Rear surrounds and center channel size vs quality

[happy]

I have a pretty small living room - 12 x 12 - in which I now use a pair of Natalie P's in a two channel system which sound wonderful, but I am wanting to switch to a 5.1 HT setup to expand my movie listening. I will use the Natalie's as my main/front channels and was thinking of using a pair of cryolites that I now use in my second bedroom system for my rear surround channels, but they are just to big and obtrusive in the small space...

So my question is, what is the smallest design for rear surrounds that would be effective in such a space and still be able to compliment the Natalie's? Can a pair of speakers like the new 4" budget zaph's work or would they be a weak point? Is there anything Better? Smaller?

On a similar note, I was thinking of building the CJD RS150 MTM center and just wanted to make sure that it too would be a good match for the Natalies?

Also, the majority of my listening will continue to be two channel listening - LP's and CD's - but I would like 5.1 for movies. Any ideas?

Thanks.

[Hdale85]

Well for surrounds any of the dayton TM designs would be good. I believe there is a RS150 TM which is pretty small? And for the center the CJD mtm would be good or if you wanted to step it up a bit more use the WTMW RS 3 way center. For movies I'd say your center is about the most important speaker.

[technimac]

....if you wanted to step it up a bit more use the WTMW RS 3 way center. For movies I'd say your center is about the most important speaker.

:agree:

Jon Marsh's Modula NeoD CC would give you exceptional sound for a center and be just a bit larger than CJD's MTM. :T

But it's a lot more expensive to build. :W

John Krutke's budget MT's would work well for rear speakers at an unbeatable price and are an appropriate size for your needs. If you used these, it's unlikely that your ears will be able to detect the differences between your front, surrounds and rears (after all, your ears will be hearing most of the detail from the fronts and surrounds).

I too find that the center is critical to anchoring the whole front soundstage in movies and I'm very happy that I chose to build a WMTW for that purpose.

[Hdale85]

Only thing I don't know about using the NeoD CC is that the tweeter is a softdome vifa D26 while the Nat P's use a metal dome Dayton RS28A.

[happy]

Thanks for the replies. I would love to build the RS WTMW's as a center and that was my original idea, but like the rear surrounds I think it would be too big and obtrusive in the small space... I'm not familiar with the NeoD CC so I will check them out as well.

Just another thought... When I built my Natalie P's, my first boxes and crossovers were kind of ugly and poorly soldered so I ended up recently building new boxes and made all new and much better crossovers. Anyway, what I am getting at is I have two complete Natalie P crossovers that I could salvage and make into one good one leaving me only the drivers to buy. Would another Natalie P used on its side be a good center? Or is this a bad idea?

[Hdale85]

Bad idea as the Nat P was not designed to be used on its side. The NeoD CC was designed to be used as any speaker in an HT setup but it requires a special crossover approach. I would use the crossovers and build someone a set of speakers or sell them The WTMW is quite large but it's an excellent speaker. The NeoD CC fits into a PE enclosure but you'd probably want to wait for the RS180 version which I believe they said will be done around march maybe?

[cjd]

A Natalie P on its side would work, but would have a pretty narrow off-axis listening area before picking up some bad comb filtering in that rather critical 1-3kHz range where all the sounds we use to actually understand speech exist. It's crossed about where my MTM is crossed, and I only recommend 15 degrees of-axis, with 20 degrees at the outside - and the spacing on mine is a great deal smaller with things pushed to allow this "on the side" use (though still not recommended).

C

[technimac]

...The NeoD CC fits into a PE enclosure but you'd probably want to wait for the RS180 version ....

If he's pressed for space, the NeoD CC (RS180 version) could be a problem because for optimal performance it requires a much larger enclosure than the HiVi D6.8 version (which will be the better performer in a standard PE cabinet, I believe).

I'm building a 40L enclosure for the NeoD CC (HiVi D6.8 version) and it's discussed here:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?p=365838

from post #95 to 100.

The plan is to then build NeoD CC (RS180 version) ~55L towers for L&R mains.

[---k---]

Just another option, CJD and I are working on a center channel with the RS180s, RS150 and RS28. Should match the Nat P's pretty well when done. It is still going to be big, just a hair smaller than the Dennis Murphy WTMW Center using the RS225s. (You can build it shallower than I am.)

As CJD points out, the problem with MTMs is the off-axis response. With your very small room, I'm guessing that you're going to be sitting directly in front of the center and off-axis really isn't an issue. So, maybe the NatP might work out well for you.

Another option my be a Modula MT vertical if you have the space.

I think any of the options discussed so far would be fine. As always tradeoffs of size and cost.

[Jim Holtz]

Actually, (2) RS180's work really well in a 30 liter enclosure with a 2 1/2" x 7" port. If they didn't the Natalie P's or Statements center wouldn't have good bass which they both do. I agree bigger is better but 30 liters works surprisingly well. You'll end up with a F3 around 40 Hz. give or take.

HTH

Jim

[cjd]

I also have surrounds somewhere in the near future that are intended for partial in-wall mounting, or on-wall. I'm not set on the design yet but I'm at least going to be experimenting with a single RS180-4 at a 45 degree angle (so it's firing at the angle between to the side and down) and a tweeter vertically. We'll see how that works.

C

[happy]

Thanks everyone for the great suggestions. I ordered the parts for the Zaph budget mt's to build and try as rear surrounds. This will get me going while in the meantime maybe some of the other center designs will be done as well.... although with your comments I keep thinking I should just go big on the center - WTMW we'll see.

I foresee a sub on the horizon as well...

[happy]

OK, I have all the drivers and crossover parts ordered for the center and surrounds and I'll post a few pics of everything when I'm done.

So while I wait for the parts to arrive I am beginning to plan on building a sub. I have read a lot of pages, but I am a bit lost as there seems to be so much more information yet far less of a consensus on proven designs... so I thought I'd again ask for help.

Basically I want to build a small sealed box about 18"X18"X18" for 80% music and 20% HT use. As said above it is in a small room - around 12X12 - and my first priority is SQ rather than output. That being said would it be possible to build a good sound quality sub and amp with a $4-500 budget?

I read through the mission accomplished thread and others and was thinking about something like a sealed Shiva-X with a Dayton 500w plate amp, but is this the right direction to achieve SQ? For pure SQ with this budget what would you guys do?