing the crossovers and then the extensive cabinetry work it may not be as big of a savings as you think. To most of us I'd say this is a hobby first and the sweet sounds is just a bonus

**ThomasW** · 07 July 2008, 13:32 Monday

If you're not fixated on the "I designed it" thing several of us researching various high output designs. The research hasn't yet lead to a thread, but that could change in a few weeks.

One low buck design under consideration would be to use the Selenium DD220Ti, it's only slightly more than the one you're looking at. And a pair of these ....

http://www.shredmuzic.com/product_p/813-018.htm

**Saurav** · 07 July 2008, 13:55 Monday

Does anyone have measurements of those Warrior drivers?

**ThomasW** · 07 July 2008, 14:34 Monday

Nope.

They're in Loveland CO so not too far away from Denver.
I'll give them a call and see if they have any specs available

**Undefinition** · 07 July 2008, 14:57 Monday

I'd recommend this design

http://www.wadsnet.com/%7Edtenney/dayton_8MTM.htm

This will go LOUD and have plenty of dynamics. It will have more than adequate bass, plus it uses two 8" woofers, just like you wanted (pretty decent woofers for the price, too). It's also a well-designed crossover.

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