Advice on what to build

[Emprov]

First post, long time lurker. First off, I'm a bass player who's learning new tunes all the time. Much of the time, I'm trying to pull stuff off of a CD and my current rehearsal setup isn't working all that well. I practice in a 10'x11' room using a 15" powered PA speaker that's hooked up through a mixer with a CD player attached -- overkill and the bass is less than detailed. What I'd like to build is something that has detailed bass while still having a touch of thump. I also play my bass at low volumes to the CD to do things like check notes and runs for accuracy (one band that I play with has a beyond anal leader), so I'd need it to be "present" enough to keep up with my rig (again, it's low volume). So I'd like to build a speaker that will be better suited for my practice room. I've checked high and low and ran across this one but I'm concerned that such a small speaker wouldn't allow for much bass to come through. I've also considered the Modulas and D3's but I'm thinking that they're overkill for such a small room. Any ideas? I'm kind of stumped here.

[Dennis H]

The 15" PA probably lacks the high frequency stuff you need so it sounds muddy. But the 4" you linked is way "underkill" for a bass guitar. There's no such thing as overkill as long as it plays fullrange at a reasonable volume. Any of the projects in Missions Accomplished should do what you need. Bigger is better as long as it's within your budget.

[Emprov]

The 15" PA probably lacks the high frequency stuff you need so it sounds muddy. But the 4" you linked is way "underkill" for a bass guitar. There's no such thing as overkill as long as it plays fullrange at a reasonable volume. Any of the projects in Missions Accomplished should do what you need. Bigger is better as long as it's within your budget.

The PA speaker actually has plenty of highs, it's the lows that are the problem -- they're not anywhere near detailed enough. Also, room aesthetics need to be considered. I'm married and we're trying to convert my rehearsal space into a guest room. I'll still practice in there but I'm guessing that my wife would feel that smaller is better since we have guests over a few times a year. Almost pulled the plug on a the D3 but the size scared me away.

Edit: Also, I've heard that you build for the room, I have a vague idea of what that means but I have absolutely no idea how to go about doing it.

[joecarrow]

There's a lot to consider here. I don't think you mentioned it- what are you using to amplify this? A powered mixer?

I've been extremely happy with the Modula MT's bass, but I also think that even a 7" driver is probably underkill for a bass guitar. Can you define what 'low volume' means to you? For example, if someone ran a vacuum cleaner in the next room, would you need to turn it up to still hear it? If they ran it in the same room? Better still would be a measure of the SPL in decibels, but I understand not everyone has an SPL meter in my toolbox.

If you can build it as a floorstander, Mark K's RS225/RS28a could be a contender:

http://www.markk.claub.net/RS225_RS28A_updates/dayton_reference_rs225.htm

You're right about building the speakers for the room- this is the "baffle step compensation" (sorry, I have to ask you to google it- I'm heading to bed after this, it has to do with wavelength of sound and how it transitions from the speaker to the room), as well as the ported box tuning. Those two things will have a large impact on how the bass sounds in your room, as well as actual placement in the room, and the location and makeup of whatever objects are in the room that can absorb or reflect sound.

Our further recommendations will be influenced by your answer of amplification, as well as how loud "loud" is.

[---k---]

A bass guitar will extend down to ~40hz, no? Just take a look at the f3 point of the speakers you're considering, and that will give you a good idea of whether it will do what you want. Bass takes a lot of driver to reach down that low. That is why there are things like subwoofers.

So what is your budget?

If you're looking for small speakers, I think the ModulaMT would be a good choice. I've heard it, and it has great bass. I haven't heard MarkK's RS28/225 design, but it is probably another very good choice. Lots of options.

[Emprov]

There's a lot to consider here. I don't think you mentioned it- what are you using to amplify this? A powered mixer?

I've been extremely happy with the Modula MT's bass, but I also think that even a 7" driver is probably underkill for a bass guitar. Can you define what 'low volume' means to you? For example, if someone ran a vacuum cleaner in the next room, would you need to turn it up to still hear it? If they ran it in the same room? Better still would be a measure of the SPL in decibels, but I understand not everyone has an SPL meter in my toolbox.

If you can build it as a floorstander, Mark K's RS225/RS28a could be a contender:

http://www.markk.claub.net/RS225_RS28A_updates/dayton_reference_rs225.htm

I'm planning on going with a stereo for once, like normal people do it. And, as far as volume, I have my kids sleeping in the next room so I try to keep it low enough so not to wake them. If there was a vacuum running in the same room while I was playing, the operator would receive a swift jimmy kick to make them stop.

I have a rehearsal tonight so I can probably grab an SPL meter for the night if it'd help.

And I like the idea of a sealed box, smaller is definitely better in my sitch. And I'm not trying to match the freq's of my rig, just to be able to hear the bass as accurately as possible. If a box only goes down to 60 and will do that, sign me up. As far as budget, I'm fairly flexible but lower cost is definitely better. These won't be used anywhere but in the practice room for probably an hour a week at the absolute most so I'd rather not dump $400 on them.

[Landroval]

Zaph's BAMTM could be a good choice for you. In 2 cu.ft. vented they should go low enough and give you the sound quality you need with a nice price:

http://www.zaphaudio.com/BAMTM.html

[joecarrow]

I'm planning on going with a stereo for once, like normal people do it. And, as far as volume, I have my kids sleeping in the next room so I try to keep it low enough so not to wake them.
...

I have a rehearsal tonight so I can probably grab an SPL meter for the night if it'd help.
...

As far as what amplifier, I meant- what stereo amp, what receiver? What I'm concerned about is if it can handle a 4 ohm impedance speaker, and how many watts it's good for. The BAMTM would be a great speaker too, and more budget oriented, but it is a 4 ohm speaker, and needs a decent stereo amp to drive properly.

I should mention, also, that most of my friends who play bass (I play drums... or did before I started living in apartments) kind of enjoy how it sounds to play through a PA instead of a "bass amp". If I had to guess what the difference in sound is, I would guess that the PAs we used had flatter frequency response and lower distortion. A home stereo oriented design will be more like this than your bass amp, and ought to give you that sound.

[Emprov]

As far as what amplifier, I meant- what stereo amp, what receiver? What I'm concerned about is if it can handle a 4 ohm impedance speaker, and how many watts it's good for. The BAMTM would be a great speaker too, and more budget oriented, but it is a 4 ohm speaker, and needs a decent stereo amp to drive properly.

I should mention, also, that most of my friends who play bass (I play drums... or did before I started living in apartments) kind of enjoy how it sounds to play through a PA instead of a "bass amp". If I had to guess what the difference in sound is, I would guess that the PAs we used had flatter frequency response and lower distortion. A home stereo oriented design will be more like this than your bass amp, and ought to give you that sound.

Firstly, the PA speaker is a 15" Powered EON. It, along with about 5 others and a powered sub, do an ok job in live situations but, when I'm running it only out of the left side of a Mackie 1202, it leaves a bit to be desired. Guess I could get a 2-1 plug and run both sides through the EON but still, the bass is more boomy and less detailed -- I'd love more detail.

And secondly, the amp is an older Sony digital receiver. It recommends 8-16ohm so a 4ohm speaker wouldn't exactly make it happy for too long. Then again, just about everyone I know runs 4ohm speakers with receivers that like 8ohm loads, go figure.

[PoorboyMike]

And secondly, the amp is an older Sony digital receiver. It recommends 8-16ohm so a 4ohm speaker wouldn't exactly make it happy for too long.

You said you wouldn't be playing at high volumes, so you should be OK with the Sony. If not, you will find out soon enough!

[Emprov]

Bump. Sold the EON yesterday and I have no speakers in the music room -- I need some....quickly. Does anyone know anything about Mark K's RS225/RS28a? I've heard it said that 2 ways shouldn't be built with anything larger than a 5.25" woofer, I'm concerned about the 8" size of the RS225. Also, deep bass isn't a real priority, nice but not a deal breaker, I'm much more concerned about the detail of the bass. Any guesses on the level of low/low-mid detail on this thing?

[---k---]

The RS225 is a great driver. I've got two each in my big three-ways. You're not going to find a better driver unless you really step up in price.

Several people have built the MarkK, including KGvetern, and have liked them. I think you'll be fine. If you're concerned about the detail in the midrange of using it, build the ModulaMT.

[Emprov]

Several people have built the MarkK, including KGvetern, and have liked them. I think you'll be fine. If you're concerned about the detail in the midrange of using it, build the ModulaMT.

I've thought quite a bit about the ModulaMT. That's one heck of a crossover though. :E

[---k---]

You want all the detail and clarity of a metal cone driver and nothing else, right?

[Dennis H]

I've heard it said that 2 ways shouldn't be built with anything larger than a 5.25" woofer, I'm concerned about the 8" size of the RS225.

Depends on how low your tweeter can go and how good the crossover designer is. No problems with Mark's design. For using with a bass, I'd build it in a bigger ported box -- tower with the tweeter at ear height -- to get the really low notes. Just keep the baffle width and tweeter location relative to the top and sides the same. Ryan can talk to you about how to tune the box.

[servicetech]

You said you wouldn't be playing at high volumes, so you should be OK with the Sony. If not, you will find out soon enough!

I have an old 5.1 Sony amp and there is a 4/8 ohm switch on the back. If your Sony uses discrete devices instead of an IC you should be OK running a 4 ohm load. You can tell by looking through the top vents and seeing what is on the large heat sink, either you will see several 3 leg devices or a few large multi pin IC's. The IC's don't hold up well w/4ohm loads when played at high power.

[Emprov]

Modula MT w/RS28A is around $370 on PE before tax and shipping, I think my wife would shoot me if I spent that much given all of the other projects that I have on my plate. Checking into the Seas versions...

[Emprov]

Depends on how low your tweeter can go and how good the crossover designer is. No problems with Mark's design. For using with a bass, I'd build it in a bigger ported box -- tower with the tweeter at ear height -- to get the really low notes. Just keep the baffle width and tweeter location relative to the top and sides the same. Ryan can talk to you about how to tune the box.

Actually, with the volumes at which I typically play in that room, the depth isn't really an issue. I'm not trying to compete with my bass rig, just about any speaker would lose 10 out of 10 times so I'm thinking that a sealed cab may be the way to go. I'd love to do something with the Dayton DA175 but I'd rather not build a MTM design and I don't have the software to do the box/crossover design along with the testing -- one of the negative aspects of being a Mac user. :cry:

[---k---]

You might want to ask on the PA board. There are a couple of people who love the DA175 there, and are familiar with a wider array of less expensive designs. They might be better able to point you to a decent design.

[mpotoka]

Where are you located? I've got some Modulas you could take a look at..

[Emprov]

Where are you located? I've got some Modulas you could take a look at..

I'm in NorCal, about 40 miles south of San Francisco. Odds are pretty good that we're nowhere near each other. Thanks though!

[mpotoka]

Yeah I'm in Minnesota--a bit too far

[chrisn]

Uses the DA175 and HiVi K1 and shouldn't cost too much to duplicate.



HTH

[Emprov]

Uses the DA175 and HiVi K1 and shouldn't cost too much to duplicate.



HTH

D'oh! Just ordered the parts for Zaph's BAMTM this afternoon, thanks though! Now, I'll that I have to do is make a decision on the box volume and throw the darn thing together.