Official Dayton DIY Announcement

[mikev@PE]

Dayton Audio and Parts Express would like to officially invite all of you to visit www.daytondiy.com and register for the upcoming Dayton, Ohio DIY event. Please see the website for all details and regular updates.

[---k---]

Its July 12, 2008

[Hdale85]

If anyone from Pittsburgh happens to be going I may want to tag along :B

[CupCak3]

oooh this won't be a bad drive for me. Depending on how the rest of my build goes, I may enter a build or two (with designer approval of course...)

[IllNastyImpreza]

o man I would love to check out all the DIY builds !

than maybee I can finaly decide what the hell I want to build !

[Paul Ebert]

I would very much like to go to this. I'd be driving from central NY (Syracuse) and I'm wondering if anyone between there (or thereabouts) and Dayton would be interested in going with me to share gas expenses. I would probably leave Friday afternoon and return on Sunday.

[EdL]

I plan to drive up from Central KY on Friday and return Saturday evening.

[JJones]

Well, it was fun, but several of us thought we could barely hear the speakers.

It was like going to hear an opera singer, but, she only whispered instead of singing.

Was that what some people would call "moderate listening levels"?!? Those were nowhere near the level of, say, if you had an actual acoustic (un-amplified) instrument playing in the room, and FAR FAR lower than the volume of an opera singer singing normally.

I'm not saying that you always have to use "concert level" volumes for speaker tests/comparisons, but, shouldn't those kind of levels at least be a part of the tests?

And, maybe, for the rest of the listening, at least just loud enough for those of us in the middle/back of the room to be able to hear the speakers clearly? I wasn't there long and I missed the beginning, or I might have said something. I did hear murmurings from the crowd like "turn it up" etc...

[dlneubec]

I would agree that a bit higher levels would have been nicer, especially for the audience. However, the judges were a good 10'-12' closer than most of the audience, so to them it was considerably louder. Also, they had to listen to almost 40 pairs of speakers and I'm sure wanted to give those at the end a fair evaluation as well.

I can tell you from the Iowa event last year, that after about 20 pairs at even moderate levels in a large room, you really start to feel the fatigue and it becomes harder and harder to stay objective and focused for each speaker. I know from talking to the judges that they were worn out by the end, even at the levels they used.

[AJINFLA]

It was a fun event, my hat's off to PE for graciously hosting. Special thanks to Mike and Rich. Great guys. Good taste in beers too :W (post show). I might drive a semi up next time, with all the cool stuff they had at the tent sale :E. I was like a kid in a candy shop. I needed none of it, but you know...
That said, there was no way for me, personally, to draw conclusions on audio quality under such conditions. The room was far from acoustically sized as a living room. The levels were extremely low..and varied. It was set by ear (due to time constraints) and if the contestant utilized their own music track (one substitution was allowed), it would be the first selection, which always resulted in the playback level being higher. I would estimate the playback level in the low 80's (db peak), such that 3-4" fullrange driver speakers, that would fit in the palm of the hand, were played at the same level as my 4' tall 120db+ capable speakers.
The best I could tell were the obvious colorations from boxes and resonating ports/horns and occasionally driver coloration/breakup. The first of the 3 standard music tracks was a Sheffield drum kit cut. How nice it would have been to see which loudspeaker(s) sounded like a drum kit and not loudspeakers. Ditto for the classical piece (which if I never hear again...will be fine ).
I will suggest for next year that if someone local is kind enough to host, that those who would like to demonstrate whether their loudspeakers can realistically pass for actual live instruments/performances can do so. Perhaps prior to or after the main show. Just a thought.

Dan - congrats on the wins. Your speakers speakers are gorgeous in the flesh (the big ones).

It was a heck of a drive, but see ya all next year :B

cheers,

AJ

p.s. I'll try to post afew pics tomorrow.

[dlneubec]

Hi AJ,

It was a pleasure to meet you.

I hear you on the volume issue. Virutally everyone but the judges were asking for it to be louder. It would have been fun to have had the option to crank a few of them up. Maybe they could do something like 2 pieces at the standard judging volume and one good quality cut, like one of the Sheffield Labs cuts (that's who all of my selections were from), could be cranked up to represent at least a little closer to live. Some speakers just don't begin to sing until about 90db or so and they never got close to that on Saturday. I'm sorry to say that I missed your speakers audition because I couldn't wait any longer for a bathroom break. They were flying through them at that time!

BTW, did that guy from "BrandX" follow you home or were you able to ditch him along the way. :W

See you next year. I plan to build something that really wants to be cranked up.High Sensitivity Design

It might be just one pair this time around, though I'm a little intrigued with the idea of also doing a 3way version of my Dou's. A lot of people liked the Duo's and a couple of the judges actually thought the Duo-T had won the under $200 open category, but it was actually the SoundRounds. The Duo-T only has $86 worth of drivers in them.

[Hdale85]

Commercial speaker companies go to these events? Hmm might have to start patenting designs we make here

[JJones]

I did hear Dan's speakers, and, they were the loudest that I heard because he had active bass and it was turned up louder than the PE guy was turning up any of the other speakers (at least, of the limited selection I heard for a couple hours in the early afternoon). So, whether or not Dan's speakers were the best (and I'm not saying they weren't) I think it would be a safe guess that they won because of the extra volume on the low end from the active bass. Time and time again, it's been shown that quantity beats quality (unless there's a glaring deficiency?). I did like Dan's speakers, BTW. Very nice finish too.

If I had been sitting in a Judge's seat, I might have been able to evaluate more.

I think something most of us would like even more than that type of judged event would be: getting together a few pairs of speakers and listening at someone's house, listen to full tracks, or maybe even full albums (if we had some we all liked well enough), and maybe drinking a couple beers while listening, not just after.

Was there any "free listening time" where people could stand around and listen to full tracks at louder volumes? Maybe we should have done that at lunch time? Next year I'm gonna have to get to the tent sale early so I don't miss the budge category!

[AJINFLA]

Sorry for the crappy pic quality

Images not available

[Saurav]

Wow, there are women who are interested in DIY Audio? Or were they the organizers?

Thanks for the photos. Some questions:

* The scooped rear-horn looking cabs with no drivers - was that the Jordan + tweeter that I saw mentioned on the PE forum thread?

* What's the speaker in the back left in images 3-5 ... looks like a large driver on an open baffle on top, with a cabinet below? Is that a coax driver?

* What's the speaker that looked like a cello with a swimsuit?

[---k---]

I wasn't at Dayton, but I've seen the complaints about the volume level over on PE's forum. I'm guessing if it had been higher, it would have worn the judges ears out. I was sitting in the 3rd or 4th row at Iowa. I know my ears were fried well before it was over. It is disappointing, because people are raving about Paul's Catalena's and honestly my ears were so fried by the time they came up, I don't remember them as being anything special. I missed out.

[EdL]

From Saurav:

"* The scooped rear-horn looking cabs with no drivers - was that the Jordan + tweeter that I saw mentioned on the PE forum thread?"

You may be referring to my Curvy Changs. I use the Pioneer B20 and Dayton neo-tweet with a 2 uF cap.

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=392&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1215832925

They were completed the day of the event.

[AJINFLA]

BTW, did that guy from "BrandX" follow you home or were you able to ditch him along the way. :W
See you next year. I plan to build something that really wants to be cranked up.High Sensitivity Design

Good meeting you too Dan. Les Hudson is definitely an entertaining character. I wish him well with the BrandX products. Not exactly my cup of tea.
I think all the speakers needed to be cranked up, not just my 96db models. Things like compression, too low or sloppily crossed tweets, cabinet buzzing and diffraction (per Geddes) are all level dependent.
If we are unable to find anyone willing to host, perhaps I will look into renting a house for the weekend next year (if possible) for some pre/post show activities.

Wow, there are women who are interested in DIY Audio? Or were they the organizers?

Thanks for the photos. Some questions:

* The scooped rear-horn looking cabs with no drivers - was that the Jordan + tweeter that I saw mentioned on the PE forum thread?

* What's the speaker in the back left in images 3-5 ... looks like a large driver on an open baffle on top, with a cabinet below? Is that a coax driver?

* What's the speaker that looked like a cello with a swimsuit?

Simmer down Saurav, Amy was one of the organizers. Although she is infatuated with grown men talking about passive cones and how to name loudspeaker boxes :W
Looks like Ed answered your first question and if you have read any of my posting here you may have guessed who would have shown up with a coaxial OB.
The Cello speaker was brought by Mr. Munekata Maekawa from Japan. He brought plans of the speaker, including circuit schematic. Two way with (2) Dayton 6.5's, one mounted on the rear of the cabinet in bipolar fashion. Monopole horn tweeter. The cabinets were made by hand and not converted Cellos as I had first thought. They were to be sold by PE and the proceeds donated to a 911 charity (I very nice gesture IMHO). Munekata is a very nice guy (and fun to hang out with as a few of us discovered after the show )

Overall, great show, very gracious hosts in PE and top notch judges in Jerry, Joe, Roy, John and Darren. Fun talking to them all!

cheers,

AJ

[JJones]

...The Cello speaker was brought by Mr. Munekata Maekawa from Japan. He brought plans of the speaker, including circuit schematic. Two way with (2) Dayton 6.5's, one mounted on the rear of the cabinet in bipolar fashion. Monopole horn tweeter....

Didn't the sheet say 295-300? That would be the Dayton DC130AS-8 5-1/4" Classic Shielded Woofer - a much better sounding driver than the 6.5" one...

[Saurav]

Thanks. So that's the BMS coax with Rhythmic sub below? I've been trying to correlate the pictures with the posts on the PE forum.

Looks like there was quite an interesting variety of design approaches. Would have been a fun event to attend.

[DS-21]

Thanks for the shots, AJ! Looks like there were some great-looking cabinets to be seen.

So Les is starting a new speaker company, huh? Interesting. His handwork has always been top notch. I wish he still lived in Atlanta so I could commission my stuff from him. I'm still using some cabs I bought from him for my surrounds. (Tannoy 2046 drivers in sealed hexagonal enclosures.) Wish I had gotten to hear his big Acapella/Avantgarde style horns before he moved north. You might've liked them; I understand he was running them dipole, and I think he tried the Tannoy NFM8 II driver I sent him when he was doing my nearfield system center channel cabinet in it once. That would be fun, assuming one has the space for a deep, meter-diameter waveguide.

[dlneubec]

Here are some more pics posted on another forum.
DIYdayton pics

[Dennis H]

Hey AJ, are you using a passive crossover on that BMS 12" coax? I'd very much like to see what that looks like as that's a very interesting driver to me.

[Jim Holtz]

Hey Jed!

The Dayton scores have been posted for all of the entries. Your speakers had the highest rated sound quality by the "celebrity judges. Darren's scores are the ones that brought you down a bit among the other judges and cost you 1st place. Everyone else seemed to really like the Tombstones. I prefer anonymous judging personally.

DIY events are tough, particularly if the room is working against you. I really was surprised PE only had 3 minutes of test tracks. That isn't enough to form much more than an initial impression in my opinion. However, I've been a proponent of DIY events and continue to be one. It's the only way I know to hear different drivers and different designs. It does give a sense of the sound quality possible. Crossover skills of the designer impact that tremendously of course.

Very good job! :T

Jim

[ThomasW]

Dan's speakers won in two categories at DIY Dayton!

Congrats Dan.... :T

[dlneubec]

Dan's speakers won in two categories at DIY Dayton!

Congrats Dan.... :T

Thanks Thomas! It is gratifying to know that some folks think you are doing something right.

Let me take the opportunity to brag a little. I had two first places, for the SoundRounds in the under $200 category (drivers only included in cost) and in the Dayton category for the HOSS. I also had a 2nd place for the Duo-T to my SoundRounds in the under $200 group, and a third place in the over $200 group for the Duo-S, which incidentally had driver costs at around 1/4 and 1/2 of those in the second and first place winners in that group (second was Jed with his very nice Tombstones and first was Paul Kittingers excellent canTiLenas).

[Paul K.]

Jim, you're onto something!

The other pair of speakers I entered at Dayton were the cenTiLanas in the Dayton-driver category, finishing third. Darren only gave them a 6 on bass response which pulled my score down and I'd sure like to not count it. But, wait, Darren gave them a 10 on soundstage/imaging, and I'd like to keep that score! Wouldn't it be really neat if all the participants at the PE event would have been allowed to edit the scores from all the judges, selectively throwing out low scores and keep only high scores. But, that's not how the event's judging and scoring was set up and I feel your comments do disservice to PE, the participants, the judges in general and especially Darren. That said, I thought Jed's Tombstones sounded pretty darned good and looked even better. They were judged before my canTiLenas and I was quite sure they would score high and give the canTiLenas tough competition. Of course I'm really pleased that the canTiLenas won.

Actually, I was far less ear-weary at the end of the day expressly because there were only those three 1-minute tracks, with speakers played at lower levels than we usually hear at these events. The room did seem to cause substantially boomy bass on a few speakers (remember what the last Iowa venue did to your Mini Statements?), but affected most other speakers much less or not at all, IMO.

Note, this is my very first post on this forum and I sure hope it's not my last!
Paul

The Dayton scores have been posted for all of the entries. Your speakers had the highest rated sound quality by the "celebrity judges. Darren's scores are the ones that brought you down a bit among the other judges and cost you 1st place. Everyone else seemed to really like the Tombstones. I prefer anonymous judging personally.

DIY events are tough, particularly if the room is working against you. I really was surprised PE only had 3 minutes of test tracks. That isn't enough to form much more than an initial impression in my opinion. However, I've been a proponent of DIY events and continue to be one. It's the only way I know to hear different drivers and different designs. It does give a sense of the sound quality possible. Crossover skills of the designer impact that tremendously of course.

Very good job! :T

Jim

[Hdale85]

I've heard Darren was a stickler Someone said he was sitting on the floor durring listening sessions.

[Jim Holtz]

The other pair of speakers I entered at Dayton were the cenTiLanas in the Dayton-driver category, finishing third. Darren only gave them a 6 on bass response which pulled my score down and I'd sure like to not count it. But, wait, Darren gave them a 10 on soundstage/imaging, and I'd like to keep that score! Wouldn't it be really neat if all the participants at the PE event would have been allowed to edit the scores from all the judges, selectively throwing out low scores and keep only high scores. But, that's not how the event's judging and scoring was set up and I feel your comments do disservice to PE, the participants, the judges in general and especially Darren. That said, I thought Jed's Tombstones sounded pretty darned good and looked even better. They were judged before my canTiLenas and I was quite sure they would score high and give the canTiLenas tough competition. Of course I'm really pleased that the canTiLenas won.

Actually, I was far less ear-weary at the end of the day expressly because there were only those three 1-minute tracks, with speakers played at lower levels than we usually hear at these events. The room did seem to cause substantially boomy bass on a few speakers (remember what the last Iowa venue did to your Mini Statements?), but affected most other speakers much less or not at all, IMO.

Note, this is my very first post on this forum and I sure hope it's not my last!
Paul

Hi Paul,

Welcome to the HT GUide forum and congratulations on your win at Dayton.

Now, calm down. You completely misinterpreted my comments which were not meant to denigrate PE or your speakers. You should be proud of them because they are excellent. Rick does great crossover design and I've been one of his biggest supporters. I consider Rick my friend. Both Rick and Dennis Murphy stayed at my house in 2004 when I hosted the Iowa DIY event the first time. Both have created custom designs for me and I consider them both to be my friends.

My comments were meant to compliment Jed on his accomplishment of scoring so highly in his first DIY contest and to note that the celebrity judges rated his speaker very highly. That took nothing away from PE or your entry. They also rated your entry very highly.

Since PE decided to post the scores from each judge and identify them, I won't be the last to comment about it, I'm sure. I've known Darren since 2001 when he drove to Iowa and slept in his car to attend the Iowa DIY event. I simply noted that Darren's scoring was quite different from the other judges. Different strokes for different folks. When you have 6 judges instead of 30 the impact of one persons scoring is much greater.

Finally, since I've hosted the Iowa DIY event twice, I know how much work it is and how you can never please everyone with your decisions. I applaud PE for getting involved in DIY events again. Darren was the driving force behind them at PE. However, I like everyone else, have my own opinion of how the event was handled. You may not like my comments or thoughts but they are mine just as you have yours.

Best regards,

Jim

[Paul K.]

Okay, Jim, fair enough...

I didn't take anything you said in your post to Jed to be critical of my speakers and I assumed your primary intent was to pat Jed on the back for his Tombstones. Perhaps I read between the lines inappropriately but I did feel Darren was insulted even with the smiley face you dropped in.

You're absolutely correct; it takes a lot of work to organize these events and no matter what you do, not everyone will be satisfied.

I'm looking forward to Iowa in October and meeting up with you again.

[Dennis H]

One thing I noticed is only 60% of the score is how they sound. Certainly originality and craftsmanship deserve recognition but an excellent design might score lower overall if the builder brought unfinished boxes with bondo smeared all over them. It's not a problem as long as people make the effort to look at all the numbers and that's probably why PE published them all.

[AJINFLA]

One thing I noticed is only 60% of the score is how they sound. Certainly originality and craftsmanship deserve recognition but an excellent design might score lower overall if the builder brought unfinished boxes with bondo smeared all over them. It's not a problem as long as people make the effort to look at all the numbers and that's probably why PE published them all.

Hey! That's wood filler :W . I owe you a PM, just been super busy at work.
What should be noted from the scores is low variation from median. Also note where the judges were sitting in my pic.
Unsurprisingly, John Murphy, who was sitting closest to middle, had consistent soundstaging scores. Listening to stereophonic material. What a shocker :B .
I found it a great, fun experience...and thanks again to PE and especially the judges. However, I myself would/could draw absolutely no conclusions about loudspeaker sound quality. Put the very same speakers in an acoustically smaller space (where they would normally be), sit directly between them and turn the volume up past 80db....impressions might change. Or maybe not

cheers,

AJ

[Jim Holtz]

I didn't take anything you said in your post to Jed to be critical of my speakers and I assumed your primary intent was to pat Jed on the back for his Tombstones. Perhaps I read between the lines inappropriately but I did feel Darren was insulted even with the smiley face you dropped in.

You're absolutely correct; it takes a lot of work to organize these events and no matter what you do, not everyone will be satisfied.

I'm looking forward to Iowa in October and meeting up with you again.

Hi Paul,

I apologize if I misunderstood your post. You are correct. I wanted to give Jed a pat on the back for his efforts. He slaved over the Tombstones and invested a lot of money developing them. Plus, he's not been to or competed in a DIY event before. It can be a bit intimidating. It was definitely meant to compliment him.

I didn't mean to beat up on Darren at all. It looks like he was the toughest judge there. Like I said, different strokes for different folks. That said, I could very well have agreed with him had I been there, but I wasn't, so it was just an observation rather than an attack on his scoring.

I'm looking forward to the Iowa event also and a chance to see everyone again. The Monitor Statements are still sitting in my workshop untouched since bringing them home from Curt's house. I've just had too many things going on this summer. They are on my to do list for this week if everything goes right.

See you at the Iowa event! BTW, please continue to post. I know this isn't your favorite format but it does grow on you. Lots of good folks with a lot of info to share hang out here.

Best regards,

Jim

[AJINFLA]

Thanks for the shots, AJ! Looks like there were some great-looking cabinets to be seen.
So Les is starting a new speaker company, huh? Interesting. .

Umm, no, not exactly. I believe he works for this BrandX, which appears to be a subsidiary of Pyle.

His handwork has always been top notch. I wish he still lived in Atlanta so I could commission my stuff from him. I'm still using some cabs I bought from him for my surrounds. (Tannoy 2046 drivers in sealed hexagonal enclosures.) Wish I had gotten to hear his big Acapella/Avantgarde style horns before he moved north. You might've liked them; I understand he was running them dipole, and I think he tried the Tannoy NFM8 II driver I sent him when he was doing my nearfield system center channel cabinet in it once. That would be fun, assuming one has the space for a deep, meter-diameter waveguide.

His craftsmanship seemed impeccable, but the styling was, errr, not exactly my cup o tea. Different stokes for different folks I suppose.
Of note, some of the judges scores, zeroes were a bit harsh IMHO. Although some designs were, uhh, less than optimal, I would never give someone who had made the effort to be there a zero. A two or three maybe.
Anyway, enough on the scoring. Had fun and that's really all it should be about.

It can be a bit intimidating. It was definitely meant to compliment him.

A bit intimidating? Stepping into the ring with Fedor Emelianenko would be a bit intimidating. A DIY event? We were listening to music on each others stereo loudspeakers fer chrissakes :roll:

cheers,

AJ

[Hdale85]

I hope I can make this event next year and possibly enter my own design