Wallin Jig VS Dayton Woofer Tester 3

[NyxOne]

Hi everyone,

i'd like to have your advice concerning woofer T/S measurement. I currently have set my mind on two possible options.

1. Dayton Woofer tester 3 (WT3).
2. Wallin jig.

I'm having problem setting my mind on one solution because both seem to have their set of problems.

1. Dayton Woofer Tester 3 :
- Will certainly cost me over 150 $ buck to get it home (Qc, Canada). Half of the price goes for the shipping

- I haven't seen alot of thread about it in this forum or elsewhere and that make it hard to tell if it really does the job.

- I've downloaded and tried (without the WT3) application and i must admit that the quality of this program is not impressive at all... (i'm an IT guy). I'm sure that it does what it's suppose to do but ... Anyway.

2. Wallin jig.

- You have to build it yourself and use Speaker Workshop. Building it won't be a problem as I've a friend who will do it for me. Using speaker Workshop isn't a problem either for me as it's seem to work well for others and i'm not afrai to learn.

- Calibration : This is the part that keep me from going with that option. If the calibration is wrong, everything is going to be wrong...? I've also read that the calibration really is dependent on your sound card making it impossible to use with someone else computer. Also, i don't have access to advanced calibration tools.

Finally, i eventually would like to be able to do (one day) FR measurement and i don't want to buy stuff twice. So if one solution is re-usable for my a future gear it would be a must.

Thanks in advance
------------------
Charles D.

PS : i hope my English didn't sucked to much

[ThomasW]

Just for grins I ordered WT3, it will be delivered tomorrow. So this weekend I'll play with it and post my impressions.

[NyxOne]

Nice,

i'm really eager to hear what you think of it. Let me know as soon as possible. And BTW, does that mean that you don't have any equipment to measure your the T/S parameter for your drivers ?

Charles D.

[Dennis H]

And BTW, does that mean that you don't have any equipment to measure your the T/S parameter for your drivers ?

Uh, no. Thomas has more gear collecting dust in his closet than most of us will ever hope to own.

[JonP]

- Calibration : This is the part that keep me from going with that option. If the calibration is wrong, everything is going to be wrong...? I've also read that the calibration really is dependent on your sound card making it impossible to use with someone else computer. Also, i don't have access to advanced calibration tools.

Finally, i eventually would like to be able to do (one day) FR measurement and i don't want to buy stuff twice. So if one solution is re-usable for my a future gear it would be a must.

OK, I went the Speaker Workshop and Wallin Jig route at first, and I can tell you a few things.

First, don't worry about the calibration. What you do, is find what settings work on your computer, then save them, and you don't have to redo that later. That's for setting the levels on your system. You use parts in the Jig to do the calibration, so that's constant. If you ever go to another computer or change your sound card, you would have to go thru that again, but it's not "impossible". You can save the configuration, and go back and forth between them.

Another way to check if your calibration is on, is to measure known parts, resistor, cap, inductor, and see if they come out with the right values.

Speaker workshop is kind of quirky, but works well once you figure out things. There is an "unofficial" user guide by Jay Butterman out there you really should find. Also find Claudio Negro's website for more tutorials and info. He also has photo steps on making a set of cables and parts, rather than the Wallin Jig. I'd reccommend this, at first anyway, since it's simpler to use a cable set for one task or the other, rather than having the box with several switches to forget to set right... ops: One less thing to confuse yourself with while you're learning...

The other side... the Woofer Tester is a tiny, self contained package. You plug it into any computer with USB, load the software, and you're ready.
It only measures impedance, though, no frequency response. SW will do frequency response, you will have to get some kind of decent microphone and preamp to do that. The mic and preamp will be usable with any other software that measures FR, so it's an investment in the future... nothing particular to SW there.

Wow, I wrote a book! Anyway, hope that helps...

[NyxOne]

JonP : Thanks, i appreciate your input about speaker workshop and the Wallin jig. I think I'm gonna a try the Cable thing since it look simple and cost less time and money than the Wallin jig. If it gives good results i might try to do Wallin Jig unless ThomasW result with the WT3 are good.

I've just read a thread about how important measurement are so i think I'm gonna invest some money in a MIC and an External USB Sound Card. I know there is a couple of thread around here who gives enough informations on how to build a great "Starter-Diyer" kit!

Again, thanks !
---------------
Charles D.

[ThomasW]

Uh, no. Thomas has more gear collecting dust in his closet than most of us will ever hope to own.

Actually Jon has the all big time speaker testing gear. As a result I didn't need any thing other than the Sencor 'Z' meter for checking home-made inductors and caps, and a True RMS DMM with 4 digit readout for generalized testing.

Jon's gone missing for an undetermined amount of time, so my plan is to start comparing different test gear, testing systems, and software packages. To that end I tacked a WT3 on to an existing PE order. I'm not sure it's worth the price of admission if it's actually limited to only measuring impedance and Vas. But I'm curious to see how it's impedance measurements compare to those done with a standard software package and test jig.

[dlneubec]

I picked up a WT3. It is extremely easy to use and fast. You can hook it up, and have your impedance plot, VAS and TS parameters for a driver in just a few minutes. You can run it on a single driver or a completed speaker, etc. One thing I haven't done, however, is compare the results to what I measure in SoundEasy.

[Hank]

I bought a WT3 and Jonathan and Mark came over and we tried it on several drivers from 3" 'full range' to 12" woofs. I am a bit disappointed in that it is touted as being able to test not only woofs, but smaller speakers. Well, on all drivers less than 10", it tested QTS much higher than drivers' published specs. The smaller the driver, the larger the delta between WT3 results and published specs. At 3" level, the delta was HUGE. I will try some more testing in a week or so. Recovering from CES now.

[jkrutke]

Here's a quick comparison of some WT3 results compared with SE14 results. It's fairly close. I did the SE14 run with a low level to keep the comparison fair, though I normally test T/S at high levels.

Note that the WT3 accuracy seems to hinge on how accurate the calibration resistor is. Those who can accurately measure the resistor and enter that value should get the best results.

It's a nice compact unit that's quick and easy to use, though a little pricey for just getting T/S numbers. Now if PE came out with a mic/preamp testing combo with software for $100, that would be a real breakthrough.

[---k---]

Can the WT do an impedance of speaker also, or just the drivers in free air?

[ThomasW]

Wow thanks guys lots of good info.... :T

Anyone have experience with either Woofer Tester 2 (it's MCM Tenma clone ) and or Speaker Tester or Woofer Tester Pro?

Ryan,

It will test assembled speakers too

[NyxOne]

Huummm.... it's seems that we have to kind of result with the WT3.

Hank mentionned that he had problem getting good measurement with small driver but when i look at Zaph measurement they seem pretty close to his SE14 setup.

ThomasW : Let us know you start your measurement, it'll be interesting to compare your result!!!


---k--- : From what i read, yes WT3 can measure the speaker too.

From the manuel (help file) :

"While the primary application for WT3 will be testing raw drivers in order to gather the speaker parameters required for speaker design, loudspeaker designers can also use WT3 as follows:

Measure Speaker Parameters
Measure inductors
Measure the impedance of complete multi-way speaker systems
Measure closed box resonance frequency (frequency of the closed box impedance peak, F(sc))
Measure vented box vent tuning frequency ( the frequency of the minimum between the two peaks, F(B))"


----------
Charles D.

[---k---]

According to the latest version of Loudspeaker Cookbook, the WT2 has issues, and people should look for the original WT instead. I don't remember the issues, but can look it up this evening with proper reminding.

Thanks for the info about it being able to handle completed speakers.

[NyxOne]

Hi guys,

i just wanted to let you know that i couldn't resist and bought a WT3. I'll still try the cables from Claudio Negro just to see the difference between WT3 and Speaker Workshop.

I'll let you know if i get result that are worth showing!
----------
Charles D.

[Luke G]

Here is an in-depth review of the WT3.

http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/1016/dayton-audio-woofer-tester-3-wt3-review

[Eton]

Note that the WT3 accuracy seems to hinge on how accurate the calibration resistor is. Those who can accurately measure the resistor and enter that value should get the best results.

I find for the most accurate results, instead of using the 1000 ohm resistor that’s included for calibration, use a 6-7 ohm resistor. Something close to a speakers Re value.

[Dave Bullet]

Charles - one more thing about calibration for SW. Don't forget to subtract any series resistance of the DMM and probes / cable etc... from your reference resistor measurement. I use an 8ohm resistor (ok - 8.25 as accurate as my DMM allows) and that gets me pretty good impedance and T/S measurements. I use a simple cable setup with a Soundblaster PCI clone card on an old PII machine running lowly Win98SE.

One thing that stuffed me is my sound card loved putting spatial / reverb back on when rebooting. QuickMix (which is handy to restore record/playback levels for consistent (calibrated) measurment) does not reset this.

Dave.

[dlneubec]

FWIW, It looks like maybe you can do inductor and resistor testing in WT3. Even though I can find no documentation on it, I tried it with a .65mH/.38ohm Jantzen inductor and a 5 ohm Mills resistor. Here is what I got after running the standard TS parameter sweep:

Inductor clipped at lead ends: .6328mH/.404 ohms

Resistor: 4.989 ohms

Is it a coincidence that these are so close to the spec? I'm not sure if it can do caps and if so, what value to read them from.

[dlneubec]

As a follow up, it was just confirmed by Jeff Bagwell, who apparently was in on the development and testing of WT3 for PE, that it can indeed be used for measuring inductors and resistors and it is extremely accurate, according to Jeff.

[BigT]

So can someone tell me how the test box method for determining VAS is done? Isn't it simply mounting the woofer in a very small box and measuring that?

[dlneubec]

I haven't tried it, but I believe you simply input the box volume in liters (the more exact your volume the more accurate the results), the drivers piston diameter and run the VAS sweep. It is very quick and easy.

[BigT]

From the AudioJunkies review of the WT3 :

The Test Box Method requires a near exact measurement of volume in an enclosure with no leaks.

Ok - is there any problem mounting the woofer so that it faces into the box? Then it would be much easier to determine the exact volume of the cone.

[NyxOne]

Hi everyone,

I recently received my new Dayton Woofer Tester 3 and wanted to share my impressions with you.

Note to Canadian buyer: It cost me a bit over 150$ with shipping, handling, taxes and everything. I live in Québec so I have to pay for both taxes … . Better think about this if you want to buy one of these.

The software: Well … I’ll be honest with you, I don’t really love it. I think it’s poorly designed. There is so much more that could have been done to enhance it. This software is certainly easy to use but there are a lot of simple features that could have been added to make it better. Anyway … that’s only my point of view.

Example of optimizations: In the drivers editor, they should give the option to automatically calculate the missing value like WinISD do. Have the option of adding a label to the memory so you can easily identify every plot…

The documentation: Don’t expect to find a real tutorial or guide with the installation CD because there’s nothing at all. The only kind of documentation is the help file of the application but even with it there is a lot of answer that you’ll have to find out by yourself.

Example: They say you can measure inductors and resistors but there are nothing telling you how it can be done or where the value will appear. It’s easy to figure it out but I still think they should have written it.

Usage & results: It’s easy to use and understand. I’ve been able to test my first driver T/S within 2 minutes. The results are consistent when testing the same driver multiple times.

As for the measured T/S parameters, they seem to be very close to published data from the manufacturer at least with the drivers I’ve tested: Peerless 850146, 822733, Seas 27TBFCG… although there resonant frequency were all above what they should have been. I tend to believe that the results aren’t as close as they can get as with more conventional methods (Claudio Negro cables or Wallin jig).

Portability: Being less than 0.5 inch thick, 2.5 inch long (without cable) and 1.5 inch width… so it’s really small and easy to take with you as long as you have the calibration resistor and WT3 installation CD (or Laptop).

Personally: I like the idea of being able to take it with me to test my friends speakers or in a shop to check consistency of the drivers I’m about to buy.

Plus:
- Portability.
- Ease of use.
- Good precision for a standalone unit.

Minus:
- Poorly designed application.
- Near inexistent documentation.
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Luke G : Thanks for the info.

Eton : I'll try that trick!

Dave Bullet : I've taken good notes of it. One can never have to much help or information

dlneubec: In fact it can measure Inductor and Resistor and with good precision but i don't think it can work with Capacitor.

Hope this review will help some people around.
-----------------
Charles Dufresne

Note : I'm sorry if I've made some writing mistake.

[Dave Bullet]

Dumb question - did you use Delta mass or compliance methods for woofer Vas calculation?

[tpremo55]

Any chance someone out there has one of these in Iowa? I'd like to compare the results testing a specific speaker between WT3 and SE14. I'd like to do this partly to see if they correlate, and partly to confirm some differences that I am seeing from factory specs on a focal driver that has a reputation for having reliable factory specs. Ironically, I like the measured values much better than the factory specs for my application. 8)

[JonP]

From the AudioJunkies review of the WT3 :


Ok - is there any problem mounting the woofer so that it faces into the box? Then it would be much easier to determine the exact volume of the cone.

Nope.. in fact, it's suggested to do it that way in "Testing Loudspeakers", for exactly that reason. You need good accuracy of the total volume. It's simpler to calculate just the cone, rather than cone + magnet + frame, etc. As long as you can get a good seal that way...

[tpremo55]

Nope.. in fact, it's suggested to do it that way in "Testing Loudspeakers", for exactly that reason. You need good accuracy of the total volume. It's simpler to calculate just the cone, rather than cone + magnet + frame, etc. As long as you can get a good seal that way...

There is always the water displacement method, it's quite accurate... :rofl:

[critofur]

...1. Dayton Woofer Tester 3 :
- Will certainly cost me over 150 $ buck to get it home (Qc, Canada). Half of the price goes for the shipping ...

I've read a few people discussing this topic, I think that you just need to specify GROUND shipping and you can get it shipped a lot cheaper.

It was either UPS or USPS Ground...

[---k---]

Anyone have experience with either Woofer Tester 2 (it's MCM Tenma clone ) and or Speaker Tester or Woofer Tester Pro?

Following up, it wasn't Loudspeaker Design Cookbook, but rather Speaker Building 201 that had the comments.

On page 92, last paragraph of Speaker Building 201, it reads:
Woofer Tester (new version two) is not accurate much beyond 2khz, but still excellent for T/S parameters and analysis for lower crossover frequencies. Some older Woofer Testers (version one) may be available.

This is in the discussion of measuring impedance. It would be interesting to know if they fixed this issue in the new version.