Dayton Lineup Maxx?

[Brian Bunge]

I've been contemplating doing a version of the Lineup Maxx using 4 Dayton RS180's instead of the TB 5" subs. I think that we could be cleaner bass output going this route, although there may be some issues with cabinet volume. The smallest I think we can feasibly go is 50L tuned to 40Hz. This gives me roughly 47"H x 9"W x 14" deep, assuming 3/4" material and a 1.5" thick baffle. This gives 65L internally without bracing and whatever size we need for the TB W4-1337's. Jed will have to chime in with what volume they require sealed.

Jed has also stated he'd prefer with a slightly slimmer cabinet (8-8.5") and maybe even different tweeters. Hell, I'm even thinking about possibly using the RS52 mid so that there is no need for a mid enclosure at all.

If anyone has any interest in this project please let me know. If there are enough people interested I'll contact PE and see what kind of discount they will give me for a large order of RS180's. I get a decent discount already but if I order 20-30 or more maybe we could get them even cheaper.

[cjd]

I'd not likely be building for myself but you know I'm curious.

One interesting possibility I see here (and I think we've briefly talked about this) would be to swap in the 4" T-B Bamboo driver and some paper cone 7" drivers (though it would definitely bump up the price) for those folks that like their "warm paper sound"

Also, I may still be using RS180's in my HT setup so would be interested in such a group deal regardless. And I *might* also be interested in building a version or two of the project you're talking about too.

C

[Brian Bunge]

Yes, I really like the sound of the Bamboo TB 4's a lot. Although I'm told that the titanium version is even nicer in the midrange.

What would really be cool is a nice, smooth paper cone 5" pro sound driver and a fairly high efficiency tweeter to match. Maybe that new waveguide loaded Seas unit or something such as that. Just thinking of ways to keep efficiency up.

Oh, and I'll model up those Peerless Exclusive 7" woofers in a smaller, higher tuned enclosure this evening as well. Just for fun...

[Johnloudb]

I've heard that pro sound drivers aren't all that good. Designed for high SPL not high fidelity. I have no personal experience though. I'd like to see a W4 bamboo driver used (I have no plans to build though - too many projects). Wired in parallel you'd have pretty 92dB efficiency. Would be a good match for the 4 RS180 drivers, I think.

[Dennis H]

Moved here from Jed's thread. Brian wrote:

It's not as gradual of a rolloff, but with my current receiver stuck with an 80Hz xo point it will probably be just fine.

You can tweak an RS180 in a pretty small sealed box to have an F3 very near 80. That's the "perfect" box to cross to a sub at 80, i.e. it meets the THX spec. The crossover in receivers is a 4th order lowpass and a 2nd order highpass so it expects to see a sealed Q=.7 box at the crossover frequency -- box rolloff + electrical rolloff = 4th order. Going bigger and ported seems counterproductive -- you won't get as good a blend to the sub at 80.

[Brian Bunge]

Dennis,

I've thought of that too. It might be a good idea to go that route. I just like the option of being able to use a pair of towers at least somewhat without a subwoofer if I so choose. But going sealed might be the best overall approach.

[---k---]

Brian,

That new woman of your's must be something special if you're willing to compromise like this.

[Brian Bunge]

They'd still be small compared to what I have now!

These are my dad's speakers, which are of a similar size to what I'm contemplating, and she's fine with them.

[Hdale85]

Well you know I'm somewhat interested...although not sure I'd build these...not that I wouldn't want to but just no table saw and what not Could be possible though. How low would the RS180's extend being sealed? How much bigger would the cabinet need to be?

[cjd]

RS180 sealed puts an F3 around 80Hz. They'll be a little light but not huge amounts.

If done as a WWMTMWW (you'd want that for a center anyhow, right?) then, like the Khanspires, they could be put on top of a sub if you want a "one cabinet" solution.

C

[Hdale85]

WWMTMWW makes the cabinet quite large and I think he's trying to keep them smaller then the current speakers. Chances are the center would be a WMTMW dropping 2 of the woofers. Not even sure Brian is interested in a center?

[Brian Bunge]

I'd love to do a WWMTMWW but I don't see that happening. I'd like to keep cabinet height around 48"-50" with a baseplate and spikes. It might work out as a WMTMWWW assuming tweeter height could be positioned properly.

And yes, I'm definitely interested in a center. I also need to build an entertainment credenza for the center to sit on top of for when I eventually go front projection.

[Hank]

Brian, the bamboo's are on sale at PE as part of their multi-globe current speaker project, but I'd stick with the titanium's. Do I need a speaker project right now? Well, I just got Freud's new trick saw blade...hmmm...just say no and put the blade down. Wish I had a customer for a pair of smallish towers.

[Hdale85]

Was just looking through Zaph's site for some possible tweeter options instead of the D26.....Although it would be nice to keep the D26 as I could possibly reuse a lot of my parts from current crossovers if I did decide to scrap my Maxx enclosures and go with the RS180's.

[cjd]

I wasn't suggesting WWMTMWW being the only option, just one possible. Only floor bounce would change vs a WMTMWWW... for that matter, you could just flip it over and go SWMTMWWW

The bamboo suggestion was only to have a "warm fuzzy" version for the people that like their even order distortion.

C

[dlneubec]

A quick look in Unibox indicates for a heavily filled, sealed cabinet of qtc .7, for 4 RS180's (2x2 series/parallel) you have need for only about 25 liters and throwing 35w at them yeilds 114db at 1m without reaching xmax with an F3 of about 81hz. You could also port them in as little as 40l with a 3" port, tuned to an fb of 50hz for an f3 of 57hz, if you wanted to a little lower.

[Brian Bunge]

Hank,

Those are the 3" bamboo drivers. Plus, PE's sale prices rarely, if ever, save me any money. I'll probably end up going with the titaniums.

Still contemplating sealed vs. ported. That might be a game time decision (ie, when I start cutting MDF).

[Jed]

Hey Brian,

As I mentioned before in the Maxx thread, I'd be interested in developing this new "maxx variation" after I'm done with the MaxxCC.

However, it also looks like CJD is interested- so depending on our schedules we can decide who will take a stab at the crossover after you decide which drivers you want to work with.

I wouldn't recommend the RS52 in a 3 way, but maybe a 3.5way.

The bamboo drivers don't excite me at all and I wouldn't be interested in them, to be honest. They are almost the same price as the W4 1337, and the titanium cones seem to have better performance.

I'd like to fit in a metal dome tweeter too. But we'll see how this unfolds and what people want to do/have time and funds to build.

Jed

[Dean100]

A quick look in Unibox indicates for a heavily filled, sealed cabinet of qtc .7, for 4 RS180's (2x2 series/parallel) you have need for only about 25 liters and throwing 35w at them yeilds 114db at 1m without reaching xmax with an F3 of about 81hz. You could also port them in as little as 40l with a 3" port, tuned to an fb of 50hz for an f3 of 57hz, if you wanted to a little lower.

I would be interested in something like this. Have already built the Nat P's and could always use them as surrounds. Am looking for a new project to keep me occupied this winter season. This sounds like it would play very loud when needed and still be nice and clean. Would probably use these more for 2 channel music with a sealed sub than movies.

[Jed]

For those of you who don't know, I posted a new version of the Lineup Maxx called the Lineup MaxxL16 here (just scroll down to the bottom of the page):

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=361763&postcount=1

It uses the D26, a pair of W4-1337, and Dual Seas L16s. It works really well in a compact enclosure and plays down below 40hz easily in a ported enclosure. It also will do 60hz sealed. So, before you all jump the gun with an RS180 design, there already exists an L16 version that I'd wager is cleaner than the RS180. :T Of course using 4 RS180s is another matter.

Still, this design is finalized now, so why wait?

That said, I still think the RS180 version would be cool, I just want people to realize there already exists a lower distortion woofer version of the Lineup Maxx using the amazing SEAS L16 drivers. You can see my distortion tests of this driver (in the link above) and Zaph's tests, which verify the low distortion below 400hz.

Jed

[Brian Bunge]

Jed,

3-way, 3.5-way, whatever works! I know Pete Schumacher has done a 3-way with that mid and tweet along with the DA175's and seems to think they work well.

I imagine whatever I build I'll take my own measurements this time around as well. I've got someone at work who's verified that his measurement system works properly and he'll help me get mine working right as well.

I'm hesitant to use the Seas only because a) it's a 5", b) if I'm going to spend that kind of money on drivers I'd almost consider getting some Usher 7" woofers.

I'd love to use a metal dome tweeter as well. Got any ideas? There don't seem to be any neo metal domes worth looking at. I do have a pair of the Seas 22TAF/G 3/4" tweeters that I'm not using. I would imagine with the right xo frequency it would work pretty well.

[Jed]

Sounds good Brian.

That's great that you have someone that can take measurements. I could help you out with the crossover if you send me the files and tell me the measurement conditions. Problem is a lot of folks don't seem to take final system measurements with the crossover in place. A few DB differences from the simulation can take place versus the real thing, so if you get a crossover schematic, make sure you measure the final system response to verify.

Make sure you have a calibrated mic too, otherwise the measurements are worthless. I recommend Cross Spectrum Labs. They have a very fast turnaround time too.

Let me know if I can be of any further assistance during the build.

[Brian Bunge]

Jed,

We'll definitely be measuring, designing the xo, building, listening, doing more measuring and listening, etc.

[Jed]

Very nice Brian.

Be warned, once you start desiging speakers it is even more addicting than building them. :P

[Brian Bunge]

Oh, I am sure. I've done enough enclosure design over the years to know that.

BTW, any ideas on a metal dome tweet?

[Hdale85]

Haven't seen anything real new and exciting....just the usual Seas 27TBFCG TDFCG Dayton RS28A......Was looking at the XT25 but not sure what kind of tweet that is???

[PoorboyMike]

I'd like to see the B&G Neo3PDR used in a design. Zaph said it's as good as the high-end domes within it's operating range.

[kestrel]

I'd like to see the B&G Neo3PDR used in a design. Zaph said it's as good as the high-end domes within it's operating range.

I 2nd that!! Let's get a good 3 way using the NEO3PDR !

[Jed]

The BG Neo3PDR was used in this design:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=26798

[Johnloudb]

From Miniliths speaker thread (see link Jed posted above):

After what seemed like months of hard work (oh, wait - it really took that long), I finally finished my speakers

I'm absolutely blown away at the Neo drivers in this configuration. By combining the 8 and 3 , I avoided most of the issues (especially regarding FR) I had with the Neo3 alone.

The Neo8, crossed at 800Hz, is simply superb.

How good is it?

Here's an idea - I was listening to the "Brothers in Arms" XRCD2 disc today, and I was sure I had blown a speaker. It had a very strange distortion I had never heard. After swapping channels, speakers, amplifiers, versions of the album, and listening to both speakers side by side I realized something - the distortion I was listening to came from the bass guitar itself. It was so real and pure, I thought the Neo8 had blown up! :E

Now I have a question... can a dynamic driver sound as realistic as the planar ones? I've listened to many, but I had never confused real life distortion with recorded distortion. And I don't think I've ever heard a speaker with such dynamic transients, either (except for my old MartinLogan Scenarios, which were quite quick with transients, but sounded terrible).

I'm sold on these drivers. I'll try to post some pictures and more information tomorrow.

Neo3PDR sounds good to me. :T

[Jed]

John,

That's not my post. I haven't used the BG tweeter.

Jed

[Johnloudb]

John,

That's not my post. I haven't used the BG tweeter.

Jed

I know, That's not what I meant. I apologize, I edited my last post so that it's less confusing.

[dawaro]

Oh, I am sure. I've done enough enclosure design over the years to know that.

BTW, any ideas on a metal dome tweet?

How about the Seas 27TAFNC/G? I believe Zaph tested it and got pretty good results with it. Also with the small diameter C-t-C spacing would not be an issue.

[jpmst3]

That looks interesting, nice small flange too.

[cjd]

Who stocks that now? I don't see it available at Mad any longer.

[dawaro]

It is still at Madisound.
Seas 27TAFNC

[jpmst3]

Has anyone ever given it a listen?

[Jed]

The Seas 22TAFG looks a lot better on paper than that other small metal dome tweeter, at least according to Zaph's tests. Otherwise it's a downgrade from the D26. Besides Brian, you already have a pair of Seas 22TAFG, right? Cross them around 2.5k and call it a day.

[Brian Bunge]

Jed,

I just might do that!