little help

[ajk11235]

i am a poster over at avs forum and someone told me to come over here for this question so i hope that you can help my question is that i am planing on building these speakers Link Not Available thanks to Jay_WJ at avs, i was wondering if anyone had built these or something like it, what were your impressions? do you have a build thread? i will be using the Reduced baffle step compensation option because i will be sitting very close to the speaker, has anyone tried this, any info would be very helpful as i plan to start soon after x-mas.

[tpremo55]

Welcome ajk11235,
For starters, go here: https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13154
You have lots of reading to do, but with tis design, there is a good chance your questions have already been answered a time or two. If not, fire away.

The good news is, many have built this design and it is widely regarded as a value leader in mid-sized 2-way designs and an excellent performer. I have had the chance to listen to a number of builds of this design in many different venus and it has never failed to impress me.

Good luck!

[ajk11235]

wow thank you so much, i will read through all of that, i looked at before i posted but saw that it was ported where i plan to seal mine, i will read it anyway if you feel it will help. looks like im off to do some hw, one question i have is if i am correct to do the Reduced baffle step compensation option if i am going ot be sitting close to the speakers?

[ThomasW]

Mr Kim has a sidebar on his website where he pretends to compare his reduced BSC design to that created by JonMarsh. Based on a flawed comparison Mr Kim concludes there's an error in Jon's design. Truth be told the error is Mr Kim's, since his freeware modeling program isn't capable of duplicating the advanced hybrid series crossover created by Jon.

So the reality is Mr Kim has no idea how Jon's design works, and he's incapable of drawing accurate comparisions between his vaporware creations and the proven designs created by Jon.

i am correct to do the Reduced baffle step compensation option if i am going ot be sitting close to the speakers?

Reduced BSC is needed when the speakers themselves are placed on a wall, in a wall or very near to a wall/boundry

[Andy_G]

deleted

[Maximiliano]

Truth be told the error is Mr Kim's, since his freeware modeling program isn't capable of duplicating the advanced hybrid series crossover created by Jon.

I think a small correction is needed here. The Speaker Workshop he seems to use can process any type of crossover topology. It is Excel-based Passive Crossover Designer that can't model Jon's hybrid crossover.

Max

Edit by moderator to add
Maximiliano is Woe Jay Kim pretending to be someone else

[ThomasW]

Since he misplaced the USB dongle for LspCAD, time constraints forced Jon to create the first NeoD cc crossover using Speaker Workshop. That speaker was build and auditioned during Speaker Camp I, then shipped out to Jon for testing. As a result of further testing, the SW designed crossover was torn out and pitched. Jon found the USB dongle and a new NeoD cc crossover was developed using LspCAD. The new crossover design is what's documented in the Speaker Camp II thread...

Jon's comment after his experience with SW was "it proves the adage, you get what you pay for...

[ajk11235]

so that option will work for me and the design is or is not flawed? it is ok to use the one that is on that site right?

[Jim Holtz]

so that option will work for me and the design is or is not flawed? it is ok to use the one that is on that site right?

Here's the design that you should build. https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13154 It has been built by dozens of people and has been recognized as having the best sound in it's class as DIY event's. https://web.archive.org/web/20080118...n/Iowadiy.html So, why build a copy of an award winning design that hasn't been proven? It doesn't make sense to me.

HTH

Jim

[mazurek]

A lot of restraint here. The fellow whose page you linked concerns me greatly. I'm writing up journal articles for my master's work about material which I know like the back of my hand, but my greatest concern while writing is not to overstate anything or make any claims about things I don't know. It is understandable that the requirements for peer reviewed publication are different than requirements for putting up a website, but I worry that readers that do not have enough background in a subject area may not recognize how skeptical they must be.

[Maximiliano]

Since he misplaced the USB dongle for LspCAD, time constraints forced Jon to create the first NeoD cc crossover using Speaker Workshop. That speaker was build and auditioned during Speaker Camp I, then shipped out to Jon for testing. As a result of further testing, the SW designed crossover was torn out and pitched. Jon found the USB dongle and a new NeoD cc crossover was developed using LspCAD. The new crossover design is what's documented in the Speaker Camp II thread...

Jon's comment after his experience with SW was "it proves the adage, you get what you pay for...

Thomas, since I am a user of PCD and SW, I feel a need to correct some misunderstanding here. The function of CAD software we're talking about is simple SPL summing of individual driver responses, for which any CAD software do a correct job when provided with good frequency responses, acoustic phase, impedance profile, and electrical phase. The SW has absolutely no problem in this regard. Of course, the whole package is a bit inconvenient and less advanced, but the function of crossover simulation with provided data has no flaw and is extremely flexible with no limitations in terms of usable crossover topology. The PCD is also an excellent tool which enables us to see response changes on the fly, except that it has a limitation in possible network topologies that can simulated, because it uses fixed templates.



AJK11235: If your requirement is nearfield listening in a small room, what you need is reduced, around 2.5 to 3.5 dB baffle step compensation. AFAIK, the Modula MT only provides 4 to 5 dB BSC (default version) and zero BSC (in-wall version). Jay's reduced BSC version can be an option for you, but if you can afford a little more cost for drivers, the following design by Zaph can be another option:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php?p=371809&postcount=8

Max

Edit by moderator to add
Maximiliano is Woe Jay Kim pretending to be someone else

[littlesaint]

A lot of restraint here. The fellow whose page you linked concerns me greatly. I'm writing up journal articles for my master's work about material which I know like the back of my hand, but my greatest concern while writing is not to overstate anything or make any claims about things I don't know.

Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes, and very good career advice.

"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing."

-Socrates

[ThomasW]

A lot of restraint here.......but I worry that readers that do not have enough background in a subject area may not recognize how skeptical they must be.

Well said....

There are a lot of 'net-spurts' out there. This means separating the s**t from the shinola is problematic for the n00b, particularly when the sales pitch is seductive

[cjd]

IIRC the problems aren't with SW's modeling of live measured data relative to a given network topology. It has some troubles properly working in x, y, and z-axis offsets as required using simulated data (in fact it only allows you to set one) and it's optimizer is less than horrid if you try to throw anything more than a really basic topology at it.

It can, however, deliver good results if you understand what it can and can't do, and use it within those limits.

That said: LSPCad is on my list of things wanted. Some day.

C

[Andy_G]

deleted

[tpremo55]

Totally unrelated Q.

These cabinets http://home.mchsi.com/~dpeterson/johnpmid2.JPG
Do you know off-hand how much it would have cost John to build the cabinets??

Andy,
While I really liked Johns speaker, the design, and the presentation, I am not exactly sure whether he built them or he had help. I'm not sure what your proficiency or comfort is building them youself, but if you wanted to, they are about 8 1/8" x 10" x 11 1/4" (not square profile obviously) and at about 15 layers of 3/4" high quality birch ply, it would proabably all come form a single sheet. You may even get most of the matching stands form the same sheet (this is quick math, but it wouldn't take more than 2 for sure). Time, on the otherhand, is considerable. Doing the work yourself and buying all materials, probably ~$100 +/-15%. Price simply goes up quickly if you have them CNC'd from a local shop and finished by someone else.

Maybe John will respond.

[Jim Holtz]

Totally unrelated Q.

These cabinets http://home.mchsi.com/~dpeterson/johnpmid2.JPG
Do you know off-hand how much it would have cost John to build the cabinets??

Hi Andy,

John is a home builder by profession and a superb cabinet builder. I really don't have any idea if he'd build anything for anyone except himself. I do know his business keeps him extremely busy and speaker building is his stress release.

Jim

[Dennis H]

See gmed's thread for the trials and tribulations of building them with a router.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23805

[Maximiliano]

It has some troubles properly working in x, y, and z-axis offsets as required using simulated data (in fact it only allows you to set one)

The SW's single driver offset is sufficient if the user knows how to use it. The PCD allows the user to set x, y, and z-axis offsets, but if the user can do a simple math, it's easy to calculate the effective acoustic offset to be used in SW. Or Roman B provides a calculator:

http://www.rjbaudio.com/Audiofiles/driver%20offset%20calculator.html

Then the PCD and the SW work exactly the same way.

[ajk11235]

well this is way over my head, but i am trying to keep up sorry to be such a noob, this is the first set of speakers i will build, my problem is this, it seems like jon's design my in fact be better but i will be sitting close to the speakers and they will in turn be close to a wall so jay design does have an advantage for me but the bigger problem is that i am asking for the stuff to build these for x-mas and the list has already gone out, so to change things now is not impossible but would be a drag, do you guys think that it would be worth it for me to change at this point or will jays speakers work ok for me, keeping in mind that i will have a sub and this is my first set of high end speakers (high end for me anyway, these will be leaps and bounds above anything i have ever heard) i thank you so much for you time and i am learning as fast as i can, i have been on here day and night it seems like forever

[tpremo55]

The speakers appear to be very similar in appearance to the Magico Mini.

As to my proficiency, if I wanted to do them. I could. :B
I think I would outsource to get the shapes cut though.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gradds55/loudspeakers.htm

Ah yes Andy - I'm very familiar with yor work but did not make the connection - forgive me. I've referred to the Argos site pages (in particular the curved side section that you just moved) a number of times for ideas, techniques, and guidance.

[Jim Holtz]

You just identified the real problem. Jay hasn't built the design and it has never been compared to the Modula M/T's. Jay only runs sims. Since no one has compared the two designs but the Modula has won awards for it's sound quality, why would you build an unproven design?

Again, it doesn't make sense. *IF* you build the cabinet correctly and it matches Jon's design, you'll be out the crossover parts if you find that Jay's design doesn't sound as good as the Modula M/T's. Your choice.

HTH

Jim

[ThomasW]

Okay I'll spell it out for you....

Woojae Kim is a statistical psychologist who started modeling speakers last spring. He has no test equipment and designs by simulations alone using measurement taken by other people.

JonMarsh is a 20+yr Senior Applications Engineer for Infineon Technologies. Jon's been designing and building speakers since the late 1960's. He's a twice published member of the AES (Audio Engineering Society) and occasionally writes project articles for AudioXpress. Jon's personal measurement equipment includes Praxis, Clio, a $5000 calibrated mic, Techtronics Dual trace scope, HP Distortion Analyzer, etc., etc. He does his speaker designs using Maple or similar circuit analysis program in conjunction with LspCAD Pro. Jon does all his own driver testing and he validates the performance of his designs with comprehensive testing of the assembled speakers.

Now who do you trust with your money?

[tpremo55]

well this is way over my head, but i am trying to keep up sorry to be such a noob, this is the first set of speakers i will build, my problem is this, it seems like jon's design my in fact be better but i will be sitting close to the speakers and they will in turn be close to a wall so jay design does have an advantage for me but the bigger problem is that i am asking for the stuff to build these for x-mas and the list has already gone out, so to change things now is not impossible but would be a drag, do you guys think that it would be worth it for me to change at this point or will jays speakers work ok for me, keeping in mind that i will have a sub and this is my first set of high end speakers (high end for me anyway, these will be leaps and bounds above anything i have ever heard) i thank you so much for you time and i am learning as fast as i can, i have been on here day and night it seems like forever

If you have already asked Santa for the parts for a set of ModulaMTs, then I would not look back - build them and enjoy. You'll have a really nice speaker there. I will again suggest the design that both Jim and I referenced above in this thread. It is tried and true and typically yeilds a very good result. Without a sub, it would be a no-brainer between the ModulaMT with the RS180s and the Ti-100 design that John had; the Modula wins. I've listened to both and really like them both, but for different reasons. The Modula is a great sounding speaker with better than expected extension, balance and low distortion for the money. I would build the version with the Seas tweeter, but both common designs are VERY close. It's tough to beat as an overall performer for a speaker of that size even with a larger budget. The Ti-100 2-way that John built really has a great midrange quality. It quite honestly had the best midrange (in my opinion, and to my tastes) of any competetive speaker at the 2006 DIY event (we'll leave Wayne's Accutons out of it). The clearity and detail that the titanium cone provides I find extraordinary - but I will also say that many don't share my opinion. The Ti-100 2-way will also need a sub to do full range (more than the Modula).

So to paraphrase my ramblings - the modula would get my vote for your first build, for general use, in a small-ish room, and 'cause santa's elves are already carving out the baskets for the RS180s with your name on them.

Best of luck!

[Maximiliano]

Jay hasn't built the design and it has never been compared to the Modula M/T's. Jay only runs sims.

I don't want to defend Jay, but just want to give correct info. He actually built the RS180 2-way, not just ran simulations.

Max

Edit by moderator to add
The person posting as Maximiliano is actually Woe Jay Kim

[tpremo55]

If you have already asked Santa for the parts for a set of ModulaMTs, then I would not look back - build them and enjoy. You'll have a really nice speaker there. I will again suggest the design that both Jim and I referenced above in this thread. It is tried and true and typically yeilds a very good result. Without a sub, it would be a no-brainer between the ModulaMT with the RS180s and the Ti-100 design that John had; the Modula wins. I've listened to both and really like them both, but for different reasons. The Modula is a great sounding speaker with better than expected extension, balance and low distortion for the money. I would build the version with the Seas tweeter, but both common designs are VERY close. It's tough to beat as an overall performer for a speaker of that size even with a larger budget. The Ti-100 2-way that John built really has a great midrange quality. It quite honestly had the best midrange (in my opinion, and to my tastes) of any competetive speaker at the 2006 DIY event (we'll leave Wayne's Accutons out of it). The clearity and detail that the titanium cone provides I find extraordinary - but I will also say that many don't share my opinion. The Ti-100 2-way will also need a sub to do full range (more than the Modula).

So to paraphrase my ramblings - the modula would get my vote for your first build, for general use, in a small-ish room, and 'cause santa's elves are already carving out the baskets for the RS180s with your name on them.

Best of luck!

***It just occured to me that I went off on a tangent based on Andy's reference to Jon Pastuck's 2-way using the Ti-100. I now recall the question being whether or not to do Jon Marsh's Modula design. To that end - if you have not heard both personally and have formed a personal opinion, I would submit that you really cannot argue with Thomas' logic in his recent response. Sorry for the confusion.

[Jim Holtz]

I don't want to defend Jay, but just want to give correct info. He actually built the RS180 2-way, not just ran simulations.

Max

Hi Max,

AFAIK, it's never been compared to the Modula or any other speaker. DIY events are a great source of credibility. If an experienced designer had created it based on measurements in cabinet with the usual extensive tweaking and voicing that follows, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it. However, none of the above description applies to this design. I'd build the speaker that fits my description.

Jim

[Dennis H]

Yeah, Jay finally built his design and tuned it by ear so it's not totally a theoretical exercise like it was before when he was pimping it on the hypernet. Still no measurements though. Aparently he doesn't think they are necessary. His design might be fine and it might not, who the heck knows? Me, I'd go with Jon's design because of his experience and his proven record of designing good speakers but it's your money and your ears so you pay your money and you take your chances. Whatever, they will probably sound better than Bose.

[ajk11235]

so has anyone built the ones that i am or was planing on building? he seems to think they sound fine, hard to say how they compare i guess. another question i have is if jons speaker would really work for what i need meaning close to a wall and close to the listener. thank you for all your help guys, cant believe the amount of knowledge at my fingertips.

[Dennis H]

so has anyone built the ones that i am or was planing on building?

That's the problem. No peer review of Jay's design.

he seems to think they sound fine

I'm sure he does. Does anyone else agree?

[ajk11235]

so the more i read the more i think that maybe i should change my list a bit and build jons speaker, if i have the driver (Dayton RS180S-8) and the seas tweeter (Seas 27TDFC (H1189)) am i going to need to build the xover, it there one bill of materials that seems to be the best bang for you buck, i am on a budget and would like to keep this build cheap but also not sacrifice too much SQ. also does anyone make the box for jons build seems like most people buy the one from PE and i would really like to build my own, does someone have a link to a site that has a good cut sheet and construction pics?

[tpremo55]

so the more i read the more i think that maybe i should change my list a bit and build jons speaker, if i have the driver (Dayton RS180S-8) and the seas tweeter (Seas 27TDFC (H1189)) am i going to need to build the xover, it there one bill of materials that seems to be the best bang for you buck, i am on a budget and would like to keep this build cheap but also not sacrifice too much SQ. also does anyone make the box for jons build seems like most people buy the one from PE and i would really like to build my own, does someone have a link to a site that has a good cut sheet and construction pics?

Again, check that link we provided way back in this thread. Here you go for BOM detail (directly from the first part of Jon's thread):

Seas 27TDFC tweeter: (updated link to work and attached BOM in PDF)

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php?p=293180&postcount=630

The first is a link to Jim Holtz' BOM posting. Jim can confirm, but I am assuming that is the same that he built (and I have listened to on a few occasions) with a custom cabinet, and also represents Jon Marsh's crossover design. I think that's your ticket.

Build cabinets yourself - absolutely! :T

[ajk11235]

i don't think you your links are working but i should go with what he used in his initial post?

[tpremo55]

i don't think you your links are working but i should go with what he used in his initial post?

My apologies - I fixed the link to the page referenced in Jon's post that had all the BOM for the various tweeters. It should work now. I also just took the pdf and attached it.

[ajk11235]

thank you so much for your help, why is it that no one has tried jays design?

[---k---]

Are we suggesting the regular Modula MT or the Flush Mount - Inwall Modula?

I think a designer should be the first to build his designs.

[tpremo55]

thank you so much for your help, why is it that no one has tried jays design?

There is no reason why you could not build Jay's design, at all. It's probably a very nice design - I just can't speak from experience. I've read Jay's pages before with interest as I don't yet have the mic and pre-amp setup to do my own measurements (yet) and appreciate his insights into the process of design with tools.

The reality is however, that a design's reputation of quality is all subject until people get a chance to hear it. Opinions count - a LOT. Ultimately, it's almost not reasonable to ask "what will I like the best" ...or, "which should I build" because what one listener likes, another may find less than optimum. Music tastes impact the value of a design as well. To this end, many on this forum participate in some type of listening event such as the many DIY events around the country on an annual basis. If a design shows up at one of these events, you usually will have between 20 and 60 critical ears reviewing the design. If the design reviews favorably, you quickly move from a design to a speaker with multiple positive (or negative) reviews. Most people will put more stock in a large population of favorable recommendation than in a hypothetical design (even with the best tools) or even a speaker that only the builder can comment on. Moreover, I'd submit that many designs are replicated as a result of hearing them first hand - again, those designs that make it to regional events.

So, you've asked our opinion, and those who responded did so in two key ways; 1) with personal opinion based on experience and, 2) with some logic and background that you might consider when making decisions beyond #1.
Regardless of your choice, please let us know which direction you go and how you feel it performs. Better yet, take it to a show in 2008 and let others comment on the speaker that you build. :T

[Dennis H]

why is it that no one has tried jays design?

You're probably asking in the wrong place. Jay was a member here for a short time before he had built a speaker. He didn't make a good first impression and he moved on.

[ajk11235]

i know this may not make sense to some of you guys but i think i am going to try jay's for a number of reason
1. being that i already that the parts on order
2. not many people have tried it yet so i would like to give it shot, if i don't like it i will move it the back of the room and build jons as mains.
3. when i asked for help on what people thought i should build because i was going to be so close to the speaker jay was a huge help and explained everything very clearly and got me through my "i know nothing about what im doing phase" of DIY so i want to give his design i shot, i will for sure let you know what i think, i cant wait to start.

also thank you guys so much for all your help, i'm sure i will have about 100 questions along they way and you will be the first place i turn to. your help has been invaluable and will continue to be the best advice one could hope to receive, i read jons design thread from start to finish and i feel like i may be ready to take this on, but i could have never done it without your help.

one more question i just thought of, my AVR when set to small speakers crosses to the sub at 100HZ that will work with these speakers right, i know no one can say for sure because no one has heard, but it seems like it should right?

[cjd]

I don't yet have the mic and pre-amp setup to do my own measurements (yet) and appreciate his insights into the process of design with tools.

Those insights are not his own... publication without crediting the source(s). Or at least, a great many of them are not. Certainly the process he follows has been outlined before - Roman B has had a writeup for ages, and Curt C has also talked at length in the past on some of this.

i know this may not make sense to some of you guys but i think i am going to try jay's for a number of reason

It's not that it doesn't make sense, though history makes some of us unsure of the results. He clearly has a ton of energy and interest in helping folks, but he's managed to insult almost all the people that have been doing this stuff for a long time. And prior to this there were significant issues with the work he was putting out. I'm sure he's learned since then - certainly we were trying for a while.

C

[Maximiliano]

Those insights are not his own... publication without crediting the source(s). Or at least, a great many of them are not. Certainly the process he follows has been outlined before - Roman B has had a writeup for ages, and Curt C has also talked at length in the past on some of this.

Again, I want to be a devil's advocate to give correct info, since I once read his crossover design notes in detail. He did not repeat things in Roman's guide but added more detailed info to some of the key steps in the simulation method. I know this because I used the same method to build my speakers. He clearly expressed the purpose of his notes. And IIRC he cited important sources when needed. He collected useful information.

Particularly, I liked his "voicing speakers" section. Perhaps this is a practice other people have been doing. But he described the process very well. I haven't seen the same info somewhere else.

Max

Edit by moderator to add
Maximiliano is Woe Jay Kim pretending to be someone else

[ajk11235]

that is why i want to try it, because no one knows how they work, i have an opportunity to try something different, something that does have a 25 page long thread about it. i want to blaze my own trail and maybe f up a few times, that is after all how you learn right.

after all if we all built the same speakers then what would be the point, i may be crazy but it seems like this is what i should do. the part are ordered and i cant wait to start building.

on another note i just started my sub today, this is the very first time i have really built anything using only my own directions, and i have to tell you it is a blast. right now i am covered from head to toe in saw dust i think i may have some in my eye, but i cant wait to go back out there and keep working, this is quite a hobby you guys have here :-)

[Dennis H]

Particularly, I liked his "voicing speakers" section. Perhaps this is a practice other people have been doing. But he described the process very well. I haven't seen the same info somewhere else.

Actually, he got that idea here.

[---k---]

that is why i want to try it, because no one knows how they work, i have an opportunity to try something different, something that does have a 25 page long thread about it. i want to blaze my own trail and maybe f up a few times, that is after all how you learn right.

That is an excellent reason to try them. Have fun. Jay will probably be the best to ask questions of from here on out.


I think it is time for the rest of us to take the high road and move on.

[Maximiliano]

Actually, he got that idea here.

Of course, we can find bits and pieces of information about speaker voicing here and there on internet speaker DIY forums. But I haven't seen detailed info about vocing a 2-way speaker provided in a single web page along with one's own helpful insights like Jay did.

Max


Edit by moderator to add
Maximiliano is Woe Jay Kim pretending to be someone else