Subwoofers and me...

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  • shame302
    Member
    • Apr 2008
    • 91

    Subwoofers and me...

    Now that the statements are just about there I need to start thinking more seriously about a sub. In the past i have always liked the range and sound of a sealed sub woofer. Now, i still don't know what kind of bass the statements will put out but i want a sub that will range well on its own. What I mean by that is it will easily be 50/50 music and movies. I listen to a lot of rock music myself but we have a pretty broad range of what would be played. Then there are movies. Who doesn't like earth shattering room shaking lows in a movie?

    Well here are the deal breakers. The statements are big and take a presence in the room. The sub would have to be a touch more conservative. Room placement is an issue unfortunately. Truthfully the room all this stuff is going into is a lousy room for it. its what i have though. If you can imagine a split level ranch with an open concept living room and kitchen, that's what I'm dealing with. The front entrance opens into a stairway that goes downstairs and/or upstairs into the open room area. The rooms used to be separated by a wall but I recently removed it and in the process figured i would raise the ceiling in the living room area. Now that's vaulted to about 10'. At the top of the stairs there is a knee wall that holds the railing up. (I'm limited to using in- walls here as my rear surrounds). I have the couch pretty much against that and the tv is at the other end of the room. I really should just post some pics but hopefully you get the idea. Anyway, what I'm getting at is the sub woofer will have to be either at the end of the couch on the outside wall, or behind the front left statement in the corner.

    As cool as a "sonosub" would be, from what i understand they aren't all that musical and well, they are kind of big and obtrusive. Jim sent me a drawing of a sealed cube sub that looks really decent. If its "nasty" enough it may just fit the bill. I have nothing to compare it too and no way of knowing without building it myself. It uses THIS driver and a 4.5 cubic foot cabinet. Something like 22"x22". Regardless of what sub i build i want to run THIS plate amp (the 500 watt). I don't really know why, it just does it for me.
    THIS BUILD really caught my eye. It looks nasty! As i understand it, the AV-15 is hard too come by as its not made anymore. Maybe if another driver would work well in its place? I really lust after a RL-P15 soundsplinter although its pricey. Maybe something with that.....Basically I'm fishing around for ideas. I would really like that AV-15. If i cant get that driver would the RL-P15 fit well in its place? If so would that plate amp serve it well? Would the Dayton build come close in comparison? It would be much gentler on the wallet.

    opinions? suggestions or comments? Thanks a bagillion guys....john
    Last edited by theSven; 10 July 2023, 13:43 Monday. Reason: Update url
    Psudo HTPC, Nuforce AVP 16, Emotiva XPA 5, Statements mains and center, Dayton in wall rears, Twin Tempest X 7CUFT sealed, and very cool and understanding wife!
  • ThomasW
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2000
    • 10933

    #2
    There's no difference in sound quality between a box sub or one made using sonotube...

    Potential issue with the RL-p15 is that TC-Sounds (builder of all the SS drivers) is out of business. I don't know if the new AudioPulse company will provide service.

    So....

    Get a Tempest-X from Kevin...

    IB subwoofer FAQ page


    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

    Comment

    • shame302
      Member
      • Apr 2008
      • 91

      #3
      well...looks too be a nice sub. If i was going to have a front firing sub id prefer something a little better looking. Thats probably why i was looking at the AV15 and RL-p15. If its a killer performer than i guess that could more than makes up for it. What type of box would be best for it?
      Psudo HTPC, Nuforce AVP 16, Emotiva XPA 5, Statements mains and center, Dayton in wall rears, Twin Tempest X 7CUFT sealed, and very cool and understanding wife!

      Comment

      • shame302
        Member
        • Apr 2008
        • 91

        #4
        This looks like a very nice sub actually. The biggest-ish box id be looking at would be around 20"Wx24"Tx32" long, ported, sealed, bandpass or whatever would perform best in a box of such a size. Would the Oaudio 500w plate amp be enough? Either down firing or front firing would work for me. Id rather be able too see the driver cause i think its cool being able to see it move. something would have to be in the front weather it be the river or a port or 2.....Thanks for pointing out this driver...

        Edit.
        well, im looking for a musically "punchy" sub and a sealed sub usually gets you that right? Sealed subs don't typically extend as low as a ported sub but how low can a typical sealed sub go? Obviously id like sub 20hrz performance for movies?
        Psudo HTPC, Nuforce AVP 16, Emotiva XPA 5, Statements mains and center, Dayton in wall rears, Twin Tempest X 7CUFT sealed, and very cool and understanding wife!

        Comment

        • Bent
          Super Senior Member
          • Sep 2003
          • 1570

          #5
          you can force a sealed sub to go just as low as any ported enclosure with added Eq via something like a DSP 1124p, bu you'll trade a bit of output.

          Comment

          • David_D
            Senior Member
            • Feb 2008
            • 197

            #6
            Shame302,
            Sent you a PM
            -David

            As we try and consider
            We receive all we venture to give

            Comment

            • ThomasW
              Moderator Emeritus
              • Aug 2000
              • 10933

              #7
              If you look at the Tempest-X application links (lower right side of the page linked to above) you can see the various alignments Kevin has posted.

              Yes the O-Audio amp will work with this driver.

              IB subwoofer FAQ page


              "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

              Comment

              • Hdale85
                Moderator Emeritus
                • Jan 2006
                • 16073

                #8
                Audio Pulse is the same company as TC sounds and as far as I know both companies are out of business.
                Last edited by Hdale85; 10 June 2008, 21:32 Tuesday.

                Comment

                • its_bacon12
                  Member
                  • May 2008
                  • 73

                  #9
                  TC Sounds recently sold off its patents. That doesn't sound like it's good for business for them.... plus at the prices they were charging under AudioPulse, how do they expect to sell anything?

                  Comment

                  • ThomasW
                    Moderator Emeritus
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 10933

                    #10
                    This isn't a thread about TC-Sounds or Audiopulse

                    IB subwoofer FAQ page


                    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                    Comment

                    • mayhem13
                      Member
                      • May 2008
                      • 62

                      #11
                      The Oaudio amp is a great amp and the controls are very flexible and come in handy. It tested very well over at AVS and did 449watts at 4ohms sine wave tested-pretty impressive and didn't blow a fuse. The 500 watts won't be enough for an RLP sealed and like other posts mentioned, no support and may not even be available. The Dayton RS390HF and the SDX-15 are both excellent choices. A lot of people are having good success with the SDX and the Dayton is a real value at the price. Looks like you've got about 6 cuft to work with so ported is probobly the way to go here.

                      Comment

                      • shame302
                        Member
                        • Apr 2008
                        • 91

                        #12
                        I'm not all that picky about the driver if it performs well. I don't want it too look "budget" either though.
                        Psudo HTPC, Nuforce AVP 16, Emotiva XPA 5, Statements mains and center, Dayton in wall rears, Twin Tempest X 7CUFT sealed, and very cool and understanding wife!

                        Comment

                        • shame302
                          Member
                          • Apr 2008
                          • 91

                          #13
                          Thanks!
                          So it would seem as though i would be looking at the tempest-x in either the 7'sealed or the 8.5 ported version. Both would come close to my size requirements, as well as work with the amp i chose. The sealed sounds more like a music sub than the ported but they don't really comment on how musical the ported sub is. Im not great at deciphering the graphs but the sealed one looks like it has great range, both going very low and loud. It also sounds like id be much less likely to damage it. In regards to the fill. 100% i assume means fill the box right up with poly fill? What exactly is F3? Im leaning toward this build.
                          Psudo HTPC, Nuforce AVP 16, Emotiva XPA 5, Statements mains and center, Dayton in wall rears, Twin Tempest X 7CUFT sealed, and very cool and understanding wife!

                          Comment

                          • mayhem13
                            Member
                            • May 2008
                            • 62

                            #14
                            If you plan on sealed (I can only hope) then you don't need such a large enclosure. Stuffing a sealed box will increase the volume seen by the driver but there are limits. F3 is the frequency where the system rolls of 3 db from it's peak and fB is the tuning frequency of a system. You need to decide on the type of alignment first and i think you already answered that in your first post anyway-a touch more conservative? I'd go with 2 seperate sealed subs with 15" drivers. Check ******************************

                            Text removed by moderator for violation of forum rules
                            Last edited by ThomasW; 12 June 2008, 00:13 Thursday.

                            Comment

                            • ---k---
                              Ultra Senior Member
                              • Nov 2005
                              • 5204

                              #15
                              If you go sealed, the bigger is still better. Shoot for a Q=0.5 - 0.55 if possible. You can very effectively boost the low end with a shelf filter using the $300 Behringer DEQ. ( I own one) This will give you EQ similar to a LT. The less expensive Behringer FBQ and BFD can also be used to boost the low end, but not as effectively.

                              I'm sure there are discussions of this amongst the various old build threads.
                              Last edited by ThomasW; 12 June 2008, 00:11 Thursday.
                              - Ryan

                              CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                              CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                              CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                              Comment

                              • shame302
                                Member
                                • Apr 2008
                                • 91

                                #16
                                If you plan on sealed (I can only hope)
                                Why So?

                                whats a Q?

                                i ordered the tempest x. ordered the bash 500 as well. basically the X looks like a "better" version of the dayton to me and it seems well liked. im borrowing an 8" paradigm sub right now and it actually does well imo. certainly a 15" sub will do better in just about any configuration.....looking at the graphs it would have much more output volume wise ported but im thinking sealed will go plenty low and be loud enough. i feel much more like im kind of winging this one as i guess im not really following a schematic of any sort.
                                Psudo HTPC, Nuforce AVP 16, Emotiva XPA 5, Statements mains and center, Dayton in wall rears, Twin Tempest X 7CUFT sealed, and very cool and understanding wife!

                                Comment

                                • flamethrower1
                                  Senior Member
                                  • May 2008
                                  • 392

                                  #17
                                  subwoofer

                                  Hey, Shame
                                  I just purchased the same components, what enclosure did you decide to build?

                                  Comment

                                  • ---k---
                                    Ultra Senior Member
                                    • Nov 2005
                                    • 5204

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by shame302
                                    i feel much more like im kind of winging this one as i guess im not really following a schematic of any sort.
                                    Have you read the application notes?
                                    diycable.com - Contact us for any business inquiries
                                    - Ryan

                                    CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                    CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                    CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                    Comment

                                    • shame302
                                      Member
                                      • Apr 2008
                                      • 91

                                      #19
                                      yep. just not sure on 7 cubic foot sealed or eight and a half ported. im thinking sealed.
                                      Psudo HTPC, Nuforce AVP 16, Emotiva XPA 5, Statements mains and center, Dayton in wall rears, Twin Tempest X 7CUFT sealed, and very cool and understanding wife!

                                      Comment

                                      • shame302
                                        Member
                                        • Apr 2008
                                        • 91

                                        #20
                                        well the driver and amp are here. i guess i have to make some decisions now. i really don't want to spend another 300 on a DEQ (i assume this is a digital eq?). i don't know what Q is so in regards to targeting a Q of .5, what does that mean and how is it achieved?

                                        maybe a ported enclosure would be better if theres no need to eq it? a side from building a well braced box with the correct internal volume and sticking a correct length/ dia. port, what more is there to it?

                                        other than volume as well as fitting the driver and the port tube, does it matter what the dimensions of the box are? would fiberglass insulation would work as well as poly fill?

                                        where can i go to learn about this without asking a million dumb questions and trolling through a ton of forum threads?
                                        Psudo HTPC, Nuforce AVP 16, Emotiva XPA 5, Statements mains and center, Dayton in wall rears, Twin Tempest X 7CUFT sealed, and very cool and understanding wife!

                                        Comment

                                        • ThomasW
                                          Moderator Emeritus
                                          • Aug 2000
                                          • 10933

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by shame302
                                          well the driver and amp are here. i guess i have to make some decisions now. i really don't want to spend another 300 on a DEQ (i assume this is a digital eq?). i don't know what Q is so in regards to targeting a Q of .5, what does that mean and how is it achieved?
                                          If you use one of the box modeling programs like WinISD or Unibox you'll see what Q is all about.

                                          If you don't want to bother learning about box designs go with one of the published box designs
                                          a ported enclosure would be better if theres no need to eq it?
                                          A ported box gives more out out at the tuning frequency aka (Fb) other than that it's performance isn't much different than a sealed box.

                                          IMO all subs need EQ, that's a function of customizing the sub to the room.
                                          side from building a well braced box with the correct internal volume and sticking a correct length/ dia. port, what more is there to it?
                                          That's close
                                          than volume as well as fitting the driver and the port tube, does it matter what the dimensions of the box are? would fiberglass insulation would work as well as poly fill?

                                          where can i go to learn about this without asking a million dumb questions and trolling through a ton of forum threads?
                                          Here's a thought, use the forum's search function. Virtually any question you can think up has been asked and answered numerous times.

                                          IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                          "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                          Comment

                                          • shame302
                                            Member
                                            • Apr 2008
                                            • 91

                                            #22
                                            So...
                                            i have here a Tempest X and 7 CUFT (34"L X 21"H X 17"W INTERNALLY. the box is actually 3" larger all around) sealed enclosure powered by a bash 500. i built the box out of 3/4 mdf but double layered the whole thing. well, not realy. i ran out of stock so one side is single for the time being. i dont think it matters all that much realy. 1/3 the way in from each end i installed window braces that run virtically. being the fancy schmancy pants i am i recessed the driver. i ran the wires from the amp to one of the VCs and then i ran a jumper wire from VC to VC. its packed (but not tightly) with fiberglass insulation 100%.

                                            pics...

                                            Images not available

                                            so anyway....it sonded great for awhile and then after about a months use with music and movies etc it just kind of lost some oomph and for some reason, the driver maxes out against its suspention with low bass when it never did that before. nothing at all had changed, not the gains or any other setting on the amp or in my pre what so ever. a friend of mine ran some sweeps with it before it was acting up that were rather low (didnt think the electronics would even process them that low). the sweeps were run with Room EQ Wizard. i admit that i need a lesson on how to use this software properly as a tool. anyway, the sweeps were run at relitivaly low volume but were run from 0 hrz up too about 200hrz. there was speaker move ment (very slow at first) up untill about say 10 hrz then she picked up pace. somewhere between 10 and 20 it maxed out and from there seemed normal. i dont have the plots (sorry). that was the only time i ever heard or saw it do that before and called it quits. shortly after that i wanted to watch Gothica. there is a "heartbeat like" pulse at the opening credits that maxed my sub right out against its suspension. never experianced this before in a movie but never watched this movie on my setup either. ive watched others though, ind its certainly done it again. i cant watch movies as loudly (way above refferance leval) anymore with the sub at its "normal" calibrated setting. its never bottomed out against its VC. it sounds great with musig, its just the very low, loud agressive bass that does this. the amp seems to be working as it should so im confused. the leads are fine, the driver physically looks and feels fine. what could be going wrong?

                                            before this happned, i was considering building a twin to this sub. if i did so, can i expect a drastic change? i have the current sub behind my couch by a knee wall and id like to build another to, you know, fill in the space behind the other side of the couch. likely it would be facing the other sub. both would be front fireing and would be about 16" ayay from each other. would i be commiting a DIY audiophile sin? i couls make another pair of boxes and make the drivers front fireing, but if i dont have too, id rather build one.
                                            Last edited by theSven; 10 July 2023, 13:35 Monday. Reason: Remove broken image links
                                            Psudo HTPC, Nuforce AVP 16, Emotiva XPA 5, Statements mains and center, Dayton in wall rears, Twin Tempest X 7CUFT sealed, and very cool and understanding wife!

                                            Comment

                                            • fbov
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Jun 2008
                                              • 479

                                              #23
                                              John,
                                              I bought a Tempest X and Oaudio 500 amp about a month after you did, for a 3 cu ft sealed box, and I've seen no changes in performance since the initial break-in. Your description leads me to ask if you've checked inside the box to verify that both coils are still connected. That would explain the loss of oomph, but not the cone travel. I have to say, I never want this thing pushing max cone excursion in my 2600 cu ft room - the room rattles enough already!

                                              Have fun,
                                              Frank

                                              Comment

                                              • shame302
                                                Member
                                                • Apr 2008
                                                • 91

                                                #24
                                                yeah, i have to take it appart and give it a good look see. its not so much the loss of oomph as its maxing out easier, or sooner. im in no way un happy with the driver, its just that "somethings up".
                                                Psudo HTPC, Nuforce AVP 16, Emotiva XPA 5, Statements mains and center, Dayton in wall rears, Twin Tempest X 7CUFT sealed, and very cool and understanding wife!

                                                Comment

                                                • ---k---
                                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                                  • Nov 2005
                                                  • 5204

                                                  #25
                                                  Have you contacted Kevin and asked him about it? He is very accessible. I would talk to him first.
                                                  - Ryan

                                                  CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                                  CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                                  CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                                  Comment

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