Wondering why no one has built a WMT with RS180,RS52, and Seas or Dayton Tweeter?

[Michael Murray]

I think a small WMT with RS150 or RS180, RS52, and a Seas 27TDFC or Dayton RS28A would be a very nice compact & slender stand speaker. The WWMT designs out there are just too big for alot of people and most wives don't approve of them. Anybody got any designs out there? A matching WMTW center channel using RS150's could be pretty compact at around 9" tall. I got a couple of RS150's new in the box and just waiting to be paired with the RS52 mid. I think when used with a sub, they would work very well for Home Theater and music. What's anyone's thought on this?

[impala454]

If you follow the Statements series by Jim Holtz, he has a WMT monitor speaker in the works which I believe will utilize the RS180 (plus the same mid/tweeter combo that is in the mini statements & center channel). If I recall he mentioned that we'll see them once it warms up where he's at

[Brian Bunge]

I'm getting ready to build a WTMWWW tower and WTMW center using the RS180, RS52, and RS28a. I've thought about using them as a TMW monitor for surrounds. The only downside is, you'd be looking at a baffle size that's roughly 9"W x a minimum of 17"H. That's barely tall enough to fit all the drivers on the front baffle, so 18" to 20" is probably more like it. At that point, you're into a pretty good sized standmount speaker. I honestly don't see why adding a second woofer and making it a slim tower with the same footprint as the monitor is an issue.

What I'd really like to do is find someone who can make an integrated faceplate for the mid and tweeter to get them spaced a little more closely together. I even thought about doing this with the Vifa D26 tweeter for even closer spacing between the mid and tweet. I think something shaped like the Energy speakers' mid/tweeter grill would look nice, although I think they could have easily gotten closer spacing by using a single mounting plate. It looks like they still have the mid and tweeter on separate mounting plates underneath.

Here's a pic of what I'm talking about:

[Michael Murray]

Impala454- That design uses a different midrange and really want to stick with a dome midrange. I used to have 12" 4-way speakers that used a dome midrange and loved them. Got rid of them because they were huge monkey coffins.

Brian- I'm not against making them slim towers instead of stand speakers. One reason for a WMT instead of WWMT or WMTW is cost and if using a sub you don't need the bottom end that those other designs provide. Effiency would be fine as well once the lower bass is removed from the WMT, they would go plenty loud. I would also be willing to remove material from face plates to get them closer.

[AlanH]

What I'd really like to do is find someone who can make an integrated faceplate for the mid and tweeter to get them spaced a little more closely together. I even thought about doing this with the Vifa D26 tweeter for even closer spacing between the mid and tweet. I think something shaped like the Energy speakers' mid/tweeter grill would look nice, although I think they could have easily gotten closer spacing by using a single mounting plate. It looks like they still have the mid and tweeter on separate mounting plates underneath.

This idea always seemed great to me too. The same TM assembly would be easily dropped into a center channel too. Madisound has a HiVi combo that follows this pattern, the Hi Vi TM1A . Has anyone used or tested this combination? According to Madisound, it is based on the HiVi TN28 1" tweeter and the HiVi DMN 2" midrange.

[cjd]

The RS52has a removable faceplate, so it's just an issue of choosing the tweeter and having new flaceplates made. The D26 tweeter would also work perfectly in this application.

I wonder what it would cost to have a small production run made. Might look into that.

C

edited: typo, had said RS180 instead of RS52

[BobEllis]

Michael,

Two woofers of the same type don't go anly deeper than one. They do play louder with less distortion, though. Crossover costs will be roughly the same, but with an extra RS180 per side you'll spend another ~$75 or so over a single woofer design.

Zaph's ZTD3 is pretty close to your stated goal, other than using an Aura tweeter. http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZDT3.html John does a great job with his designs, and they are typically great values.

RS150s are nice, I have a pair of RS150/27TDFC speakers in my bedroom. But, if you have any aspirations of getting loud, you really ought to use an RS180 or 2. The 150s really don't want to go much below 80 Hz, and even then there isn't much cone area so you're volume limited. If you really want to do a three way with RS 150s as your woofer, use a pair.

WAF is a serious issue for a lot of us. I set up the smallest speakers I'd built - 9x16x14 stand mounts at my S/O's house and they were referred to as "Those big speakers"

[Brian Bunge]

The RS180 has a removable faceplate, so it's just an issue of choosing the tweeter and having new flaceplates made. The D26 tweeter would also work perfectly in this application.

I wonder what it would cost to have a small production run made. Might look into that.

C

Chris,

I assume you mean the RS52. I should have 3 of these here today along with 4 more RS180's. I'll have all the mids for the front 3 speakers and when I get PE to swap out the RS28a that I have with a bent faceplate I'll have enough tweeters, too. Then I'll just need two more RS180's for the center. Although I'm intrigued with the idea of a WWTMWW center, especially if I build it into the A/V cabinet/TV stand.

Alan, I've seen those HiVi's before. I think I'd much prefer an integral faceplate in the shape of the Energy mid/tweet grill. I think it would look a lot more slick.

[cjd]

Oops! Yeah, RS52. I'm gonna go edit that post to correct. RS28A also has a removable faceplate and could work pretty well.

I'd go for a rectangular faceplate with a 1/8" radius corner to make it easier for folks to flush-mount.

[spentit]

You can check out post#9 in this thread, I will be building these in the spring for front L/R and rear surrounds with the WMTW center to match.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=28690&page=1&pp=35

[Brian Bunge]

Oops! Yeah, RS52. I'm gonna go edit that post to correct. RS28A also has a removable faceplate and could work pretty well.

I'd go for a rectangular faceplate with a 1/8" radius corner to make it easier for folks to flush-mount.

Chris,

Actually, that would probably work nicely as well. Now if I can somehow get my uncle to knock out a pair for me. He could probably do it if someone could use that front panel designer program and work up the layout. I'm just not too good with that kind of stuff.

[Turn2]

I'm about 90% finished with a DA175/RS52/Audax TM025 3-way. I chose to build my own cabs but this design could be squeezed into a PE .75 cu. ft. box, barely. Unfortunately, I may have purchsed one of the last pairs of the Audax tweeters available, so the design is kind of a dead end. In my opinion the RS28 would be a mismatch and a waste of $50 in a (compact, budget) 3-way design.

While these drivers may seem like an odd combo, the crossover was modeled (by someone else) without BSC on the assumption that it would be a bookshelf. My wife loves to jam my stuff as far into corners as she can. :roll: That alleviates some of the issues with the low output DA175, hopefully.

And yes, I think the RS150/RS52/whatever tweeter 3-way is a worthy idea if that is what you want to do.

[Michael Murray]

What if?

My question is can Zaph's ZDT3 center channel be built using only one RS180-4 instead of two RS180-8 and not have to change crossover, since electrically it is still seeing a 4 ohm load(would be used as left and right speakers). The Speaker could be as small as 0.5-0.6 cuft sealed and front baffle of 13-15" tall with only one RS180 and cross to a sub at 80hz. For the center channel I would build it as spec'ed with 2-RS180-8 drivers, sealed in 1 cuft. I need reduced BSC on all three front speakers(which this design already has), my left and right speakers sit on wall shelves and my center is in an amoire entertainment cabinet on top of the TV. I looked at Dennis Murphy's 3-way with RS225(which comes closest to my needs), but it is too big for my needs(won't fit on my wall shelve brackets). What do you think, will it work? The differences between the RS180-4 and 8 might require some crossover adjustments, I'm not sure, I don't have any speaker design software. Any one willing to run the numbers to see what it looks like?

[cjd]

My question is can Zaph's ZDT3 center channel be built using only one RS180-4

No. Resulting sensitivity is different, and the impedance is also not exactly half.

[Michael Murray]

I was afraid you were going to say that
I'm just not having any luck finding small 3-ways using RS52 that suit my needs(fit on wall bracket shelves). I have a couple of RS150-8 drivers new in box, maybe I should just build the RS150MT for LCR's and try and get the center's baffle height down to 10"(one of my limitations to fit in TV cabinet) buy routering the faceplate on tweeter.

[Brian Bunge]

Why not build Chris' MTM as a center? He designed the crossover to work well in a horizontal orientation and it would be well under 10"H.

[Michael Murray]

I have seating positions around 30 degrees off axis from center channel and was trying to get the best solution. I have looked at Chris's MTM design, Rs150MT design, pretty much all the designs and have been patiently waiting for the RS180 Neo D center channel design(too big for my LR channel), but none of those would work as well as a single RS180, RS52, Small tweeter 3-way for left and right and dual RS180 center with same drivers as left and right. I'll just keep searching and patiently waiting.

[Jim Holtz]

I have seating positions around 30 degrees off axis from center channel and was trying to get the best solution. I have looked at Chris's MTM design, Rs150MT design, pretty much all the designs and have been patiently waiting for the RS180 Neo D center channel design(too big for my LR channel), but none of those would work as well as a single RS180, RS52, Small tweeter 3-way for left and right and dual RS180 center with same drivers as left and right. I'll just keep searching and patiently waiting.

Michael,

If you want a center that gives you good off axis listening, you have two choices. Either a conventional speaker (M/T, MTM) that is sitting upright or a W-M/T-W that is designed as a center. An optimized MTM on it's side will get you 15 degrees off axis at best, IMHO.

What about the new center that Ryan and Chris are developing?

Jim

[Michael Murray]

Jim,
What center is Chris and Ryan developing? Can it be used as LCR? Thanks in advance.

[Jim Holtz]

Jim,
What center is Chris and Ryan developing? Can it be used as LCR? Thanks in advance.

Hi Michael,

Here's a link to the thread: Here

No, it's designed as a center only but it should integrate quite well with the W/M/T 3-way that Dennis Murphy did as a variation of the WWMT RS 3-way or the Kahnspires etc.

BTW, have you looked at the Statements center? It's superb. There'll be a WMT version of the Statements by this Summer in a 22" tall cabinet that will be a perfect match if you want to try our open back transmission line design. No against the wall placement, however.

Jim

[Jonasz]

I'm just not having any luck finding small 3-ways using RS52 that suit my needs(fit on wall bracket shelves)

I did remember someone somewhere doing a design with a RS225, RS52 and a Vifa XT19 in one of the PE-boxes. I'm pretty sure it was over at DIY-Audio...

Btw, JonMarsh did a design with two HiVi 7", RS52 and the Vifa D26. I think he was gonna develop a version with the RS180 also. It used a PE-box. Don't seem to be able to find that one either right now but it's here somewhere... :B

[augerpro]

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=27218

[Hank]

Brian, I imagine a machine shop would make you a few aluminim plates, say 1/2" thick, for not too much money. Should be a quick job. Someone here posted sources for aluminum plate a while back. You could buy some black anodized rectangular plates and have them machined. I've been thinking lately that my ultimate speakers will be line array OB's and I'm wondering about a sandwich of 3/4" MDF front, PE vinyl layer and 1/4" aluminum back, perhaps mounting the drivers to the aluminum plate.

[Brian Bunge]

Hank,

Yeah, I need to look into that. Just overlapping the faceplates I see I can get a height around 8" with the drivers roughly 4" on center. I'd want to make sure that I can re-attach the grills over the mid and tweeter domes as well.

The question is, where do you buy anodized aluminum plates?

[Hank]

Jon posted that he used aluminum for a mid and tweet baffle quite a while ago. I'm sure that some time in '07 there were a couple of posts about on-line aluminum sources. Gotta leave the house now, but will do a 'net search later.

[benchtester]

I would recommend against machining the parts after anodizing. While it is possible in an emergency, it puts an extra burden on the machinist. With each step, the surface must be protected. The shaving from simply drilling a hole can whip around and mar the anodizing.

If you do go this route, cover the surfaces with contact paper before machining and clamping. If you do scratch the surface, a sharpie marker can cover it up (but is still visible when the lighting is right).

For a pair of plates, it might be better to paint after machining. Anodizing after machining could be very reasonable with a small group buy since the price will probably be just the minimum lot charge.

Just my two cents.

[Brian Bunge]

Maybe I should get a piece of 1/4" ply, MDF, or masonite and do a mock up to see exactly what the spacing, etc. should be. Then I could see about getting a drawing made up for it.

[cjd]

I'd powder coat over anodizing anyhow. A lightly textured matte black.

[Brian Bunge]

Chris,

Was it www.xpressmetals.com that you were suggesting to Jon a while back?

[cjd]

online metals

C

[Hank]

If you want to buy aluminum plate and paint it after machining, here's a source (1/4" thick x 6" wide x 12" long 6061 alloy for $6.26, or .61/inch for shorter pieces):

http://www.speedymetals.com/pc-2254-8351-14-x-6-6061-t6511-aluminum-extruded.aspx

[Brian Bunge]

Hummm...sounds interesting. I think 3-4 pieces of that would work well. My only real concern would be whether the 1/4" thickness would affect the domes of the mid and tweeter. The faceplates are around 1/8" thick so I might be better off going with that size plate instead.

[cjd]

1/8" thick you'll want to make as small as reasonably possible - say, 3/4" flange. 1/4" you can make fairly large for ease of installation.

In either case I believe you'll want the driver opening rounded over. For the D26 the 1/4" would be a better match I think.

Definitely do a test piece in HDF and measure results.

C

[Brian Bunge]

An 8"H x 6"W piece of aluminum will keep the flanges pretty close to their current dimensions. The mid has a 5.125" diameter and the tweeter has a 4.125" diameter. If I overlap them and get them as close as possible the two flanges together are right at 8", IIRC. So I think I'd be ok with 1/8" but I'll double check that.

Oh, and I'll definitely to a test piece in HDF before moving forward with the aluminum.

[Hank]

Brian, have you considered truncating the drivers' flanges so you can butt them together and not overlap them? Set up a jig and slice 'em with your table saw. IF they're plastic, that is. Actually, if they're aluminum, you could use a saw blade made for nonferrous metals. OR hand cut with a hacksaw.

[JoshK]

I had thought about making this mounting faceplate, good to see I'm not the only one.

What I think would make a really cool project is tweeter + RS52 + 2x RS225 in a floor standing cab. A smaller version of a watt puppy style cabinet would be even cooler. But I'm just dreaming and I wouldn't have time for such a project for years to come.

[Brian Bunge]

Hank,

I could actually just cut the tweeter recess with my router and then come back and do the mid recess with the tweeter faceplate screwed into place. That way the part of the tweeter faceplate that would overlap the mid faceplate is actually cut to the diameter of the mid faceplate.

I did that before with some tweeters for something I built for Danny one time. It worked just fine. I was just hoping for something a little more elegant.

[Paul Ebert]

I had thought about making this mounting faceplate, good to see I'm not the only one.

What I think would make a really cool project is tweeter + RS52 + 2x RS225 in a floor standing cab. A smaller version of a watt puppy style cabinet would be even cooler. But I'm just dreaming and I wouldn't have time for such a project for years to come.

I'm planning to build a M8ta NeoD variant with these drivers (w/ D26). Lately, I've been wondering if I want one or two RS225s - comes down to efficiency vs. load.

My wife actually likes the Avalon style cabinets.