Veneer Techniques and Tools

[audioslave]

For those out there that have used raw veneer....anyone buy off EBay? I see a couple of regular sellers, with good feedback. Just somethin about getting a good deal that makes me wary.

Also....what non vacuum methods has anyone used?

[Gir]

I haven't used this myself, but I've seen videos (DIY channel ^_^) where they tank some lumber and clamp it down across the veneer. They just used a piece of wood every 8-12 inches or so.

[EDIT]
Since we're in the DIY forums, it's probably worth mentioning the use of bike pumps or shop vacs to make a vacuum. The bike pump is very easy to do. All you need to do is reverse the one way valve (or just replace it on some models). The shop vac is pretty self explanatory...

[Rolex]

I've used the iron on PVA method with good results. Although, I'll note that I only got good results when I used backed veneer. Either paper backed or wood backed. I got horrible results with un-backed raw veneer. My solution there was to lay the veneer down on a really flat piece of steel table top, put the speaker cabinet on that (with glue inbetween) and clamped the top of the speaker cabinet down to the steel table top. This worked great, and reduced 100% the cracking that I was getting with the unbacked veneer and PVA method.

[ahaik]

The raw veneers on Ebay are leftovers scraps from the large veneering companies.
I have used it successfully in several of my projects. It is prone to cracking much more then the backed veneers. The advantage is getting exquisite veneers at reletively low prices. The disadvantage is the cracking.
For large size projects I would use the backed veneer. For small to medium size projects its fine IMO.

[Martyn]

To reduce cracking....

...use a veneer softener.

[Rolex]

I used veneer softener on the unbacked veneer. It does soften the veneer, but I still got cracks.

[audioslave]

Iron on with Raw Veneer?

I have used the iron on method with paperbacked veneer (Heatlock glue from Joewoodworker). It worked well, however to get really nice veneer (curly or burl) the paper backed variety is $$$. On Joewoodworker they mention that you can use the heatlock with unbacked veneer, however cracking can be an issue from the heat. Anyone try this?

I am starting work on a Neo CC and want to try the raw veneer. I don't think I want to try to convince the wife that I need to build a vacuum press too, so I am looking for simpler solutions. The largest panel will be around 14 x 22.

Gir....did u mean to use a vacuum bag with a shop vac? Does that provide enough vacuum....do you have anymore info?

Again, any input from people that have tried various methods would be great.

[technimac]

... On Joewoodworker they mention that you can use the heatlock with unbacked veneer, however cracking can be an issue from the heat. Anyone try this?
I am starting work on a Neo CC and want to try the raw veneer. I don't think I want to try to convince the wife that I need to build a vacuum press too, so I am looking for simpler solutions. The largest panel will be around 14 x 22.
...Again, any input from people that have tried various methods would be great.

Mike,
I used heavy-flaked white oak veneer on my Modula MT's and Audax HT enclosures. It was a challenge, because the veneer naturally has voids on either side of the "flakes". I tried iron-on (yep, it cracked!) and contact cement, but both left many voids that had to be filled using a syringe. :M

I settled on using Polyurethane glue, which gave excellent results. With flaky oak veneer, I made sure that the side with the voids was always "glue side down". Because Poly "foams" slightly while curing, those voids were filled and even if I occasionally sanded through to a glue "pocket", polyurethane (unlike PVA) "takes stain" and blends in quite well. :W

I'm also building a Neo CC, but am going with a 40L enclosure to "optimize" the performance of the D6.8's and I'll be using this veneering method on the enclosure.

Here's a link to the veneering procedure I used:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=294704&postcount=19

HTH,
~Bruce

[Gir]

Gir....did u mean to use a vacuum bag with a shop vac? Does that provide enough vacuum....do you have anymore info?

Yeah, just hook them up to a vacuum bag and let 'em rip. The shop vac should get a decent vacuum, but nothing super strong (or so I'd imagine). The bike pump on the other hand, albeit a long process, should get much better results since you can put all your weight onto the pump to really give it a strong vacuum. Personally I'd use that method, and plan on trying it sometime soon.

[kvardas]

Ebay is a great way to buy veneer!

[audioslave]

roarockit?

I guess the more I look into it, it seems that the vacuum press is the way to go. It seems that it would be very difficult to get the recommended psi with just weights. And there would be issues with chamfered and rounded corners. So now I'm looking at cheap simple options for a vacuum press.

Has anyone tried the Roarokit? It got bashed on Joe Woodworker, however his main complaints were how many pumps it took to evacuate the bag and get decent vacuum, no vacuum gage, and the taped bag closure system. I was thinking of using a reusable bag clamp to mitigate the tape issue. Many of the satisfied users seem to get decent vacuum with much less effort. Joe sells vacuum gages for $8. Just seems a bit cheesy.

Not much on Ebay and craigslist for used veneer presses...damn.

[Dennis H]

I guess the more I look into it, it seems that the vacuum press is the way to go. It seems that it would be very difficult to get the recommended psi with just weights.

Keep in mind that you can crush/implode a speaker box with too much vacuum.

[---k---]

Keep in mind that you can crush/implode a speaker box with too much vacuum.

That just means you don't have enough bracing.

[audioslave]

LOL....I was thinking about that. Any one have pictures of an imploded project?

Since I already cut the pieces for the CC and was planning on using butt joints I am going to run into some trouble. The prospect of trying to use mitered joints on all my future projects is also not appealing. I’m not sure that I could manage a 40 plus inch mitered joint without making tons of mistakes. I would also like to be able to do the Avalon style faceted enclosures too!


I did see a few posts on the wood forums about using an air bladder on the inside of the box to balance the load. Sounds interesting.

[JonP]

I have used the iron on method with paperbacked veneer (Heatlock glue from Joewoodworker). It worked well, however to get really nice veneer (curly or burl) the paper backed variety is $$$. On Joewoodworker they mention that you can use the heatlock with unbacked veneer, however cracking can be an issue from the heat. Anyone try this?

I guess it all depends... I've used the iron on method twice now, but using plain ol' Titebond, or Titebond II. First was some small boxes, with some unbacked Pomelle Sapele... No cracking, but I only did flat planes, no roundovers to follow. Went well, some loose areas that responded to re-ironing. Trick seems to be getting enough glue on both surfaces. I found two coats on both works well. Second box was a pair of Modula MT, and the veneer was paperbacked African Mahogany... that seemed to work a bit easier. I did have 3/4" roundovers to wrap around, no problem with cracking but it's a pretty flexable wood.

I just ironed my way around the roundovers, they stuck pretty well. I should mention that I used a small block of wood in my other hand, following behind the iron, to keep pressure on the heated area while it cools, and to cool it a bit faster. That's my version of Jon M's alleged "two handed iron" method, where the second (unheated) iron presses and fixes the joint behind.

This was on Baltic Birch ply boxes I should mention as well... I did give them a shellac seal coat first, but it probably is even more important with absorbant MDF. I imagine some of the glue soaks into the surface... could result in thin areas that don't stick as well.

Overall, worked well for me, and only a few areas I had to go over again.

HTH...

[JonP]

LOL....I was thinking about that. Any one have pictures of an imploded project?

----

I did see a few posts on the wood forums about using an air bladder on the inside of the box to balance the load. Sounds interesting.

I think I saw someone post one a while ago... wasn't pretty!

If you are able to draw full vac, you will have 14.7 lb on every square inch... that's 2116.8 per square foot!! How strong is your box??

A bladder with a hose to atmosphere will counterbalance, but if you have a complex shape, bracing inside, bag dosen't match your box perfectly... CRUNCH!!!

[NateTTU]

Does anyone have a recommendation on the type of contact cement to use on veneer? I got some advice from a guy who sounds like his full time job is making speakers or high end furniture so he had some good ideas. He told me that the stuff from home depot or lowes would easily bubble if the veneer got too hot. He recommended some 3m Fastbond 30NF but it can only be bought in bulk quantities (over $250) or for $35 a quart on ebay. I'm not sure how much of this stuff I would need but that price for a quart is pretty expensive.

[JonW]

I used some contact cement I bought at Lowes or Home Depot. If I recall, it was from DAP and in a gallon can. Maybe $20-30 or so. I can dig it out if you want specifics. I was putting paper-backed veneer on my Modula MT's. It worked fine for the flat parts. But it worked less well around the 3/4" roundovers. It worked OK enough for that, but there are a few spots where the veneer lifted up. But you can't really see it.

For my next project I'm going to skip the contact cement and try the iron-on PVA glue (e.g., Titebond II) method. I'm hoping it will bond a little bit better and be easier to place- you can still move the veneer around after it touches the cabinet, before applying the heat. Also I want to avoid the powerful solvent fumes of the contact cement. The fumes didn't bother me too much, but they are something to avoid for long-term health. When it's February it's too cold to work outside so I'm in my basement with all the fumes.

[Jim Holtz]

Does anyone have a recommendation on the type of contact cement to use on veneer? I got some advice from a guy who sounds like his full time job is making speakers or high end furniture so he had some good ideas. He told me that the stuff from home depot or lowes would easily bubble if the veneer got too hot. He recommended some 3m Fastbond 30NF but it can only be bought in bulk quantities (over $250) or for $35 a quart on ebay. I'm not sure how much of this stuff I would need but that price for a quart is pretty expensive.

Hi Nate,

I've used 3M water base and DAP water and solvent based contact cement. The DAP solvent base works well but you need to be out in the garage with warm temperatures to use it. The 3M also worked well. You can get it on line for about $20 a quart. You get one shot with contact cement. You screw up positioning the veneer and you've wasted the veneer. There's no moving it.

I used the iron on method with Titebond when I built the Mini's and would never go back to contact cement with paper back veneer. It's very easy to do and works great.

HTH

Jim

[Silversmoky]

I have worked with some raw veneer in the past. I used the Better Bond veneer glue for adhesion and used the clamping process. This method works pretty well with some patience.
Get some 3/4 stock (plywood or mdf) a little larger than the panel you will be applying the veneer to. (For even more strength you can use two panels stacked together. Apply the glue liberally, put veneer down on top, roll down tight with a veneer roller to press it down and get any bubbles out, place mdf or plywood down tight on top, then clamp all the way around. Takes about 60 minutes for the panel to set up. Was pretty effective for me but I also have interest in using a vacuum press for some of my next projects.

[NateTTU]

Thanks guys,

The Titebond II iron method sounds like a plan. I'm assuming that the iron on method is to let it completely dry and then put the veneer on the speaker and then iron it on?

On another note, I purchased some raw veneer, without paper backing. Will this still work okay? It was the only way I could purchase a very nice and exotic veneer for a reasonable price.

Lastly, I heard of using bondo or I can mix Titebond II or III with saw dust to cover the imperfections on the speaker. Somehow we got the top off square so now there aren't gaps but just spots where the peices of wood are not flush. Whatever method is used will need to be able to soak or hold up against primer and paint application.

Nate

[ThomasW]

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=172379&postcount=189

[Jim Holtz]

Thanks guys,

The Titebond II iron method sounds like a plan. I'm assuming that the iron on method is to let it completely dry and then put the veneer on the speaker and then iron it on?

On another note, I purchased some raw veneer, without paper backing. Will this still work okay? It was the only way I could purchase a very nice and exotic veneer for a reasonable price.

Lastly, I heard of using bondo or I can mix Titebond II or III with saw dust to cover the imperfections on the speaker. Somehow we got the top off square so now there aren't gaps but just spots where the peices of wood are not flush. Whatever method is used will need to be able to soak or hold up against primer and paint application.

Nate

Hi Nate,

I like bondo for filling imperfections. It's easy to sand and it's durable.

I've attached the instructions from Oakwood Veneer company which explains step by step how to apply veneer using the iron on method. I used paper back and it worked great. I really can't answer your question about raw veneer.

good luck!

Jim

[Rolex]

I have used raw unbacked veneer with the iron on method. It worked once and didn't work once. The biggest issue is what species of wood you are using. Exotic wood with lots of wild grain will cause you problems. I tried it with curly maple, and it was a mess. Cracks like crazy. I used veneer softener first with the curly maple and still had major problems.

I also tried it with straight grained, thick cherry veneer that was in the raw form. I didn't have near the trouble with this. I did still have very slight cracking, but nothing like the culy maple.

Long story short, I would never recommend the iron on method using unbacked veneer. Especially to someone who hasn't used this method before.

[Bill Schneider]

I feel like a slow learner at times, so I take lots of notes and pictures to help me remember what I did right.

I researched the iron-on veneer method found in various online and printed sources. The information was compiled for my own use later on, and I put my steps and findings online so I could access it anywhere.

Here's the link to (yet another) series of steps for the iron-on veneer method - but specifically for loudspeaker cabinets. And it's lavishly illustrated for folks like me...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/audio/veneering.html

[NateTTU]

I have used raw unbacked veneer with the iron on method. It worked once and didn't work once. The biggest issue is what species of wood you are using. Exotic wood with lots of wild grain will cause you problems. I tried it with curly maple, and it was a mess. Cracks like crazy. I used veneer softener first with the curly maple and still had major problems.

I also tried it with straight grained, thick cherry veneer that was in the raw form. I didn't have near the trouble with this. I did still have very slight cracking, but nothing like the culy maple.

Long story short, I would never recommend the iron on method using unbacked veneer. Especially to someone who hasn't used this method before.

That doesn't sound very good. I'll give it a shot on some practice pieces anyways. I guess the good part about my asthetic deisgn is that the veneer will all be flat and not have to go around any edges whatsoever.

[fvoelling]

I feel like a slow learner at times, so I take lots of notes and pictures to help me remember what I did right.

I researched the iron-on veneer method found in various online and printed sources. The information was compiled for my own use later on, and I put my steps and findings online so I could access it anywhere.

Here's the link to (yet another) series of steps for the iron-on veneer method - but specifically for loudspeaker cabinets. And it's lavishly illustrated for folks like me...

http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~schneidw/...veneering.html

Thanks, Bill, very comprehensive and well illustrated! I may just have to try to veneer my Modula MTs once I get them done.

[MarcE]

i too would be interested in any opinions on using the raw unbacked veneers. I have a rather small project and have found veneer that will not require any joining. My project is a 3-way that is 13.5" H 14.75" D 7" W. There will not be any rounded corners. I figured this would be a good candidate for the unbacked veneer. The veneer I bought is 1/50" thick. I'd like to try the Heat Lock product that has been mentioned a few times here (not many results via 4 or 5 searches around here):

http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/iron-on-veneering.htm

Any advise would greatly be appreciated (horror stories are fine too, so I won't be too disappointed if I cannot get it to work). I think I may pick up some veneer softener and more or less follow the directions outlined at the Joe Woodworker website.

Thanks!

[Richard.C.]

What i do is have my local wood laminator make my venner to a speciific thickness, about 5mm. When the veener is at that thickness you won't have the problems you may get using the 0.8mm stuff. I apply a very genorous amount of PVA wood glue and clamp down using some MDF or ply as support for equal pressure across the veener. You won't need to worry about glue seeping through the veener or insuficiant contact or bond strengh. Its may prefered way, abit more expence, but hell of alot easier, less stress, and the jobs done perfect.

[stangbat]

I don't have anything to contribute to the current conversation, but today I veneered my ZDT3s using the PVA iron-on method. It went REALLY well. One thing I found that helped was I'd apply heat and pressure to the edges and corners with the iron, remove the iron and immediately press and hold a block against the area for 15-30 seconds. This ensured that the edges and corners were tight the first time through and minimized having to go back and reheat.

Thanks to everyone for the information. Some pics for you. The ZDT3 is not done, it is just mocked up. The other speaker is not stained and the drivers are not mounted. Still lots more left to do.

[MarcE]

thanks guys for your replies. Seems the only way to find out is to try myself I'll report back, assuming anyone is interested!

[Paul Ebert]

What i do is have my local wood laminator make my venner to a speciific thickness, about 5mm. When the veener is at that thickness you won't have the problems you may get using the 0.8mm stuff. I apply a very genorous amount of PVA wood glue and clamp down using some MDF or ply as support for equal pressure across the veener. You won't need to worry about glue seeping through the veener or insuficiant contact or bond strengh. Its may prefered way, abit more expence, but hell of alot easier, less stress, and the jobs done perfect.

If one were to go about looking for a local wood laminator, how would one do so? I've never heard of a wood laminator.

[Rolex]

What i do is have my local wood laminator make my venner to a speciific thickness, about 5mm. When the veener is at that thickness you won't have the problems you may get using the 0.8mm stuff. I apply a very genorous amount of PVA wood glue and clamp down using some MDF or ply as support for equal pressure across the veener. You won't need to worry about glue seeping through the veener or insuficiant contact or bond strengh. Its may prefered way, abit more expence, but hell of alot easier, less stress, and the jobs done perfect.

5mm?!?!?! If my math is not incorrect, you're talking a fat 3/16". I'm pretty sure that veneer is technically defined as 1/8" or less. You are basically talking about hardwood lamination. If you get into any exotic woods, that has got to be the expensive way to go!

[Richard.C.]

"veneer is technically defined as 1/8" or less" to be technical about it, yes i suppose your correct in pointing that out. It is hard wood lamination.


Hes a local guy to me in Sydney, makes solid wood table tops, bench tops, bar tops, and he builds speakers too(for himself). And it can get abit expensive too, no doubt about it, as i said, but my prefered way, and the result is much more pleasing. Do try it one day.

Richard

[Rolex]

I don't doubt that it is a preferred method. I'm sure the results are fantastic. I'm exploring curved cabinets right now. Seems as though that type of lamination would be challenging unless you get into steaming wood.

At any rate, I'd love to see the results.

[megamuel]

Has anyone used anything like this:

http://www.mcb-supplies.co.uk/ADHESIVES.htm

Looks quite good, any thoughts?

Sam.

[cacophonix]

Are there any instructions on how best to veneer roundovers? I've tried the iron on method and more often than not, there are a lot of cracks, and the glue doesn't stay put. This method works great when i veneer flat surfaces.

I use raw veneer mostly mainly because of the cost. To escape from having to go over roundovers, i have been flirting with the idea of solid hardwood edges, but this seem more work than veneering.

[Rolex]

You can use solid wood corners. Otherwise, there are two other solutions. One is use a backed veneer. Either wood or paper backed. I've had very good results with wood backed.

The second solution is to buy or borrow a vacuum veneer press. I used this recently on my curved cabinets with raw veneer.

Quite frankly, I'm surpised you have not had cracking issues even on flat surfaces if you are using unbacked veneer with the iron on method. When I used the iron on/unbacked method some cracks showed up right away, and some showed up months down the road, even after it had been well sealed.

[cacophonix]

Rolex - I've seen cracking with quilted bubinga raw veneer. The figure was just too wavy and unless i handled it very very carefully, it would crack while ironing. Plus someone on another board mentioned that the glue i was using (Titebond 2) might be a culprit in the sense that it tends to contract while drying. And this results in more problems while the veneer dries. So i switched to regular titebond, and it helped quite a bit. Plus i use veneer softner ...
I used walnut veneer without any issues except for when i tried to use it over a 3/4" roundover.

Btw, won't wood backed veneer be more problematic while bending over a tight radius? I thought paper backed ones are a lot more flexible. Backed veneers are just so much more expensive than the raw ones

I want to use ebony veneer for my latest project, and boy - are they expensive!!

[Rolex]

Ebony is very expensive. And, if you are going to use it raw, the tree never grows in large diameters, so you would be hard pressed to use it without any seaming. Which is a whole other set of issues. The wood backed veneer I had was very flexible. I'm sure I could have done 3/4" radius with it. I too use veneer softening. What I've found with the iron on method and raw veneer is that even if the veneer goes on without cracking, and I can get it finished without cracking, it does eventually crack. I built my brother a pair of speakers about a year ago. I used unbacked cherry veneer. They looked great when I was done. Natural in color with a real nice airless applied lacquer finish. I had a chance to see them again a few weeks ago. Cracks all over the place. (Large ones like 3-4 inches long, and anywhere from 1-5 cracks per side) I have since changed my method of application.

I have not, however heard the tip about titebond II. I have been using Extended open time titebond for my latest project. That gives me enough time to get the glue on, get the veneer in place, put it inside the vacuum press and suck all the air out before the glue sets up.

[MarcE]

yeah, almost there. When using the precision ports, how you you guys secure them? Just press fit, or ... Once I get these done, it's veneering time!

[tommy d.]

Has anyone used PSA(pressure sensitive adhesive) backed veneers? What do you think, is this something that will start lifting off in six months? I found it on this website: veneersupplies.com
Many of their veneer sheets have PSA available. I was specifically looking at cherry with the PSA to veneer on top of the rosenut vinyl covering my Paradigm studio 60's.
I figured if PSA works, a slight sanding and prepsol wipe down would prep the substrate vinyl. A roller would give the muscle for ensuring good contact.

[audioslave]

So….its been a while since I started this thread. The result of the initial inquiry was:
• Raw veneer is definitely harder to use…cracking and warping which are more of a factor the more highly figured the grain.
• Vacuum Press would be best but probably only useful to veneer the panels prior machining them to building the enclosure.
• Iron on has been used by several people with raw un-backed veneer with various results.
• Use veneer softener to try and minimize the cracking

I decided to take a shot at using raw un-backed veneer with the iron on method. I am planning on a LCR set of the NeoD three way. The plan is for a center and two floorstanding versions for the left and right. I’m starting with the center first, since it will be the least visible…i.e. in the component rack, or on top of the tv.

The first issue was to find the veneer. I started looking for veneer that would have dimensions that were conducive to the enclosure dimensions. Took quite some time to find a highly figured veneer for a reasonable price. However none of them had dimensions large enough to veneer the floor standers without seams in the middle of the panels. So I decided that I might as well learn how to veneer with seams right away. That would also allow for bookmatching on the baffles….which wud be purdy. :T

I chose to use two different veneers, one dark one for the baffles, top and bottom with a light veneer for the sides. I found some dark highly figured Imbuya for the baffles and Maple Pomel for the sides. To make my life even more difficult the Imbuya would wrap around on to the sides an inch or so to boarder the maple. Oh and while were at it I decided to cut small facets in the baffle to practice that too! :E

Soooo….after much swearing and consternation I have come to the realization that the secret to fine veneering is learning how to hide the inevitable flaws. 8O Getting really tight seams using the iron on method is not simple. The veneer tends to shrink and creep under the heat. I tried taping the seams prior to ironing. Worked OK with the imbuya, which is a stiffer (brittle) veneer. It was virtually impossible to tape the seams on the maple. The moisture of the glue and softener curled and wrinkled the maple dramatically. The veneer stayed reasonably pliable after the glue and softener. However forget lining up your carefully trimmed piece along the seam. So what I ended up with is terrible gaps in the maple and livable gaps with the imbuya.

The other big issue was with cracking while ironing on the maple. Since the maple was wrinkled and curled, the process of flattening it out with the iron was quite a bit more stress than the veneer could handle due to wavy figure. The cracking would start at the edges as the curl was taken out in the middle. I was using the iron in the middle and working my way out to prevent bubbles…etc. Of course I did this cross the grain…..bad idea…however that seemed logical at the time to get a tight seam at the front of the panel.

So after I really screwed up the bottom of the center channel I decided to try a different method on the top. I cut the veneer with a nice edge along what would be the front seam with the imbuya and left the ends longer than was required. I placed a sheet of paper under the edges where I didn’t what the veneer with the hope that the veneer wouldn’t stick there. I worked well. I then trimmed the edges with a veneer saw and straight edge. The veneer still cracked a bit but the cracks were trimmed out. When I do it again I will align one edge, iron parallel to the grain starting at the good edge, use the paper to mask off the areas where the veneer will be trimmed, then trim to fit. Should work well for table tops as well, I need to turn out some furniture to keep the spouse happy! :W

The imbuya was much more tolerant of the ironing, however it was tough to get the seams tight. They will have to be filled to hide them. I’ll report back later on how that goes. The facets were not much of an issue. The imbuya is pretty brittle so I had problems with tearout and flaking along the edges.

The driver holes were a challenge since I did not read the construction thread carefully enough. I was going to try to use a rabetting bit to cut out the flange recesses. That way I could use the same bit to trim the veneer….worked great for the RS52. The HIVI has a ¾” wide flange….guess what! No one makes a ¾ in rabetting bit (at least not at the local Rockler….etc). So I had to trim out the veneer with a pen knife which was a major PITA. If you let the wall of the flange recess guide the tip of the pen knife and only cut downward with respect to the top of the veneer you should get acceptable results. If you cut on the upstroke you get tearout from the brittle veneer when cutting cross grain. The blade of the pen knife is flexible enough to bend and follow the curve of the flange recess.

To make a long story longer…at a later date. I’ll report back on the filling and finishing process. I have attached a few photos. Thankfully the camera on my phone hides a multitude of sins. I’ll get some decent pics of the seams and the results of the filling and finishing as it progresses.

Thanks to every one for there input. I hope my experiences will help others In there quest for speakers that look as good as they sound.

[Martyn]

Gosh, you really don't do things by halves! I'm sure you're going to succeed here, but at those times when things aren't going your way, remember that if all else fails, you can always paint it!