Building the Mini Statements

[Dave Pellegrene]

This is my first attempt at building speakers. I have really enjoyed this so far. Here is a link to the pics I have taken..

http://picasaweb.google.com/pelegrn

I would appreciate any feed back.
Thanks Dave

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Dave,

Beautiful work! :T

Thanks for posting your build pictures. They show the inside construction better than any I've seen. That helps!

Jim

[zjason]

Ditto on the beautiful work for those cabinets!

Can't wait to see the fully finished product with drivers installed.

[mikela]

Hi Dave,

Learned alot just looking at your pics. Should help me on my Statment build.

Thanks,

Mike

[JonW]

Dave,

Super workmanship. :T I always like seeing something a little creative, like the curves you added to the sides. Nice how it matches up with the centers.

[Dave Pellegrene]

Thanks for the positive feed back.
No problem posting the pics Jim. I am glad to be building such a well design set of speakers. Hopefully I will get the crossovers done right.
The extra curves were inspired by how I am going to get the set up I want into the living room without the wife going nuts, so I am trying to make them blend with the decor. I figure the white will make them look smaller. She seems OK with the minis, but she hasn't seen the center channel yet. Yikes!

[phisch]

Those look great. Is that cherry veneer that you used?

[Dave Pellegrene]

Mikela if your not sure how to do something feel free to contact me. I could probably give you some tips.

Yes that is cherry veneer with a provincial stain on it.

[Dave Pellegrene]

help with crossover layout.

I was wondering if someone might have the time to look over my crossovers. This is my first attempt at building them. On the woofer board I have to change the inductors so they are T shaped. On the mid board I have a 68 and 12 cap wired in series to make an 80cap and was told they should be parallel. Any advice would be appreciated.
I dont now how to post a pic on here so here is a link to the crossover.

http://picasaweb.google.com/pelegrn/CrossoverForMiniStatements

Link to crossover drawings

http://www.geocities.com/cc00541/MiniStatements.html

Thanks Dave

[Dave Pellegrene]

What subs to build

Ordered the NeoCd 3's yesterday from Madisound. They know have them in stock again and said they shouldn't run out. So now I can finish my Minni's.
To the question I had. I want to start building subs and was looking for advice on what will go with the Minni's. I currently have a Dayton 240W plate amp and I built a 1cu. ft. box out of 1" MDF. I was going to buy a 10" titanic III. I stopped that project when I started my Minni's because I wasn't sure if I was building the right sub for my needs. My room size is 25' x 27' with a vaulted ceiling. I would appreciate any help.
Thanks Dave

[Hdale85]

Don't get the Titanic III, get an RSS 12" or 15" if your looking for a good budget woofer. You'll probably need a bigger enclosure unless its going to be sealed then it might work out ok. Both are very nice subs though.

[engr_dave]

Very nice speaker build! :T I like the painted side/top panels, although I would have probably done them in gloss black - but that's just me.

That's a large room and some nice main/center speakers. I think you'll be disappointed with a single 10" sub. Just not enough displacement for deep bass at realistic levels. Remember Hoffman's Iron Law: Small, efficient, or good extension... pick any two. You could do a single 15" in 1 cu ft sealed, but you'll need a Linkwitz transform circuit and a LOT more power. Or you could do a single high-efficiency 15" or 18" in a large box (think >6 cu ft) with 240 watts.

For my 14' x 22' theater, I'm running four Dayton Reference 15s (RSS390HO) in 7 cuft total driven by 2400 watts (Crown K2) - and that doesn't include the subs built into the rear seating platform. Bass quality is excellent and output capability is "adequate". :W

[Curt C]

I was wondering if someone might have the time to look over my crossovers. This is my first attempt at building them. On the woofer board I have to change the inductors so they are T shaped. On the mid board I have a 68 and 12 cap wired in series to make an 80cap and was told they should be parallel. Any advice would be appreciated.
I dont now how to post a pic on here so here is a link to the crossover.

http://picasaweb.google.com/pelegrn/CrossoverForMiniStatements

Link to crossover drawings

http://www.geocities.com/cc00541/MiniStatements.html

Thanks Dave

Near as I can tell, it looks fine Dave. Mount the boards so that the inductors are a few inches apart from each other. Remember the mid and tweeter are connected with reverse polarity on this design.

C

[Dave Pellegrene]

Don't get the Titanic III, get an RSS 12" or 15" if your looking for a good budget woofer. You'll probably need a bigger enclosure unless its going to be sealed then it might work out ok. Both are very nice subs though.

You are the second person that told me not to get the titanic and go for the rss. Since I have been studying speaker building for the last few months I am starting to like the ported cabinets better. But, this is in my living room and I need spouse approval so I have to be careful.
Thanks for the input
Dave

[Dave Pellegrene]

Very nice speaker build! :T I like the painted side/top panels, although I would have probably done them in gloss black - but that's just me.

That's a large room and some nice main/center speakers. I think you'll be disappointed with a single 10" sub. Just not enough displacement for deep bass at realistic levels. Remember Hoffman's Iron Law: Small, efficient, or good extension... pick any two. You could do a single 15" in 1 cu ft sealed, but you'll need a Linkwitz transform circuit and a LOT more power. Or you could do a single high-efficiency 15" or 18" in a large box (think >6 cu ft) with 240 watts.

For my 14' x 22' theater, I'm running four Dayton Reference 15s (RSS390HO) in 7 cuft total driven by 2400 watts (Crown K2) - and that doesn't include the subs built into the rear seating platform. Bass quality is excellent and output capability is "adequate". :W

Thanks for the complement. I did the white for spouse approval. Matches my woodwork through out the house. I did paint them with automotive paint that has a very high gloss. She wasn't to keen on that. What ever it takes to get them in the room.
I currently am using a 12" sub for a car,with my 240w, with an old speaker box roughly 3.1 cu. ft. with a 3" port 7" long and it does ok. I say this not knowing any better. 90% of my listening is music or TV. Very few movies. Would you need all that you have for music? I wouldn't want to break the wife's pretties. I have done that and its "ugly".
Thanks Dave

[Dave Pellegrene]

Near as I can tell, it looks fine Dave. Mount the boards so that the inductors are a few inches apart from each other. Remember the mid and tweeter are connected with reverse polarity on this design.

C

I believe I have them done right. If I didn't have them reverse polarity how would I be able to tell through listening? As far as that goes are there things to listen for that would tell me I made any other mistakes in the wiring?
Thanks Dave

[FroDaddy]

You owe it to yourself to look into an infinite baffle subwoofer system. Being a DIY guy, at least entertain the idea by reading about it for an hour or two, it might be the solution you're looking for.

ThomasW runs the best IB resource website so you're in good hands: http://ibsubwoofers.proboards51.com/ Read through the FAQ and see if it's something you'd like to do. There are subwoofer drivers specifically designed for IB systems, but all of that information is available as a resource on the website above. With a WAF to consider, an IB sub is much easier scale since you can conceal the manifold; compared to box or sonotube subwoofers you'd have them somewhere in the theater space.

I have one suggestion of my own with subwoofers, and that is to build / buy more than what you think you'll "need". You'll want to EQ your new subwoofer system anyway, so by going bigger you will have enough dynamics to make the system sound however you want it to regardless of how big you build it or whatever design you choose (IB, boxed, sonotube).

HTH

[engr_dave]

Good points, FroDaddy. IB is the way to go if you can. Typical Arizona construction didn't give me that option: Concrete slab floor, no attic, no usable adjoining spaces. I forgot to mention EQ to flatten response and tame room modes. I use Behringer DEQ2496 and although convenional wisdom says not to use boost to fill response troughs, I did... so headroom is indeed your friend :

Dave, for just music, you can can get away with a lot less sub. I had a JBL B380 (single short-throw 15" in 4 cuft vented) with 300W and it was adequate. However, the first time I tried to watch the "Pearl Harbor" attack sequence at realistic volume, the "clack" of the voice coil hitting the pole piece 8O told me I needed more.

[Dennis H]

The HO version of the 12" RS will work in 1 cu.ft. sealed. You'll need some EQ and plenty of power to boost the low end.

[Dave Pellegrene]

[QUOTE=FroDaddy]You owe it to yourself to look into an infinite baffle subwoofer system. Being a DIY guy, at least entertain the idea by reading about it for an hour or two, it might be the solution you're looking for.

Hadn't thought about that. A quick look on the site I see you can use a crawl space. I do have an area of my living room with a crawl space under it about 8'x20'. I will have to read more on it.
Thanks Dave

[Dave Pellegrene]

The HO version of the 12" RS will work in 1 cu.ft. sealed. You'll need some EQ and plenty of power to boost the low end.

Hi Dennis,
I have no problem building a new box if that is what I need to do. The box I built has the hole cut out to fit a 10" spk. I dont think I can fit a 12" in it.
Thanks for the info
Dave

[Curt C]

I believe I have them done right. If I didn't have them reverse polarity how would I be able to tell through listening? As far as that goes are there things to listen for that would tell me I made any other mistakes in the wiring?
Thanks Dave

If either the woofers or mid inadvertently were reversed, you'd get a big dip in the response at the crossover frequency. This hole would be quite evident. The mid/tweeter are in phase quadrature, so a reversed tweeter for example, would have little (but some) audible effect. Errors in wiring could be range from subtle to momentous. The best way is to double check everything, then check it again.
That's what I do...

C

[flamethrower1]

Hey Pelegrn, I am currently in the process of securing pats for the mini statements and saw the pics of yours, NICE!
I noticed that you ported yours out the back
What info do you have on cunstruting these this way, tube length, placement etc.
Any info would really be appreciated

[FroDaddy]

You owe it to yourself to look into an infinite baffle subwoofer system. Being a DIY guy, at least entertain the idea by reading about it for an hour or two, it might be the solution you're looking for.

Hadn't thought about that. A quick look on the site I see you can use a crawl space. I do have an area of my living room with a crawl space under it about 8'x20'. I will have to read more on it.
Thanks Dave

By installing an IB manifold in the crawlspace, thus attaching it to your floor joists, you will have a huge benefit because the subwoofers will definitely have a tactile effect in your living room. (I'd say the tactile effect it's hit or miss with a boxed sub, but maybe someone else can chime in on that.) Using your crawlspace, you can conceal the subwoofers below your floor which has a high WAF. Also, you can put as many subwoofer drivers you want to down there! :T In effect, an IB is like a huge sealed boxed subwoofer so that can take some of the mystique away from the idea behind how an IB subwoofer works.

Many people go through great lengths to achieve a tactile effect by installing transducers like Aura bass shakers, Buttkickers, or Clark Synthesis. I have dual Buttkickers in a custom platform since my house is on a slab and the foundation doesn't resonate at all.

I'd say an IB is a perfect fit for your situation, but as you can tell I am a little biased (as all IB owners are). I've heard some insane boxed subs before, so I like those as well. Good luck, sorry to hijack your thread with IB propaganda! :rofl:

[FroDaddy]

Hey Pelegrn, I am currently in the process of securing pats for the mini statements and saw the pics of yours, NICE!
I noticed that you ported yours out the back
What info do you have on cunstruting these this way, tube length, placement etc.
Any info would really be appreciated

Do you mean you are you securing patents for the Mini Statements? ("Pats" is short for patents in business.) If so, can you talk more about this since Curt and Jim are the inventors of them?

[Dave Pellegrene]

Finished mimi statements

Finally got them done. Still waiting on a resistor for the center. I haven't had time to listen to them yet. Hopefully this weekend.
Dave

http://picasaweb.google.com/pelegrn/MiniStatementAndCenterSpeakerBuild/photo#5200923719338099778

[impala454]

Do you mean you are you securing patents for the Mini Statements? ("Pats" is short for patents in business.) If so, can you talk more about this since Curt and Jim are the inventors of them?

Can't say for sure, but I'm betting he meant "parts"

[impala454]

and pelegrn, AWESOME lookin minis man. Those are some of the best looking ones yet! Do you have a pic with the grills on?

[David_D]

Finally got them done. Still waiting on a resistor for the center. I haven't had time to listen to them yet. Hopefully this weekend.
Dave

WOW DAVE!
Those look spectacular! Love all the added panels. They look very posh!
Shouldn't have to worry about any cabinet resonances. I bet they weigh a ton.

[flamethrower1]

parts

Yes, I meant parts

[FroDaddy]

Yes, I meant parts

Sorry about that! The phrase "secure patents" is very common, whereas "secure parts" wasn't obvious to me at all. ops:

Pelegrn, congrats on finishing them. I'm curious to read about your listening impressions!

[Dave Pellegrene]

Hey Pelegrn, I am currently in the process of securing pats for the mini statements and saw the pics of yours, NICE!
I noticed that you ported yours out the back
What info do you have on cunstruting these this way, tube length, placement etc.
Any info would really be appreciated

I talked to Jim about this and he told me the port location is not that important as long as you don't put it directly behind the woofer. He suggested the placement I used. I used the length suggested on Curt's site.

Cut (2) 4 1/2" sections of 3" port tube and 2 inner and 2 outer flares.
Dave

[Dave Pellegrene]

WOW DAVE!
Those look spectacular! Love all the added panels. They look very posh!
Shouldn't have to worry about any cabinet resonances. I bet they weigh a ton.

Yea had to get help to carry them outside to cut in the drivers. No holes to pick them up buy now. All the panels was done to get wife approval. She loves them. Goes nice with the decor. Now on to subs and surrounds.
Dave

[Dave Pellegrene]

By installing an IB manifold in the crawlspace, thus attaching it to your floor joists, you will have a huge benefit because the subwoofers will definitely have a tactile effect in your living room. (I'd say the tactile effect it's hit or miss with a boxed sub, but maybe someone else can chime in on that.) Using your crawlspace, you can conceal the subwoofers below your floor which has a high WAF. Also, you can put as many subwoofer drivers you want to down there! :T In effect, an IB is like a huge sealed boxed subwoofer so that can take some of the mystique away from the idea behind how an IB subwoofer works.

Many people go through great lengths to achieve a tactile effect by installing transducers like Aura bass shakers, Buttkickers, or Clark Synthesis. I have dual Buttkickers in a custom platform since my house is on a slab and the foundation doesn't resonate at all.

I'd say an IB is a perfect fit for your situation, but as you can tell I am a little biased (as all IB owners are). I've heard some insane boxed subs before, so I like those as well. Good luck, sorry to hijack your thread with IB propaganda! :rofl:

I have been doing some reading on the IB. I really like the idea of no sub in the room. Wife would like that. So you are saying I can start out with One speaker and keep adding till I get were I want to be? Sounds like a cool way to go.
Dave

[Dave Pellegrene]

and pelegrn, AWESOME lookin minis man. Those are some of the best looking ones yet! Do you have a pic with the grills on?

I built some really cool looking grills with curves in them that match the curves on the sides and went to cover them with whit grill cloth only to realize you can see through it real easy. Hadn't planned on that. My wife said they looked like rose trellises so I scraped them out. I may try to find some kind of material to put behind the grill cloth so you cant see through them and only use them when the little ones are around.
Dave

[rj45]

IB subs

I have been doing some reading on the IB. I really like the idea of no sub in the room. Wife would like that. So you are saying I can start out with One speaker and keep adding till I get were I want to be? Sounds like a cool way to go.
Dave

I haven't ventured into sub land yet, but the IB fans all seem real happy with their builds. Displacement is key. Start with something like 2 15" woofers and a good dollop of watts. Add more if you need more.

-Don

[FroDaddy]

I have been doing some reading on the IB. I really like the idea of no sub in the room. Wife would like that. So you are saying I can start out with One speaker and keep adding till I get were I want to be? Sounds like a cool way to go.
Dave

Most people build a manifold (box) to mount the woofers in, so you need to pair them together facing each other so the mechanical energy from each woofer effectively cancels out (however, the acoustic energy is not lost). What you can do is build the manifold for, lets say 4 woofers, cut holes for them, then plug the holes back up so you can easily mount more woofers later on as desired. I HIGHLY recommend this because I didn't plan ahead and had to extend my manifold!

Another configuration that might be an option for you is to do an IB as an array instead of using a manifold. Essentially you build a baffle for the woofers and mount the baffle into your floor. Still, I'd make the baffle wider for future expansion if you go this route. I want to say that I have never seen someone do an IB array using their floor as the interface, only the wall. I'd recommend asking for Thomas' blessing before moving forward if you try this approach. I'd imagine you'd get the most tactile effect with an array in the floor which is why I mentioned this.

IMO, the tactile effect is very underrated by people and it should be considered as a top priority when considering any subwoofer system... for both music and movies. Most people feel if they concentrate on SPL output the tactile effect takes care of itself, but in my experience that is not the case at all. I definitely have my flame suit on at this point, so your mileage may vary as they say.

Sorry for the long reply, but I type fast so that's my excuse :W

edit: I'd recommend starting out with no less than 15" woofers, and maybe 18". I know there are two manufacturers that sell IB 15" woofers (Dayton being one of them), but I'm not up to date on the 18" market so I don't want to blindly recommend 18" woofers if they aren't up to the task. I use Dayton IB 15" woofers myself, but my choices were slim at the time. There are higher quality 15" woofers available on the market now that I'd consider if I were building a new system.

[flamethrower1]

Pelegrn, How Do They Sound?

[Dave Pellegrene]

Pelegrn, How Do They Sound?

So far from the little time I have had to listen they are totally different from anything I have ever heard. I havent had a chance to sit down and really listen to them. I will this weekend and let you know.
Dave

[Dave Pellegrene]

My listening impressions

Had a chance over the weekend to listen. I went through a lot of different music.
My comparison is going to be mostly against my Cerwin Vegas that are a two way speaker with a 15" woofer and a bullet tweeter in a vented cabinet playing in a room 25'x27' with 11' ceilings.
Right off the bat the damping was a huge difference. I did not realized how much sound I had in my CV's that wasn't suppose to be there.
The next thing I notice was the amount of mid range I picked up. Really noticeable in the drums. Then it would have to be the clarity. The NeoCd3's are awesome. I have never heard such clarity. The bullet tweeters in the CV's are like in your face. The Neo's are more laid back and easy on the ear
After listing for a while I started to notice how different the vocals were. They didn't seem to come directly from the speakers and right out at you. Most songs the vocals seem to hover between the speakers and sometimes they just kind of fill the front of the room. Occasionally they will come directly from one speaker or the other. As I listened more I would find myself looking around like someone came into the room, but no one was there. I think that is due to the realism of some of the sounds produced and the way it just appear around the room. It could also be the damping difference. I may be possibly hearing reflections off the walls of the room. I would have to say one of the most impressive things I heard was the way some of the instruments would almost appear in the room like 3D almost like they were really in the room playing.
After my wife finally went outside to plant flowers. I started turning the volume up to see how they handled it. It instantly raised the hair on the back of my neck. I thought for sure they were going to take a lot of power to play loud and they seem to be every bit as efficient as my CV's. I would have never believe that a speaker that sounded so good at low volume could be so efficient at high volume, but they just seemed to sound better the louder I played them. I decided to turn on an elec/dance station to see how they compared to the clubs that I have been to. With my 100 watts per channel amp they seem to fill my room as well as any club I have been in and very clear at high volume. They didn't seem to really be working very hard either. I think I ran out of amp way before I was really pushing the speakers. After about a half hour of some high volume playing I turned the volume off and listened not even a little bit of ringing in my ears. To bad I didn't have these 20 years ago.
I played some jazz and blues and again the clarity and smoothness was just unbelievable. It seemed that there was a lot more separation of the instruments, like they were more placed around the room and not so much blended together.
I tend to like a fair amount of bass, so a sub with them is necessary for me. My amp is a Yamaha and I believe they play fairly flat so that could have an impact.
I would have to say for the money I invested I don't believe I could have found a better design to build. I have to give thanks to the good people in the DIY industry they guided me to the perfect speaker to build. I have to give a special thanks to Jim & Curt for answering all the questions that I had along the way.
For someone like myself that had no experience in speaker building, now that the dust has settled, and I have some knowledge, I don't ever see me replacing these speakers with anything better. Probably adding to them with the monitors for surrounds.

Thanks Dave

[JonP]

I currently am using a 12" sub for a car,with my 240w, with an old speaker box roughly 3.1 cu. ft. with a 3" port 7" long and it does ok. I say this not knowing any better. 90% of my listening is music or TV. Very few movies. Would you need all that you have for music? I wouldn't want to break the wife's pretties. I have done that and its "ugly".
Thanks Dave

Great looking speakers, Dave...

Wanted to mention, in case you didn't know, that the stuff called "museum putty" or other names is just the thing to attach knick knack stuff securely against earthquakes... natural and otherwise. If you get all her things well nailed down, they won't make bothersome rattling sounds, not to mention fall off shelves and break. :T You'll both be happier...

It's also great as a sticky but non-staining added mass weight, or attachment for weights, when measuring speakers' VAS... but that's another story...

The stuff with a brand name of "Quake Hold" that I use... though I don't know if they sell it other places than California... Probably with another name.

[Dave Pellegrene]

Great looking speakers, Dave...

Wanted to mention, in case you didn't know, that the stuff called "museum putty" or other names is just the thing to attach knick knack stuff securely against earthquakes... natural and otherwise. If you get all her things well nailed down, they won't make bothersome rattling sounds, not to mention fall off shelves and break. :T You'll both be happier...

It's also great as a sticky but non-staining added mass weight, or attachment for weights, when measuring speakers' VAS... but that's another story...

The stuff with a brand name of "Quake Hold" that I use... though I don't know if they sell it other places than California... Probably with another name.

I googled it and found the stuff you are talking about. Funny you mention it. Last night I a was playing some music and I was watching one of her pictures in a metal frame slowly moving off the shelf. I went and got my hot glue gun. Not what your thinking. I put a couple of small dabs on the bottom let it dry then set it back down and it worked. It will peal off if you want also.
Thanks for the tip. Dave

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the great feedback and listening impressions. I can't argue with you a bit. I'm really pleased you're enjoying the Mini's as much as I do.

Jim