Comparing DIY speakers to Store bought-Price shock!

[DeanP]

Well I always was wondering how much DIY speakers would compare to store bought types. I was at A & B Sound this past weekend and they sell Totem . They also had the drivers and x-overs out for display to show what they look like. The one driver they had was a HiVi D6.8 which they use in their Forest. I was quite shocked to see the price of $1997.00 per speaker. "JonMarsh" built a set of bookshelves for his daughter with this driver. I'm not sure what his BOM price was, but I'm sure it was about 1/4 of the price of one speaker.
I also saw their tweeter and it looks like an Usher...
Here are some links with photos...
A & B Sound Forest
Totem Forest

[ThomasW]

The cheapest speakers have 100% markup at retail, high-end speaker have 900% markups...

We know a lot about the Totem Forest since JonW has a pair and opened them up telling us about their design.

[DeanP]

Thnaks Thomas, I found those threads. Quite interesting how he compared the Forests to the Modula MT. Looks like I'll have to build a pair of Modulas with the Seas tweeter.

[JonW]

Hi Dean,

You noticed that they are a tad expensive, eh?

I think the total driver cost for a pair of Forests is in the range of $200. I think it’s a Seas tweeter. Totem says they modify it somehow. Not sure if it’s a minor or major modification.

But I have to say that I really do like the sound of those Forests. So much so that I bought a pair. That was before I started down the craziness of the DIY speaker road. To my ears, I have still yet to hear a commercial speaker under, say, $7500 that I like as much as the Forests. Although we could always attribute that to my not having heard enough commercial designs, I guess. I have seen mention of people not liking the Totem sound, though.


For what it’s worth in terms of commercial versus DIY... I now have my current Spassvogel MT project to the point that I prefer them significantly over the Forests. I’ve done many, many side-by-side comparisons. And when I just want to listen to some music, I always go for the Spassvogels over the Forests. That’s with the flimsy test cabinets with the front baffle strapped on. We’ll see what happens when I get to the final cabinets completed. Total driver and crossover parts costs for the initial, test version was something like $1,000 per pair, from about $850 of drivers and $150 of crossover parts. It’s still a work in progress so many details will change and we will see how they really turn out. And this is all to my personal tastes.




Hey Thomas,

I hope all is well on your end. I need to give you a ring someday to see what’s going on.

[servicetech]

It's unreal how much commercial speakers cost, which is the whole reason for getting into DIY in the first place. I know most of you are more interested in building a $5,000/pr speaker for $1,000, however there is also a lot to be saved on the low end of things.

Commercial speakers costing less than $200 pr typically have a single electrolytic cap in series with a $5 mylar tweeter. The woofers are similar to the $20 "replacement woofers" at PE. $500/pr buys a full range crossover w/mylar cap and a soft dome tweeter, a bit better woofer. Don't even get me started on the the cabinets... You can build these "low end" speakers for about 1/4th what they cost in the store.

When I worked at an authorized repair center that serviced commercial speakers (we don't work on speakers anymore) I saw what was actually in there, especially the under $1,000/pr stuff they sell a lot of. I am actually surprised they sound as good as they do considering how they are constructed.

[JonP]

It's unreal how much commercial speakers cost, which is the whole reason for getting into DIY in the first place. I know most of you are more interested in building a $5,000/pr speaker for $1,000, however there is also a lot to be saved on the low end of things.

Commercial speakers costing less than $200 pr typically have a single electrolytic cap in series with a $5 mylar tweeter. The woofers are similar to the $20 "replacement woofers" at PE. $500/pr buys a full range crossover w/mylar cap and a soft dome tweeter, a bit better woofer. Don't even get me started on the the cabinets... You can build these "low end" speakers for about 1/4th what they cost in the store.

When I worked at an authorized repair center that serviced commercial speakers (we don't work on speakers anymore) I saw what was actually in there, especially the under $1,000/pr stuff they sell a lot of. I am actually surprised they sound as good as they do considering how they are constructed.

Yep, I concur...

We had a local Good Guys store sell everything off when they folded up... seemed they had a lot of damaged speakers in inventory. I got to see the insides of a lot of "mid-end" stuff that way. Surprising how cheaply built the up to $1000 speakers can be... 1/2" - 5/8" particle board, next to no bracing, etc...

[Emprov]

I was just down at Circuit City and saw some of the speaker down there, my HT system kills just about anything in there for thousands less. Granted, I'm only a hack whose only built other people's designs but still... Saw a pair of Bookshelfs on clearance for $150, the sucked. :B

[servicetech]

Consider how most HT's are set up, cheap store bought speakers are probably adequate:
1: Speakers are rarely ear level
2: Speakers are rarely an equal distance from the TV
3: Speakers are commonly laid on their side and put in book shelfs
4: Speakers laid LCR across the top of the TV or entertainment center
5: True 5.1 connection is rare, most people simply use the L/R output from the TV

I understand most people cannot afford a dedicated HT room, and many people have spouses to appease when setting up the living room fro HT. Living rooms sometimes are difficult to arrange for optimum HT use. What kills me is sometimes people spend thousands on equipment then it's not even set up right...

On the majority of the calls I go on people listen through the TV speakers, if they own a HT system they only turn it on for movies.

[Rolex]

I am all for DIY, but I'd like to point out some things. If you move up in range to say $2k-$5k for a pair of speakers, things change from your typical under $1000 speakers. The cabinets get nicer, crossover components usually get better, and the drivers are better.

Commercial companies have to pay for lights, employees, trucking, advertising, R&D, and, at the end of the day make a profit. They are always going to be more expensive. They do have some advantages. With CNC machines coming into play, they can manufacture products quite cheaply and very quickly compared to how long it would take a DIYer to produce.

B&W has to think twice about the difference between a $2 cap and a $10 cap when building 50,000 pairs of speakers. For those of us building one pair of speakers, $16 bucks doesn't make much difference.

In addition, if you do not already own all the tools you need to do DIY, or have the space, you will have upfront cost to be concerned with. Not everyone wants to get into DIY. I know many audiophiles that could care less why their speakers sound like they do. They just know they like it. And, if they can afford expensive speakers, more power to them.

There is no doubt that DIY offers the best bang for your buck if you have the tools, space, and time to complete the project.

[Hdale85]

Well I think for most of the people here DIY is not about the bang for buck. Heck a lot of people that build here probably don't save as much as you think because we do so much overkill when ordering parts and building the cabinets. It's just a hobby its fun.

[---k---]

Similar experience once upon a time, I borrowed for a week a pair of Paradigm Studio 40s and DynAudio 42s, along with some Ascend 340SE which I had for a month. I invited CJD over with his RS150 MTMs to do some listening. I was sold on DIY at that moment (it just took a year to realize ). His $250 speakers were easily beating the $1400 top of the line Paradigms.

But, I do it more for the project aspect to keep me out of trouble. I enjoy my speakers very much, they make me happy, but I have a hard time sitting and listenign to more than one cd at a time. But, at the same time I would probably find another hobby if I wasn't getting so much bang for the buck with this one. I know I would have to spend probably about 2x - 3x what I've spent so far, including tools, to get the same experience.

[ahaik]

For me too.
When I compared the Modula MT to my ex Paradigm Studio 100,s ($2400 6 years ago) I was shocked :E .
The difference wasn't small, the MT clearly beat them in all aspects but low end extension.
I just wish I had the time to build, this is an addicting hobby :B

[owdi]

I agree that most commercial stuff is very overpriced for what you get, but there are some good deals out there. IMO, the HiVi Diva Swan M200's are an excellent value, as are the User S-520's.

Dan

[---k---]

I wouldn't say that commercial stuff is overpriced. I would say that in the quantities and sale model that Paradigm, etc. is selling, that they are about average in the company profit column. This is also why internet direct companies that are building the speakers in china and have no retail space can offer such great value.

It isn't fair to bash commercial stuff based on price. This just shows how much your time and effort is worth to build the boxes, design the crossover, etc...

[fjhuerta]

Commercial speakers costing less than $200 pr typically have a single electrolytic cap in series with a $5 mylar tweeter. The woofers are similar to the $20 "replacement woofers" at PE. $500/pr buys a full range crossover w/mylar cap and a soft dome tweeter, a bit better woofer. Don't even get me started on the the cabinets... You can build these "low end" speakers for about 1/4th what they cost in the store.

I beg to differ...

I have a pair of the smallest Energy Connoisseurs... the C-50. At first I didn't like their sound and wanted to redo them completely. Then I realized they really had to be at ear level - and then they sounded great.

I measured them at 1 meter. They are basically flat from 300 Hz up. I was very intrigued - so I disassembled them. Aluminum tweeter crossed over at 2 KHz, a nice small woofer, air-core inductors (the woofer one was iron, obviously), electrolytics on the shunt circuits and polypropilenes on the tweeter. A 1/2" MDF reinforced enclosure, too.

I don't think I can build something like that for $150 a pair.... definitely not with S/H included.

[dwk]

This is always a topic that generates strong views.

One thing that has been said before but bears repeating is that the largest single cost of a speaker is generally the cabinet, and so it shouldn't be terribly surprising that by building your own cabinets you can undercut the commercial units. However, this is only really true so long as you don't 'charge' for your time - at even $10/hr that economic advantage evaporates pretty quickly. This is why I tend to see things similar to --k-- in that if you enjoy the shop time and the building time so that the process is rewarding and enjoyable all by itself, then the $$$ savings is just the bonus.

As a counterpoint though, it's not always so cut and dried. I've posted this before, but I finally broke down and purchased speakers after many DIY experiments when it became clear that I couldn't duplicate what I wanted for the price. Now, these are pro PA cabinets (Yorkville U15), but I got them for under $2k to my door and by my accounting it would cost me over $1k to duplicate the drivers alone, to say nothing of the horn, xover and cabinet. Even considering they get bulk driver pricing and no doubt use cheap industrial grade xover components, I have no idea how they can sell them for this price and make any money.

[servicetech]

I beg to differ...

I have a pair of the smallest Energy Connoisseurs... the C-50. At first I didn't like their sound and wanted to redo them completely. Then I realized they really had to be at ear level - and then they sounded great.

I measured them at 1 meter. They are basically flat from 300 Hz up. I was very intrigued - so I disassembled them. Aluminum tweeter crossed over at 2 KHz, a nice small woofer, air-core inductors (the woofer one was iron, obviously), electrolytics on the shunt circuits and polypropilenes on the tweeter. A 1/2" MDF reinforced enclosure, too.

I don't think I can build something like that for $150 a pair.... definitely not with S/H included.

An unusually high quality speaker for $150/pr. Small speakers tend to be of better quality than larger speakers of the same price. A 65HZ -3db point for a 4.5" woofer is pretty impressive.

[Scottg]

It isn't fair to bash commercial stuff based on price.

Sure it is..

It just depends on what the price is (vs all other factors).

Once you start getting beyond 9-12K for a pair of speakers, there seems to be very few that loudspeakers that justify their existence beyond the fact that the market will support it.

Ex. 30K for a pair of Wilson Watt/Puppies - NOPE.

Ex. 40K for an MBL 101 - YUP.

(..and the above is without regard to actual sound quality.)

[servicetech]

At some point the source material becomes the limiting factor, what source material would you use to get all that a $9-12K speaker pair is capable of?

[Hdale85]

If you had to build the cabinets that the Wilson Watt/Puppies use for someone how much would you charge? Just for the cabinets? Let alone cost in R&D for the crossovers driver choices and then MFG costs as I'm pretty sure those are hand made.

[---k---]

it is really pointless to argue this...

[joetama]

it is really pointless to argue this...

Bingo...

There are factors which make it very pointless...