The Aethers: budget Dipoles from Iowa DIY 2007

[augerpro]

I think the TB woofer is an excellent choice. Should interest people into building this, unlike the other drivers that are going bye bye.

[carlton]

I have two Sea's 27TBFC/G (H1212) I am not using.could I switch these out for the Seas 27 TDFC ? Thought I'd ask ..save some money..thanks for any reply...

[Brian Bunge]

Carlton,

What condition are they in? I've got a pair of TDFC's that have only been used for testing that I might be willing to swap with you.

[Undefinition]

I have two Sea's 27TBFC/G (H1212) I am not using.could I switch these out for the Seas 27 TDFC ? Thought I'd ask ..save some money..thanks for any reply...

Good question. A few weeks ago, I actually swapped in a pair of TBFC/G that I just bought for another project. They work just fine. To my ears, the TBFC/G sound a bit "cleaner" (more clinical, transparent?) than the TDFC. Some people definitely like this sound, so it's a perfectly valid substitution. Personally, I actually preferred the sound of the TDFC; it has a bit of "spice." :W

[carlton]

Carlton,

What condition are they in? I've got a pair of TDFC's that have only been used for testing that I might be willing to swap with you.

I've taken the screens off,don't think you'd be interested ..thanks anyway.

[Undefinition]

Aethers V3, using TB W5-704D... IT'S HERE!!!

Wooooooooooooooo!

Yeah, it's pretty exciting, at least to a nerd like me. I've learned quite a bit about crossover design since the first version of these, and I'm very proud of how this has turned out.

Quick breakdown:
1. The original "boxless" sound is very much intact. If this design intrigued you before, but couldn't try it because of availability of drivers, this is for you.
2. These drivers integrate VERY nicely to the crossover topology I've been using. If you look at the driver responses on the FR graph, EVERYTHING rolls off with a 2LR slope! It's enough to make Dennis Murphy happy (well, I hope, anyway). There is also no more negative interference between the mids and tweeter, because the phase now lines up very nicely between all the drivers. What does this mean for the listener? It means that that the sound stays very consistent, and the listening axis is very large. You also gain a bit more detail because there is no "suckout" of certain frequencies. End of story: it's a hell of a lot of sound for under $300.

Here's the revised crossover and FR for these drivers and notice also that the tweeter cap has changed a bit to give a nice sweet null when the polarity is flipped. Honestly, I don't know if my ears actually cared whether the cap was 5.1 uF or 6.8 uF, or anything in-between. But at least it looks good on paper.



If you were one of many who jumped on that DOTD for the Tang Band W5-704D, this is a really fun way to put them to use. Even if you missed your chance, the drivers are still very reasonably priced, and you can finally be in on the dipole action. Yes, the project is officially done, and I can rest finally knowing that the parts to accomplish it are very easy to obtain.

So enjoy!
Sincerely,
Paul Carmody

P.S.: One last note, I have the greatest respect for Linkwitz and Kreskovsky, and I am only beginning to understand all the amazing ideas they work with. I know I overlooked a lot of details they might find important. However, there is a definite reason to have open-back speakers, and I hope that the Aethers stand as a good "starter" demonstration of what such a sound is capable of.

[ttan98]

why is it the Andy G's postings got deleted, self-censored(3 postings) or removed by the moderator?

why are the reasons?

can we know them?

Thanks.

[critofur]

OMG! You mean this is one of those "hard cone" sites? Well my mother was right. She said it starts with a an innocent "poly" here or there, then its on to the hard cones, and before you know it your buying ceramics and living on the street. Mommeeeeeeeee, save me from the speaker dealers!

Hey! Are you the same Muadibb that I see when I play Urban Terror (Quake 3 mod)? edit: I think that one spells his name maud dib? ops:

I've TRIED to like hard cones, but, they always give me a headache (fatiguing), except for one speaker, the Revel Salon Ultima (but that costs $20K ), I've never met a metal cone I liked. I was like "pistonic this" "pistonic that" "let's make it PISTONIC man!", if I couldn't have diamond cones, I wanted Beryllium! But... then I saw the price, so much for getting my own custom Beryllium cones made for the drivers I was designing, until I strike it rich, someday...

Over and over and over, I wanted to like hard cones, but my ears always told me: poly, paper, or composite cones are better, imperfect, but, better. Audax's 5.25" Aerogel cone with the phase plug was very nice, but, no sooner than I had ordered one to test, they got discontinued

I might try that Tang Band 4" Titanium driver, that looks interesting, but anything with nasty rough breakup peaks like Mt. Everest - yuck, unless, MAYBE if it's powered with a digital crossover and each speaker being driven by it's own amp?

I have no PROOF yet, but my gut tells me that complex crossovers do something un-natural to the music so that when you listen to it, on some level, some part of your brain is saying "ow, what is this crap?" trying to make sense of the twisted transients and that's why it's fatiguing?

edit: I had quoted another post here and lamented not seeing this thread earlier to ask if he had missed the $15 sale on the TB W5s...
<SNIP> Duh... Now I see the post where you say you've made Aethers with the TB ~ now to go back and look at the links...

Out of curiosity, would you say these speakers sound better than something like the B&W 800 series?

edit again: I'm guessing that Zaph would say the W5-704 wouldn't be very good dipole speakers as the excursion would be enough to cause higher distortion levels at higher frequencies? I'm not familiar yet with how to know which drivers are good dipole candidates, I should go back and read Linkwitz website again and that would prob. give me a good explanation? This is a shot in the dark, but, would this be a good rule of thumb: the larger the VAS the more likely a driver would be a good dipole candidate? I guess I should just go ahead and setup my measurement mic and measure the W5-704 on a big baffle and see what it does, the worst thing that could happen would be that it won't be able to play very loud nicely without a high pass filter on it...

[Undefinition]

Out of curiosity, would you say these speakers sound better than something like the B&W 800 series?

Never heard them. Doesn't mean I wouldn't like to. With the exception of when Jason took them to the RAW showroom, I don't think the Aethers ever gone head-to-head aginst commercial speakers. And I don't really feel like lugging my MDF boxes with crossovers on pegboard over to my local HiFi boutique. Something tells me they wouldn't get it.
On the other hand, if there are any brave souls out there who own very nice commercial speakers, and want to embark on this Budget project, I'd be curious to read their reactions.

edit again: I'm guessing that Zaph would say the W5-704 wouldn't be very good dipole speakers as the excursion would be enough to cause higher distortion levels at higher frequencies? I'm not familiar yet with how to know which drivers are good dipole candidates, I should go back and read Linkwitz website again and that would prob. give me a good explanation? This is a shot in the dark, but, would this be a good rule of thumb: the larger the VAS the more likely a driver would be a good dipole candidate? I guess I should just go ahead and setup my measurement mic and measure the W5-704 on a big baffle and see what it does, the worst thing that could happen would be that it won't be able to play very loud nicely without a high pass filter on it...

Dipole bass is really hard on woofers. This is why Linkwitz used woofers which basically had the most xmax available at the time for the Orions. There is no dipole bass in this design, however. Now, from 200 Hz on up, operating on an open baffle is really not too difficult for most drivers. Look at most guitar cabinets to see proof that this is done all the time.
I don't think VAS would impact a driver running open baffle. I remember when I first started this project, asking the sales rep from madisound on the phone what factors might be important, he theorized that a Qts around .5 is probably ideal.
What IS important in open baffle mids is having a decent amount of surface area to reproduce them. That's why this design uses 2 5" drivers, instead of just one. The more drivers you have to perform a task the less each driver has to work, hence, less excursion--and most likely less distortion.

[JasonB]

Never heard them. Doesn't mean I wouldn't like to. With the exception of when Jason took them to the RAW showroom, I don't think the Aethers ever gone head-to-head aginst commercial speakers.

The event at the RAW showroom wasn't really any sort of official comparison, just a few guys getting together and listening to some speakers. There were a pair of commercial speakers with open backed mids there and I may be slightly biased but I definetly preferred the Aethers. They really performed well in that room, nice large soundstage, and truely full range. They really seemed to fill the room better than the other pair. As far as comparison to the commercial monopoles there, RAW's speakers are really nice and I would be quite happy with a pair of the HT3's in my living room. They cost significantly more to build than a pair of Aethers but there are some gains to be had in spending that extra money on better drivers and crossovers that have been carefully refined over several versions of that product. That said, you really have to hear the Aethers, everyone who does is very surprised at how little they cost to build and dipole mids are something everyone should hear at least once.

Jason

[NEO Dan]

Paul,
Congratulations on the win :T

I wandered into this thread via the TB W5-704* thread.

Others have openly discouraged me from using the Dayton DVC drivers as they are not good enough for use in a high quality design. Regardless I am still curious. Have you taken any distortion measurements?

I did follow the link to your google page, I got a 404 error for the doc file and a picture in the TB section is not working.

I may build a pair just for the dipole experience.

Looking at the pictures I can't help but wonder if some round overs on the edges would further clean up the response.


Dan

[ThomasW]

why is it the Andy G's postings got deleted, self-censored(3 postings) or removed by the moderator?

why are the reasons?

can we know them?

Thanks.

Don't have a clue what was in those posts.

Andy got mad and decided to deleted most of his posts for the last 2 years.

[Undefinition]

Others have openly discouraged me from using the Dayton DVC drivers as they are not good enough for use in a high quality design. Regardless I am still curious. Have you taken any distortion measurements?

No, but they do have a lot of extension and xmax. I'm sure there are many lower-distortion woofers out there, but I am still okay with them as they are. I'm a bassist and a percussionist, and I feel like those instruments are accurately represented on the low end. The real detailed information happens above 250 Hz, and that's where the TB W5-704D and Seas tweeter sort of blew me away. My only real regret with using these woofers is the fact that it leads to an inherently low impedance. As I've said before, I'd like to try an 8" Dayton Classic woofer as an alternative, simply for the sake of impedance. Again, there are much lower-distortion drivers out there, but I'm trying to keep this in the "budget" category.

I may build a pair just for the dipole experience.

Be my guest. I hope you enjoy them. The fact that many people have expressed interest in building these just for the sake of experimentation is another factor making me keep the budget low.

Looking at the pictures I can't help but wonder if some round overs on the edges would further clean up the response.

It might. When I finally get around to finishing the cabs, I'll do a chamfer all the way down the front. Will I hear the difference? <shrug> I dunno. What I do know is that these speakers will play WITH the room, so a roundover on the baffle would probably not be nearly as noticeable as, say, adding curtains.

[mayhem13]

Hey Paul-love the design and as a musician i think the voicing you were after is just what i'm looking for. The DVC 8" isn't on PE site anymore so i may have to find a suitable replacement. Any thoughts on an active bass module ?

[---k---]

Hey Paul-love the design and as a musician i think the voicing you were after is just what i'm looking for. The DVC 8" isn't on PE site anymore so i may have to find a suitable replacement. Any thoughts on an active bass module ?

No?

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-480

[Undefinition]

Thanks Ryan. I should really start calling it by the Dayton model #, which is SD215.

After a year of living with that woofer, I really have to say that it's a great driver. I've tried simulating several other 8" woofers, just out of curiosity, and nothing can get as much extension in that size cabinet for the money. An F3 in the mid 20's on a 3-way speaker... what's not to like?

[NEO Dan]

Paul,
you mentioned the lowish impedance being a concern, and I was wondering if you had ever considered just going to dual bass modules. If they were wired in series the impedance would be up where you want it and the sensitivity would be the same, no?

Could you ninja rigg it with what you've already got, just stack a bass module upside down on top(make a rear support) and give it a go. This should give you more even room response, and headroom. Probably worth a try.

[Undefinition]

Paul,
you mentioned the lowish impedance being a concern, and I was wondering if you had ever considered just going to dual bass modules. If they were wired in series the impedance would be up where you want it and the sensitivity would be the same, no?

Box too big. Unless you want to seal it. Which the SD215 really like, BTW. But when you get that ported alignment right... the bass really digs deep!

Could you ninja rigg it with what you've already got, just stack a bass module upside down on top(make a rear support) and give it a go. This should give you more even room response, and headroom. Probably worth a try.

Hahaha! A WMTMW Aethers? That would be awe-inspiring! I'll never build it, but nothing could make me giddier than to see someone else build it!

Is this what you had in mind? :B

[NEO Dan]

Paul,
yes that's it. What would it take filter wise to make that work? I'm into the idea of building this.

[Mazeroth]

Paul,

It's funny how your last two dipole projects use drivers that I have sitting here collecting dust. I'm 95% certain I'm going to build your Aethers after I get the crossover parts from the PE tent sale. It will be my first build using someone else's design.

Thanks for all your hard work.

[JJones]

How about this woofer:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-368

For the bass bin.

I've looked and looked, and I guess there isn't much, if any, option better than the SD215 for $50 ea or less per woofer? (or pair of woofers, if say, using a pair of 8" or smaller woofers per bass bin)

[JJones]

I happen to already have at least four of these: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=264-832 also - to use those though, I guess I'd have to use a plate amp, or some sort of seperate amp (actively equalized) because they're just not sensitive enough otherwise.

[Undefinition]

How about this woofer:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-368

For the bass bin.
I've looked and looked, and I guess there isn't much, if any, option better than the SD215 for $50 ea or less per woofer? (or pair of woofers, if say, using a pair of 8" or smaller woofers per bass bin)

That RS is a great driver. But suddenly it makes changes to the project which sort of work against the original intent. First, it's not cheap. And the final cost of the Aethers is one of things that caught a lot of people's eye. I think a lot of folks wanted to try dipoles and OB designs (myself included), but they seemed costly, and most people thought it was only possible with active XO (possibly due to the excellent work of Siegfried Linkwitz and John K, who are both advocates of active filtering and amplification). Second, the Aethers did everything as simply as possible, and drivers were chosen because they needed minimal filtering, but still offered a really high costerformance ratio. And honestly, I didn't TRY to skimp on parts to get them into the budget category; that was just where the final cost fell. At the time, I didn't use any more filtering components because back then I wouldn't have even understood what they were doing.

Needless to say, my understanding of crossover design has grown substantially since then. But I wouldn't re-do the project; just as the original "Planet of the Apes" is a great movie, and and there was no reason it should have been re-done. So rather than remake a past success, I decided to do something new for a challenge. So, if you want to see RS drivers in a similar configuration, you'll want to look here:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30535

[NEO Dan]

Paul,
I was looking at the cabinet drawings and I noticed the driver height on the tweeter is 33". Is the intended listening axis on the tweeter, or top mid(38.25")?

I am looking at these for use in a front projection HT setup. I would be looking to put the drivers a bit higher up and tilting the baffle forward to achieve the correct axis if necessary. Say tweeter at 42" , but maintaining all the driver spacing and the baffle angles like so.:

[Jed]

I'm not sure that is tall enough. :B

[NEO Dan]

purely a matter of scale and perspective
7'6"

[Undefinition]

Paul,
I was looking at the cabinet drawings and I noticed the driver height on the tweeter is 33". Is the intended listening axis on the tweeter, or top mid(38.25")?

I am looking at theese for use in a front projection HT setup. I would be looking to put the drivers a bit higher up and tilting the baffle foreward to acheive the correct axis if nessary. Say tweeter at 42" , but maintaining all the driver spacing and the baffle angles like so.:

Wow, dude. Wow. ;x(

That looks incredible. I would love to see that built. It'd definitely go on my website.

I'm not 100% sure about the crossover. Technically, none of the values should change. But I plugged it into the PCD sim I used to design the speakers, and for reasons I don't understand, it looks like some values on the LP filter will have to change. Give me a few days to consult my "gurus," and we'll get this together.

[NEO Dan]

Paul,
glad you like the "open back" theme. Should be easy to build.
When you get that listening axis info, I could also draw a taller stylized version of the original.

[Undefinition]

WMTMW Aethers XO

Paul,
I was looking at the cabinet drawings and I noticed the driver height on the tweeter is 33". Is the intended listening axis on the tweeter, or top mid(38.25")?

Listening axis is with the tweeter. Do with that information what you will.

Okay, got the XO revision figured out. Very simple; not sure why this project has induced so many brain farts in me. ops: Mids and Tweeter filters will stay the same. Woofer filter will change...

Image not available

Have a ball. Keep us posted on how it progresses!

[NEO Dan]

Paul,
at least the cap got smaller

looks like everything is going UP



I'm not sure what I'm gonna do, it is still tempting though.
I may buy the components in chunks to ease the pain

[Undefinition]

at least the cap got smaller
looks like everything is going UP
I'm not sure what I'm gonna do, it is still tempting though.
I may buy the components in chunks to ease the pain

Sigh. They do creep those prices up on us consumers, don't they?