DIY design project files

[critofur]

I thought I'd start a thread for anyone who wanted to post "project files" for various designs / programs in one place to serve as a mini-library.

I'll start with some links to ones I could find:

First, not "projects", but some nice beginner info for SoundEasy:

http://chadgray.info/soundeasy/index.cfm

Chad Gray's Dayton RS150 and Dayton RS28 2 way vented, SoundEasy files:
Dayton RS150 and Dayton RS28.

http://chadgray.info/soundeasywiki/index.cfm/Projects.ChadsRS150RS28Ported

Will post more later as I come accross them.

[ttan98]

Chad Gray is a fantastic guy, very helpful....good on you Chad...

ttan

[critofur]

I've spent hours searching on the net for more speaker CAD project files and the scarcity of them is astounding.

Won't some nice folks please step up and open the floodgates? Unleash your files upon us, let the sharing begin!

[Hank]

Great idea - if you get good response, ask the mods to make it a sticky. :T

[critofur]

Frankly, I'm astonished at the scarcity of shared data files for speaker CAD programs!? Comon people, why aren't you sharing? I will, once I've learned how to use these programs well. After much searching, I found something in a non-English language and there is a free program for working with the files:

http://www.tolvan.com/basta/

I'll play with the program / files over the next day or two, this is the first time I've heard of that program though.

edit: The forum I found the link on is in Sweeden

[ThomasW]

Basta is made by the same people that make 'The Edge' which we've had a link to in our references for years.

Usually requests for data files are handled via email or PM since frequently the files are quite large (much larger than our attachment limit). In addition not everyone has the ability or is willing to host their data files on a server.

[Dennis H]

I found something in a non-English language and there is a free program for working with the files:

I don't think you're quite understanding how this works. If you want to use SoundEasy project files, you have to buy SoundEasy. Same for LspCAD or any other design software. The files are proprietary to the particular program. That's why there's so little interest. Few people will be able to use the files.

Measurement files are another matter. Most of the programs can work with simple .txt frequency response and impedance files. With a picture of the crossover schematic and some box dimensions, it's relatively simple to plug the design into any of the programs if you have the measurements. So you don't really need the project file.

[augerpro]

To add to Dennis's reply: even measurements are of limited usefulness since they only represent the response of the driver on my particular baffle. If someone wanted to use a different baffle my measurements are useless.

[critofur]

I don't think you're quite understanding how this works. If you want to use SoundEasy project files, you have to buy SoundEasy. Same for LspCAD or any other design software. The files are proprietary to the particular program. That's why there's so little interest. Few people will be able to use the files.

Measurement files are another matter. Most of the programs can work with simple .txt frequency response and impedance files. With a picture of the crossover schematic and some box dimensions, it's relatively simple to plug the design into any of the programs if you have the measurements. So you don't really need the project file.

Who isn't understanding? Of course I understand, and it's unfortunate that there isn't a standard file format for complete projects including measurements, baffle demensions/cabinet design, crossovers, etc. BUT...

Some people have SoundEasy, some people have LspCAD, and everybody can have Speaker Workshop , WinISD, and any other free or demo program. And SoundEasy is only $250, even less if you buy a used copy from someone then upgrade. I can borrow SoundEasy to try it for a while, but I wanted to find a few current relevant projects for it first, before I do so.

Usually requests for data files are handled via email or PM since frequently the files are quite large (much larger than our attachment limit). In addition not everyone has the ability or is willing to host their data files on a server.

I posted a link to the only SoundEasy project files I could find (and so far I haven't found any for LspCAD or Speaker Workshop ) and those three files are only 2MB each?!? That's tiny! And, traditionally, larger files are more easily hosted and downloaded, rather than emailed, as email attachment limits are vasty smaller than file hosting / transfer limits?

Oner person emailing a few files to one other person is far less useful to the community than having links to projects shared for all to benefit from. Again, it seems downright bizare, that there are such strong DIY Audio communities, but so few examples of projects using current, available, affordable drivers that we can download and load into programs for desiging speakers. :E

If hosting is the issue preventing some particular person from sharing such fun and useful files, then I'll host them. If what Dennis said, that not that many people have these programs, is really accurate, then surely the bandwidth usage of people downloading them would be too small to even notice.

To add to Dennis's reply: even measurements are of limited usefulness since they only represent the response of the driver on my particular baffle. If someone wanted to use a different baffle my measurements are useless.

It's not useless if its fun. Its not useless if you learn something from it. Are the .PDF files with manufacturer's data on the drivers including T/S parameters, and FR graphs "useless"? Without information like that, how could we decide on which drivers to try for our next project? When I worked at a speaker company I could just buy a dozen different drivers to test, evaluate, and take apart to see if they would either be useful for integrating in a new product, or, learn something from them to help in the designs of our own in-house built custom drivers. Since I (like most other DIY speaker enthusiasts) don't work at such a company anymore (and I don't have enough money to just do the same thing anyway) it would be very nice if we could have access to the files other forum members have generated in testing and evaluating drivers. Both for those drivers which we couldn't afford to buy until we already knew that they would be compatible with the design we want to build, and, for drivers that we also have, to compare to our designs/ideas. And, in the case where a similar design to what we want to do has already been done, a lot of time could be saved taking an existing design and making some tweaks in the program then seeing the effect in simulation before actually building; such as: changing from an MTM to a TMM, using a different tweeter or woofer with the rest of the design being mostly the same, because you don't have exactly the same parts, etc...

Don't most of these programs allow you to compensate for different baffle shapes using the same previously generated FR?

Don't you have a "standard" large baffle that you first measure drivers in before you build a cabinet for them?

If there doesn't already exist a public "standard" baffle, then let's decide on one and start using it?

[critofur]

Great idea - if you get good response, ask the mods to make it a sticky. :T

Thanks, let's hope we do, this would be a great sticky. :T

[critofur]

Somebody, anybody? How about just a .WFR file for the TB W5-704 to play with?

[Undefinition]

Somebody, anybody? How about just a .WFR file for the TB W5-704 to play with?

If you get spltrace, you can trace the mfr's FR and impedance curve and make FRD and ZMA files with that. It works surprisingly well. I did the Aethers with it, in conjunction with Jeff Bagby's Response Modeler and Passive Crossover Designer.

If you don't trust the mfr's specs, why not trace jkrutke's or Mark K's FR and impedance graphs? (just be careful combining those with the mfr's graphs)

Roman Bednarek also has a fair amount of .frd and .zma files already traced at his site, if you want to save yourself the few minutes it takes to trace the mfr's graphs.

Sorry I'm not here to dole out files. But honestly, spltrace is really easy to use... and it takes less time than lugging out all my measurement gear.

http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/utility/spl.htm

[NEO Dan]

Don't you have a "standard" large baffle that you first measure drivers in before you build a cabinet for them?

If there doesn't already exist a public "standard" baffle, then let's decide on one and start using it?

I am in the same spot, I want to build a baffle and get to measuring. But other than the dimensions:
135 cm wide, 165 cm high with driver center offset 15 cm to one side and 22.5 cm towards the top from the baffle center.



No one seems interested in giving up construction info, Zaph has a little bit of info and a couple pictures, but it's not enough to build from.

Measurement accuracy is important to me. A standardized test baffle makes sense even if you don't plan on sharing the data.

[Dennis H]

Originally Posted by critofur
Don't you have a "standard" large baffle that you first measure drivers in before you build a cabinet for them?

If there doesn't already exist a public "standard" baffle, then let's decide on one and start using it?

No. Other than a few people on the net doing driver measurements for their own sake, most people have a specific design in mind. They may do some preliminary measurements of the drivers to see if they are suitable for the design but they don't use those measurements for designing the XO. They determine the baffle size, box size and driver locations for their design with simulations and then build a 'real' box before making their final driver measurements. That way the measurements reflect the real world and you just plug them into the XO design software as is -- no need to adjust them for baffle effects, BSC, box tuning, etc.

The closest to a 'standard' baffle is the IEC open baffle Dan mentioned (google is your friend) but hardly anyone uses it. Scanspeak/Peerless/Vifa as well as Dayton drivers are measured mounted into a wall of the anechoic chamber for an infinite baffle. Seas uses a standard box sitting in the middle of the chamber.

[Dennis H]

BTW, if you're interested in measurement files available on the net, Roman Bednarek has a bunch of them. They are standard text files that can be used by any software. You'll have to understand how the measurements are made and adjust accordingly.

http://www.rjbaudio.com/Audiofiles/Driver%20FRD%20files.html

http://www.rjbaudio.com/Audiofiles/audiofiles.html

FWIW, Zaph doesn't like to provide the files, although he has tons, because they depend so much on how you measure and he doesn't think they will translate very well into designs different from his own.

[critofur]

No. Other than a few people on the net doing driver measurements for their own sake, most people have a specific design in mind. They may do some preliminary measurements of the drivers to see if they are suitable for the design but they don't use those measurements for designing the XO. They determine the baffle size, box size and driver locations for their design with simulations and then build a 'real' box before making their final driver measurements. That way the measurements reflect the real world and you just plug them into the XO design software as is -- no need to adjust them for baffle effects, BSC, box tuning, etc.

The closest to a 'standard' baffle is the IEC open baffle Dan mentioned (google is your friend) but hardly anyone uses it. Scanspeak/Peerless/Vifa as well as Dayton drivers are measured mounted into a wall of the anechoic chamber for an infinite baffle. Seas uses a standard box sitting in the middle of the chamber.

Won't programs such as SoundEasy and LspCAD let you load the FR from an IEC baffle then simulate the difference when implementing a different baffle?

What I really don't understand is: why don't all these manufacturers make available a "standard" file (like .WFR for SoundEasy) to let you model their speakers in whichever software you use, and, if not the manufactures, then at least Madisound and Parts Express??? Is it because they want you to buy some drivers just for testing?

Most of us don't have the greatest measurement environment as these large manufacturers can afford, and can keep available at all times. It could be a part of their standard development and testing cycle with each driver developed to make these files and make them available to us consumers. If they collectively decide on a standard file format than you can bet for sure that if SoundEasy or LspCAD can't already load them, they sure will be able to soon with an update or a patch...

I can program in C/C++ (and a couple different obsolete assembly languages) I wonder how hard it would be to write a program that would allow us to convert between SoundEasy, LspCAD, and Speaker Workshop file formats? There are probably a few other folks who could do that much more easily and quickly than I could...

Hypothetically speaking - if Zaph miraculously changed his mind and decided to share several of his collections of SoundEasy files, and we load those files up, if we made changes to the enclosure, the crossover, or even took out or added a driver, wouldn't the program be able to accurately reflect the changes in the simulation? How would that not be useful?

[Dennis H]

Aarggg.... I typed a long reply and it went to bit heaven. Short version:

.wfr files aren't "standard." Text formatted files (.txt, .frd, .zma) can be imported/exported by any program. There is absolutely no need to mess with proprietary formats.

There are software tools (not built into most of the packages) that can kludge a conversion from one measuring environment to another but it will only be a poor theoretical guess, not really what you want. It's a lot of work (more than doing a measurement) and it's not particularly accurate.

If you have XO design software, you already have measurement software, so buy a $40 mic and be happy.

[NEO Dan]

Although I'm a SoundEasy Noob I do believe you can import the CLIO files PE posts on some of the driver pages.

Read the section in the SE manual on importing measurement data

[critofur]

...With a picture of the crossover schematic and some box dimensions, it's relatively simple to plug the design into any of the programs if you have the measurements. So you don't really need the project file.

Can Sound Easy really be "relatively simple" to someone who doesn't know how to use it yet?

I did use SPL Trace recently and loaded the files into LspCAD, but had trouble getting a simple first order series crossover to work using the schematic editor. Not sure what I did wrong as I couldn't find any examples (using LspCAD) to compare to what I was doing.

LspCAD is nice because for something quick you can download the free demo version, you just can't save your work with the demo version.

Although I'm a SoundEasy Noob I do believe you can import the CLIO files PE posts on some of the driver pages.

Read the section in the SE manual on importing measurement data

Too many of the drivers they sell don't have those files - I wish they would include them for all the drivers they sell...

...If you have XO design software, you already have measurement software, so buy a $40 mic and be happy.

I have an ECM8000, and I built a mic with a Panasonic electret capsule, but, the M-Audio Fastrack USB I got to do measurements with has been nothing but headaches; any measuring I've tried to do so far (since I moved away and don't have access to the lab at the speaker company where I used to work before) has turned out very poorly so far...

[critofur]

Never thought this would be like trying to pull teeth out of a playtpus... Anyway, I finally found more project files: http://www.rjbaudio.com/Microbe/microbe.html

Guess I'll take a stab at Speaker Workshop...

I don't know if it's just me, or if these programs (LspCAD, SoundEasy, Speaker Workshop) user interfaces were designed by aliens, they seem sooo un-intuitive.

Although I'm a SoundEasy Noob I do believe you can import the CLIO files PE posts on some of the driver pages.

Read the section in the SE manual on importing measurement data

Thanks for the tip, now I've got a driver that I used showing up nicely in Sound Easy, but, trying to see what a simple crossover does do it is not turning out so easy...