Seas ER18 design thread

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  • jkrutke
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2005
    • 590

    Seas ER18 design thread

    I thought I'd start this thread to answer any questions about the SR71 design I just did. I also welcome anyone else to discuss their own usage of the ER18 in their designs. Of course, I'd prefer to hear from people who actually used the woofer rather than those just toying with simulations and making guesses at what actually sounds good.

    Knowing the forum rules, I got permission from Thomas to discuss this design. It is a kit, but the difference is that I was not paid to do the design and I don't get a cut of any profits from kits sold at Madisound. It's completely non-profit for me. As such, I am allowed to have a discussion about it. I'll participate here for a week or two to answer questions, maybe clarify some things, and flesh out the design info on the web page if needed.

    I already had the design done when I was having a chat with Madisound about some other stuff. The kit was just basically a way for people to round up the parts with one click rather than hunt for everything I mention in the web page. When I found out that they would give a 10% discount on the parts, that sealed the deal since I'm all for saving people money.

    The coil upgrade option was their idea. They know my standing on high end crossover components, but they also have a good grasp on what their customers want to buy. Some people fear steel laminate cores, so I let it go. The Clarity SA cap on the tweeter is what they call a mid-priced cap. Though I generally use the Bennic Polys, I let that go also since they aren't too expensive. It's certainly not going to break the bank like a Mundorf or Hovland. Anyway, let's not waste this discussion on crossover parts.

    To get things rolling with a question I saw elsewhere:
    Originally posted by peter_m
    John, the reduced BSC version, how many db is it? Is it more suitable for a Floor-stander? What volume/freq would you pick for a floor stander since you would not be limited to the Madisound 14L enclosure?
    The reduced BSC version has roughly 3-4 dB of BSC. It wouldn't make much difference in the overall tonal balance if you converted to a tower. I would only recommend the reduced BSC version for those with poor placement options. I built that version and the bass pretty much sounded too lean in any room I put it in.

    When I was going through the early crossover iterations on this design, the primary woofer inductor ranged from 2.2 - 2.5 mH simply because that's what ended up in most of the other 7" woofer designs I've done. That just didn't work in this design because the tonal balance was too lean. I had some speculation into that noted somewhere in the design pages.

    If not tied into a Madisound enclosure, I'd probably go 15-16 liters, and tune it to 40-42Hz.
    Zaph|Audio
  • mazurek
    Senior Member
    • Mar 2006
    • 204

    #2
    I have a point to make regarding reduced BSC versions. I have been perfecting my active crossover / amplifier package for quite a while. My roommate has been counseling me that people like options, and there should be knobs to play with. So I am putting in a calibrated bass level knob to adjust for BSC/boundary placement. The thing is though that during actual testing, I have found that placing the speakers near walls results in interference so that the frequency response gets a bit erratic, and just shifting BSC compensation doesn't make the frequency response any prettier. If only we could mount huge speakers in wall studio style.

    Comment

    • peter_m
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2007
      • 227

      #3
      Hi John,
      I know you put allot of time into these designs and I am sorry to hear you won't get anything in exchange for your work. Why do you do it then? Also wondering what it is you do for a day job?

      If I build a floor stander at 18L and 43hz, am I straying too far from the design and risk getting surprises and forfeit getting any advice in here? Don't ask me why I chose 18/43, it just looked good to me in WINisd

      While tuning the box is there a "trick of the trade" to test and see if I hit my target frequency without any special equipment?

      Also when calculating the MDF measurements for cutting, how do you account for the volume that the driver occupies? Do you also take into consideration the volume of the foam padding? Do you take into account the volume occupied by the port?

      Would making a slightly larger diameter port and then pad the inside of the port help reduce the quantity of higher frequencies escaping?

      Peter

      Comment

      • jkrutke
        Senior Member
        • Dec 2005
        • 590

        #4
        I have a point to make regarding reduced BSC versions. I have been perfecting my active crossover / amplifier package for quite a while. My roommate has been counseling me that people like options, and there should be knobs to play with. So I am putting in a calibrated bass level knob to adjust for BSC/boundary placement. The thing is though that during actual testing, I have found that placing the speakers near walls results in interference so that the frequency response gets a bit erratic, and just shifting BSC compensation doesn't make the frequency response any prettier. If only we could mount huge speakers in wall studio style.
        Yup. Ideally, it's not optimal for wall mounted speakers to have a rectangular shape. In the one wall-mount specific design on my site, there's a reason it had the slanted sides - it minimized the repeating peak-dip combo that happens as the reflection goes out of phase and in phase across the frequency range. Nothing is going to completely eliminate that except for going with an in-wall design. It kind of makes all other design issues look minor. I intend to do another wall-mounted design sometime, something bigger.
        Zaph|Audio

        Comment

        • jkrutke
          Senior Member
          • Dec 2005
          • 590

          #5
          Originally posted by peter_m
          Hi John,
          I know you put allot of time into these designs and I am sorry to hear you won't get anything in exchange for your work. Why do you do it then? Also wondering what it is you do for a day job?
          I don't know why I do it. Originally, I just put my designs on a web page so I could refer back to them while I was at work or on the road. Everything I do is generally for selfish reasons. My designs are created to impress only myself. Likewise, I test drivers so I personally can find the good ones. But I'm not completely evil and self centered, so I occasionally share my info.

          I am a mechanical engineer in the high speed printing industry. It pays the bills for now.

          If I build a floor stander at 18L and 43hz, am I straying too far from the design and risk getting surprises and forfeit getting any advice in here? Don't ask me why I chose 18/43, it just looked good to me in WINisd

          While tuning the box is there a "trick of the trade" to test and see if I hit my target frequency without any special equipment?
          Nah, just be prepared to tweak the tuning in-room to your liking. Careful following the advice of WinISD, the lowest anechoic F3 is rarely the best choice in-room. Most designs seem to work best with the low end tapered off a bit, depending on the size of the room and where the biggest node is. No real tricks, just be prepared to tweak. What worked for me may not work for everyone. Don't even pick a target, just lengthen and shorten the port by ear.

          Also when calculating the MDF measurements for cutting, how do you account for the volume that the driver occupies? Do you also take into consideration the volume of the foam padding? Do you take into account the volume occupied by the port?

          Would making a slightly larger diameter port and then pad the inside of the port help reduce the quantity of higher frequencies escaping?
          I used to get real anal when calculating volume, but not anymore. It's not that critical. I might subtract the volume of 2 cylinders and a cone - The magnet, the port and the driver's cone. I then call it close enough. Foam padding usually increases the apparent volume and lowers the tuning frequency a bit, as much as 2% with whispermat.

          Padding inside the port? Hmmm, you're on your own with that one, I've never tried it.
          Zaph|Audio

          Comment

          • ---k---
            Ultra Senior Member
            • Nov 2005
            • 5204

            #6
            ooooh, I don't think we want to go there.
            - Ryan

            CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
            CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
            CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

            Comment

            • Deward Hastings
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2006
              • 170

              #7
              > the repeating peak-dip combo that happens as the reflection goes out of phase and in phase across the frequency range. Nothing is going to completely eliminate that except for going with an in-wall design

              I've had modest success reducing the ripple by placing a 2 ft square pad of "rigid" fiberglass (rock wool, actually) behind the speaker, and it seems to work even better as a collar moved out from the wall a bit. With the right fabric "wrapper" it can be made not-too-ugly. I've used it in "bookshelf" placements too, both on the back and under each shelf (in the space the speaker is in, and the shelf above and below as well, to reduce cavity resonances). The improvement can be substantial . . .

              Comment

              • StevenF
                Junior Member
                • Dec 2007
                • 1

                #8
                Wall Mounted

                The Seas ER18RNX seems like a good match for in wall mounting since the higher frequencies are louder than the low frequencies. It seems like this would be more efficient and use a smaller woofer inductor and smaller tweeter resistor. Would somebody calculate the crossover for this?

                Comment

                • peter_m
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2007
                  • 227

                  #9
                  While I am making a larger volume enclosure, can I just make the enclosure deeper or is it better to just make it taller? If I make it deeper, it would leave more room for a longer port and allow experimenting with a lower tuning... but I am worried about altering the box geometry and screwing with the golden ratio if you use it?

                  Also I noticed you never put any kind of padding on the back of the baffle. If one would keep the padding away from the edge of the woofer, would it be a good thing? Or maybe just in the top of the baffle, surrounding the tweeter?

                  Mechanical engineer eh? Sounds like you have an unfair advantage over us but then again you do share allot! :T

                  EDIT: Holly crap, I just remembered this: http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/ekta_bjoern.htm Would this shape (curved sides and narrower rear panel) be worth the effort? What is the benefit of curved cabinets like this?
                  Last edited by peter_m; 03 December 2007, 12:55 Monday.

                  Comment

                  • Bylie
                    Junior Member
                    • Dec 2007
                    • 3

                    #10
                    Hi I just registered here because I'm very interested in Zaph's SR71 design using the ER18.

                    This is where it's at : I currently have a build floorstander enclosure of 16 liters tuned to approx 40Hz (7" long and 2" diameter brpipe) and with the same bafflewidth as Zaph's SR71, even the tweeter is centered and has the same location as in the SR71 design. The only problem is that I've got a Seas 27TBFCG as tweeter. What would it take in terms of crossoverchanges to the SR71 design to build me a nice sounding speaker?

                    Maybe the master himself can shed some light on this... ;x(

                    Comment

                    • jeff_free69
                      Member
                      • Dec 2007
                      • 74

                      #11
                      I'm also very excited to see a one-stop shop for such a high quality project like the SR71.

                      I'm really interested in an alternative to recording studio nearfiled monitors. Are these appropriate for such applications? typically we work within a 3-4 ft triangle, with the monitors toe-ed in. (I read that the SR71s are designed for straight ahead, off-axis placement, is this an issue?)

                      Any other recommendations? Examples of the speakers I'm referring to would be Dynaudio BM6 mkii, or Adam 7.

                      Comment

                      • cjd
                        Ultra Senior Member
                        • Dec 2004
                        • 5570

                        #12
                        Well, Zaph has specifically implemented a "fix" for the top-end rise in the 27TDFC, so it definitely wouldn't be a straight drop-in. He might be able to accomodate that though. Or not.

                        C
                        diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                        Comment

                        • Bylie
                          Junior Member
                          • Dec 2007
                          • 3

                          #13
                          Originally posted by cjd
                          Well, Zaph has specifically implemented a "fix" for the top-end rise in the 27TDFC, so it definitely wouldn't be a straight drop-in. He might be able to accomodate that though. Or not.

                          C
                          In another forum they suggested to leave the "fix" out and to use a larger pad resistor (5ohm) to implement the Seas 27TBFCG, but I'd rather hear it from the man himself because I really want to be sure.

                          Comment

                          • cjd
                            Ultra Senior Member
                            • Dec 2004
                            • 5570

                            #14
                            I've also worked with a fix for the TDFC (different from Zaph's) and it was not something you could leave out and have work right at all. Also, given the care given to voicing I'm really not sure this is anything but a request for a new design from the ground up.

                            C
                            diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                            Comment

                            • Bylie
                              Junior Member
                              • Dec 2007
                              • 3

                              #15
                              Originally posted by cjd
                              I've also worked with a fix for the TDFC (different from Zaph's) and it was not something you could leave out and have work right at all. Also, given the care given to voicing I'm really not sure this is anything but a request for a new design from the ground up.

                              C
                              I've only got some basic knowledge about the workings of crossovers. But, if I look at it logically, the basic response curves from both the 27TBFCG and the 27TDFC are almost identical except for a little higher sensitivity of the 27TBFCG (may be fixed by larger padding resistor) and the topoctave rise which the 27TBFCG doesn't have, on the contrary even (which maybe could be fixed by leaving the topoctave response shaping network out). I thought it would not be that much of a problem because of large similarities between those two tweeters but then again, as I said, I've only got a basic crossover knowledge so maybe I'm totally wrong on this one ops: .

                              Comment

                              • Maximiliano
                                Member
                                • Sep 2007
                                • 58

                                #16
                                According to Zaph's tweeter mishmash measurements, the difference between TDFC and TBFCG is not only in their sensitivity, but also in their lower rolloff in the 1 k to 3 kHz range. In fact, the TDFC seems a little more sensitive in the 1 k to 2 kHz range. To compensate this, I think you might need a different cap or shunt inductor value. But if you're not that obssessive in fine details, I think you'll be alright by dropping in the TBFCG with the shelving components removed (as Zaph suggested in one of the Options) and the padding resistor replaced.

                                Max

                                Comment

                                • DearS
                                  Member
                                  • Jul 2005
                                  • 55

                                  #17
                                  Man, I've been pretty scared to start a big-ish DIY project. I've already assembled a BR1 kit. This seems about the same in difficulty (atleast now). Although I need to make/be sure. I can probably do this just around as easily. Thank you Zaph and thank you DIY community.
                                  http://joy2meu.com/

                                  Comment

                                  • Dean100
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Jan 2007
                                    • 140

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by DearS
                                    Man, I've been pretty scared to start a big-ish DIY project. I've already assembled a BR1 kit. This seems about the same in difficulty (atleast now). Although I need to make/be sure. I can probably do this just around as easily. Thank you Zaph and thank you DIY community.
                                    If you buy the full kit from Madisound, this will actually be easier than assembling the BR1 kit from Parts Express. It appears that the Seas ER18 kit from Madisound comes with the crossover full assembled. Anyone who has thought about getting into DIY speakers but was concerned with crossover assembly, cabinet building etc. should give this kit serious consideration. I am confident that for the money you spend, you couldn't touch these in the commercial speaker world unless you spent three times the amount of money or more.

                                    Yes, thank you Zaph and to the rest of the DIY community here at HTG for the giving of your time and knowledge.

                                    Comment

                                    • cjd
                                      Ultra Senior Member
                                      • Dec 2004
                                      • 5570

                                      #19
                                      I had missed the section where Zaph discusses options. As such, a change in padding and removal of the contouring network may produce reasonably acceptable results - the T*FC drivers are nearly interchangeable. Zaph might not be fully satisfied, but being the perfectionist he is...

                                      C
                                      diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                      Comment

                                      • peter_m
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Sep 2007
                                        • 227

                                        #20
                                        I've found some coils with a lower DCR then the one specified in the crossover schematic. For L2 I found a DCR of 0.154,and for L7 I found a DCR of 0.131 . Is that a problem?

                                        Also has anyone dealt with Zalytron? Good experience?

                                        Peter

                                        Comment

                                        • cjd
                                          Ultra Senior Member
                                          • Dec 2004
                                          • 5570

                                          #21
                                          lower? It'll have the opposite result of those with higher impedance - a little more energy in the mid-bass.

                                          C
                                          diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                          Comment

                                          • jkrutke
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Dec 2005
                                            • 590

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Deward Hastings
                                            I've had modest success reducing the ripple by placing a 2 ft square pad of "rigid" fiberglass (rock wool, actually) behind the speaker, and it seems to work even better as a collar moved out from the wall a bit. With the right fabric "wrapper" it can be made not-too-ugly. I've used it in "bookshelf" placements too, both on the back and under each shelf (in the space the speaker is in, and the shelf above and below as well, to reduce cavity resonances). The improvement can be substantial . . .
                                            Great idea, I'll have to toy with that sometime. I once took a measurement with a speaker right up against one of my 2X4 4 inch acoustic panels and that helped too. That's certainly not high on the wife acceptance factor though. I suppose the trick is to do it small but effective.

                                            Originally posted by StevenF
                                            The Seas ER18RNX seems like a good match for in wall mounting since the higher frequencies are louder than the low frequencies. It seems like this would be more efficient and use a smaller woofer inductor and smaller tweeter resistor. Would somebody calculate the crossover for this?
                                            See the comments I made above about wall mounting. There is a very nice wall mounted speaker in my future. I recall a thread a while ago about filling a missing niche in speaker designs - I believe that niche is a very high end wall mounted system. I can guarantee it won't be a rectangular box because of the unavoidable issues discussed above.

                                            Originally posted by peter_m
                                            While I am making a larger volume enclosure, can I just make the enclosure deeper or is it better to just make it taller? If I make it deeper, it would leave more room for a longer port and allow experimenting with a lower tuning... but I am worried about altering the box geometry and screwing with the golden ratio if you use it?

                                            Also I noticed you never put any kind of padding on the back of the baffle. If one would keep the padding away from the edge of the woofer, would it be a good thing? Or maybe just in the top of the baffle, surrounding the tweeter?

                                            http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/ekta_bjoern.htm Would this shape (curved sides and narrower rear panel) be worth the effort? What is the benefit of curved cabinets like this?
                                            Probably deeper, you have the right idea with a longer port. Just be sure to keep the baffle geometry the same relative to the top. Well, you can offset the tweeter if you want, I have that option shown on the page also. (I built and tested both) I've never put any damping on the baffle back, I'm not sure it's needed. This idea is to kill the first reflection, and there can't be a first reflection on a baffle since the driver is right on that plane.

                                            A shape like that one shown at Troels' better be worth the effort, I have something like it made out of plywood layers sitting out in my garage right now. Of course I'll have pictures when it's ready. It's essentially a tapered closed end teardrop shape enclosure based on B&W Nautilus design principles.

                                            Originally posted by jeff_free69
                                            I'm really interested in an alternative to recording studio nearfiled monitors. Are these appropriate for such applications? typically we work within a 3-4 ft triangle, with the monitors toe-ed in. (I read that the SR71s are designed for straight ahead, off-axis placement, is this an issue?)
                                            Tough call, I don't really know, but I doubt it. I think I'd recommend my L18 design instead. Some work has been done on that design specifically for near field. There is a custom crossover and the port needs to mount on the front below the woofer. There have been a few people who built that for use in a recording studio. If you want that crossover, I'll email it to you.

                                            Originally posted by peter_m
                                            I've found some coils with a lower DCR then the one specified in the crossover schematic. For L2 I found a DCR of 0.154,and for L7 I found a DCR of 0.131 . Is that a problem?

                                            Also has anyone dealt with Zalytron? Good experience?
                                            This design is relatively insensitive to inductor DCR. Whatever you find, I wouldn't worry about it. Even if you have a higher DCR on the woofer coil, there's not as much effect there.

                                            My eyes have had a poor experience with the Zalytron web site. Other than that, I haven't ordered from them in 15 years.


                                            I'll be unavailable for a bit after this coming Thursday but I'll take one more stop at this thread to see what's up before I disappear for a while.
                                            Zaph|Audio

                                            Comment

                                            • peter_m
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Sep 2007
                                              • 227

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by jkrutke
                                              Great idea, I'll have to toy with that sometime. I once took a measurement with a speaker right up against one of my 2X4 4 inch acoustic panels and that helped too. That's certainly not high on the wife acceptance factor though. I suppose the trick is to do it small but effective.
                                              If I understand correctly, it's just a panel of rigid glass wool standing against the rear wall, just behind the speaker?

                                              Originally posted by jkrutke
                                              A shape like that one shown at Troels' better be worth the effort, I have something like it made out of plywood layers sitting out in my garage right now. Of course I'll have pictures when it's ready. It's essentially a tapered closed end teardrop shape enclosure based on B&W Nautilus design principles.
                                              Does it need a specific shape/curvature to be effective?

                                              Also on the woofer coil, is an air core with a slightly higher DCR better then a metal core? Some people look down on metal cores...

                                              Comment

                                              • Maximiliano
                                                Member
                                                • Sep 2007
                                                • 58

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by jkrutke
                                                See the comments I made above about wall mounting. There is a very nice wall mounted speaker in my future. I recall a thread a while ago about filling a missing niche in speaker designs - I believe that niche is a very high end wall mounted system. I can guarantee it won't be a rectangular box because of the unavoidable issues discussed above.
                                                I don't think he meant "on-wall" mount, but "in-wall" mount which is not prone to the null in the midrange.

                                                Comment

                                                • Deward Hastings
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Dec 2006
                                                  • 170

                                                  #25
                                                  > I once took a measurement with a speaker right up against one of my 2X4 4 inch acoustic panels

                                                  That's the idea. Make it anechoic vis. the rear (diffracted) wave so there's no reflection/cancellation. Then apply full BSC to make the 2Pi radiation flat. It's an option where one cannot recess the speaker into the wall and make the wall an infinite baffle (thus needing no BSC).

                                                  An enclosure that tapers into the wall is another option . . . how big would it have to be to avoid step diffraction ? ? ?

                                                  Comment

                                                  • liasom
                                                    Member
                                                    • Jun 2007
                                                    • 36

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by jkrutke
                                                    Tough call, I don't really know, but I doubt it. I think I'd recommend my L18 design instead. Some work has been done on that design specifically for near field. There is a custom crossover and the port needs to mount on the front below the woofer. There have been a few people who built that for use in a recording studio. If you want that crossover, I'll email it to you.
                                                    Zaph, There's a new studio space coming in my future with a need for near field placement so I'd like to have that L18 near field crossover too. Thanks!
                                                    Mike
                                                    "Twelve." --Dr. Nikolai Zubritsky

                                                    Comment

                                                    • cjd
                                                      Ultra Senior Member
                                                      • Dec 2004
                                                      • 5570

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by jkrutke
                                                      I recall a thread a while ago about filling a missing niche in speaker designs - I believe that niche is a very high end wall mounted system. I can guarantee it won't be a rectangular box because of the unavoidable issues discussed above.
                                                      Kinda funny - I'm reworking my HT and it will be all in-walls now. Not super high end, but not low end. Just another variant of stuff I've already done really. Only thing I have to remember is that just because I have space behind my front wall for deeper boxes, not everyone will.

                                                      Slightly different than on-wall of course. Er. I guess slightly more than slightly.

                                                      C
                                                      diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                                      Comment

                                                      • brian.goodman
                                                        Junior Member
                                                        • Dec 2007
                                                        • 1

                                                        #28
                                                        Nearfield L18 Design & ER18 Sealed

                                                        John,

                                                        I would like to take you up on your offer above to jeff_free69 to email the nearfield version of the L18 design. I'm sure it would be a great addition to the zaphaudio site if you'd prefer just to post it there.

                                                        You sometimes mention sealed versions of your designs but left out any mention of it in this design. Is the ER18 a design that lends itself to a sealed alignment?

                                                        Just out of curiosity, have you built a sealed and vented version of the same design, and how would you characterize the differences?

                                                        Thank you for your continued contribution to the DIY community.

                                                        Regards,

                                                        Brian

                                                        Comment

                                                        • ktkhuong
                                                          Junior Member
                                                          • Dec 2007
                                                          • 1

                                                          #29
                                                          John,

                                                          It looks like your SR71 system has a smaller-diameter roundover on the front baffle than is the norm in your designs, including the ones using Parts Express cabinets. If this is indeed the case with the Madisound cabinet, do you think this affects diffraction much? What are your impressions of this cabinet versus the usual PE boxes?

                                                          Interestingly, Madisound's photos of the Maple and Cherry versions seem to indicate no roundover (I can't discern a front panel at all). I don't think this is the case, though. Can anyone confirm?

                                                          Thanks for this wonderful design. I love the name, too.

                                                          Comment

                                                          • ThomasW
                                                            Moderator Emeritus
                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                            • 10933

                                                            #30
                                                            People please, let's keep this thread on topic.

                                                            N00b questions genric to speaker design (damping, cabinet shape, etc.), should go in personal build threads.

                                                            Max, et all, I've moved the nearfield questions to a dedicated thread...

                                                            IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                            "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                            Comment

                                                            • jkrutke
                                                              Senior Member
                                                              • Dec 2005
                                                              • 590

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by liasom
                                                              Zaph, There's a new studio space coming in my future with a need for near field placement so I'd like to have that L18 near field crossover too. Thanks!
                                                              Posted here. Discuss amongst yourselves there. Note that I don't intend to do the same thing with the SR71 design. Lack of time, sorry.

                                                              Originally posted by ktkhuong
                                                              It looks like your SR71 system has a smaller-diameter roundover on the front baffle than is the norm in your designs, including the ones using Parts Express cabinets. If this is indeed the case with the Madisound cabinet, do you think this affects diffraction much? What are your impressions of this cabinet versus the usual PE boxes?

                                                              Interestingly, Madisound's photos of the Maple and Cherry versions seem to indicate no roundover (I can't discern a front panel at all). I don't think this is the case, though. Can anyone confirm?
                                                              The diffraction in the Madisound cabinet is a bit worse than the PE cabinet. If you are building your own cabinets and you can do a bigger roundover than 1/4", you should do it. It will result in a tiny bit smoother response. The response curves are with the Madisound cabinet, so what you see is what you get with a 1/4" roundover.

                                                              The finish on the Madisound boxes is better than the veneered PE boxes. It's a higher level of fit and finish all around and the veneers are nicely figured. PE veneers are just kind of blah. The PE gloss black enclosures are something else however. Beautiful. Have you guys seen those new Thor cabinets at Madisound? Nice veneers.

                                                              There was another version of the 14 liter cabinet. I've never seen one of those up close so I can't comment on it, but the baffle is obviously different.

                                                              On another note, I'm not going to recommend sealed with the SR71 design. I believe I may have listed it as an option with the L18 system, but in hindsight I probably should not have. Woofers with a Qts in the .3 range are destined to only work well in vented boxes.

                                                              Thanks for the comments and input everyone. I'm off to try getting my blog updated before this weekend.
                                                              Zaph|Audio

                                                              Comment

                                                              • jeff_free69
                                                                Member
                                                                • Dec 2007
                                                                • 74

                                                                #32
                                                                Here comes santa...

                                                                .. and i see an SR71 kit in his bag, along with some precut templates (so i don't have to worry about makin it look pretty).

                                                                I will try them as nearfiled monitors in my studio - (that already spawned another thread, but was too inconclusive to go with modified aluminum design)
                                                                But I don't see how i can go wrong with this; even if i don't end up using them as the mains, they can be the sanity-checkers.

                                                                Looks like i see a madisound 12" sub in there too! ( since i already have a 4 cuft selaed cab and this studio is heavily treated with bass traps..)

                                                                Comment

                                                                • benchtester
                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                  • Sep 2007
                                                                  • 213

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by jkrutke
                                                                  Posted here.


                                                                  On another note, I'm not going to recommend sealed with the SR71 design. I believe I may have listed it as an option with the L18 system, but in hindsight I probably should not have. Woofers with a Qts in the .3 range are destined to only work well in vented boxes.
                                                                  Since sealed is not recommended for this woofer, could the same result be achieved with an aperiodic vent?

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • SQconstable
                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                    • Mar 2005
                                                                    • 141

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by jeff_free69
                                                                    .. and i see an SR71 kit in his bag
                                                                    I wish! Madisound is sold out of those ER18's! The wife feels bad because this was the xmas gift for me and after placing the order, Madisound says no more ER18's. UGH.

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • Jed
                                                                      Ultra Senior Member
                                                                      • Apr 2005
                                                                      • 3621

                                                                      #35
                                                                      there are other suppliers of Seas drivers such as meniscusaudio.com and solen.ca

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • SQconstable
                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                        • Mar 2005
                                                                        • 141

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Meniscusaudio doesn't have the ER18RNX in their downloadable catalog: http://www.meniscusaudio.com/Catalog.pdf

                                                                        I don't want to order from Canada (Solen.ca) and they don't have a way for you to order online anyhow.

                                                                        Looks like Madisound is really the only USA distributor that carries this woofer.

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • peter_m
                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                          • Sep 2007
                                                                          • 227

                                                                          #37
                                                                          zalytron.com

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • SQconstable
                                                                            Senior Member
                                                                            • Mar 2005
                                                                            • 141

                                                                            #38
                                                                            nope.. they only ones they have close are:

                                                                            CA18RNX
                                                                            L18RNX/P

                                                                            I appreciate the help thus far. If I can find these in the USA, Xmas will be saved! Obviously I'm not going to get around to messing with the project until after the holidays so maybe this is a blessing in disguise and I'm supposed to find something better.
                                                                            Hmm I wish PE had this woofer.

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • Habs4life
                                                                              Member
                                                                              • Apr 2006
                                                                              • 85

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by SQconstable

                                                                              I don't want to order from Canada (Solen.ca) and they don't have a way for you to order online anyhow.
                                                                              Looks like Solen is your only choice.If you send them an email of what you want they will reply with a confirmation.They are a good company to deal with.You may of course have to pay a brokerage or dutie fee to get them across the border.

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • SQconstable
                                                                                Senior Member
                                                                                • Mar 2005
                                                                                • 141

                                                                                #40
                                                                                I wonder if you have to exchange to Canadian currency. If so, that's another reason to not do biz, esp with our weaker dollar. I'll just have to see what's up with Madisound.. maybe will have to wait it out and hope they come before the spring. PE should at least start carrying them. From what it looks like, when Zaph mentions certain speakers, they start selling. I'm trying to get that SR71 kit from Madisound so this whole incomplete kit thing is just rediculousssssssssssss. I could just have them credit me for the value of the two woofers and substitute two different ones, but that defeats the whole purpose of the "kit".

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • Jed
                                                                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                                                                  • Apr 2005
                                                                                  • 3621

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by SQconstable
                                                                                  Meniscusaudio doesn't have the ER18RNX in their downloadable catalog: http://www.meniscusaudio.com/Catalog.pdf

                                                                                  I don't want to order from Canada (Solen.ca) and they don't have a way for you to order online anyhow.

                                                                                  Looks like Madisound is really the only USA distributor that carries this woofer.

                                                                                  Just email or call Meniscus, they probably didn't update their catalog. They accept paypal as well. As for Solen, I've done business with them many times. You can see pricing in the "international" pricing US dollar pdf. I bet both have the ER18RNX. If you go with Solen make sure you have them ship USPS, since UPS has some ripoff brokerage 3rd party service and USPS doesn't.

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • Jed
                                                                                    Ultra Senior Member
                                                                                    • Apr 2005
                                                                                    • 3621

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    I've done business with these guys as well:




                                                                                    Jed

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • peter_m
                                                                                      Senior Member
                                                                                      • Sep 2007
                                                                                      • 227

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      You should email Zalytron. They gave me the best price for the 4 drivers... 2 tweeters and 2 woofers. The website seams to be out of date so call or e-mail. If you order across the border, USPS or CanadaPost are the best for brokerage. UPS and FedEx can charge you brokerage service fees that are sometimes more then the taxes and duties... not a fair deal for the purchaser and it can be confusing as some fo they shipping products include the brokerage and some don't... they like to keep us confused!

                                                                                      Merry christmas!

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • LNeilB
                                                                                        Member
                                                                                        • Jun 2005
                                                                                        • 32

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Here is the big question...

                                                                                        Is it really a big deal to get new baffles cut for the PE boxes I already have?

                                                                                        What are the reals sonic risks involved, considering how close the PE and MAD baffles are in size...

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • jeff_free69
                                                                                          Member
                                                                                          • Dec 2007
                                                                                          • 74

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          too much champagne ?

                                                                                          santa dropped off the kit and i spent the last couple of days making the cabinets. (Boy do I wish it were warm enough to drag the table saw into the backyard and avoid that fine coating of MDF dust now coating the basement

                                                                                          They're actually looking pretty good - But there was one miscalculation though (too much champagne ? ops:

                                                                                          I had the dimensions as being 11" deep; but when I got back online and double-checked, that should have included the front baffle AND grill. But I didn't, so therefore my internal volume is too big.
                                                                                          ..not a big hairy deal since i can always double up on the interior walls to reduce the volume appropriately, and make it that much more solid.

                                                                                          OR : Is an alternate tuning still feasible here? How do i figure out how to adjust the port? i figure my total inner volume is now about 1000 cu-in / 16.5L (not counting port or speakers )

                                                                                          Comment

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