Looking for a 2-way, reading alot, eyes and head hurt now!

**Hdale85** · 27 October 2007, 15:53 Saturday

The Natalie P's are very nice and great for a first project. I've heard them and they sounded quite amazing for the cost in parts.

**Jonny_boy** · 27 October 2007, 16:00 Saturday

Originally posted by Dougie085

The Natalie P's are very nice

I've read about them and Zaph's BAMTM also. But both are 4ohm speakers which I can't use. Need to be 8ohms unfortunately.

J

**ThomasW** · 27 October 2007, 16:34 Saturday

Your first decision is .....

Do you want to build a speaker designed by a self-appointed internet speaker design 'guru' with 6 months of loudspeaker simulation experience, or a design created by someone like JonMarsh who has 30+yrs of knowledge in this field?

If you build one of the designs hosted on this forum, you have access to quite a few people as a support mechanism for your build. When needed we also provide support for MarkK's and Zaph's designs..

**Jonasz** · 27 October 2007, 18:36 Saturday

I would build Mark K's RS225 design but with Curt's RS225 tuning or the NatalieP.
Haven't heard Marks design but the NatP does sound very good!

**ThomasW** · 27 October 2007, 18:40 Saturday

He lives in Canada and doesn't want to pay to import drivers from PE...

**joecarrow** · 27 October 2007, 19:05 Saturday

Originally posted by Jonny_boy

Looking to build an existing design of a floor standing 2-way for music listening on a standard 8ohm amp:

1)Sealed, or vented??? I am open to modifying the internal volume without changing baffle width of course. But what are the major disadvantage at using a vented design over sealed? Is the base truly single note with a vented design?

Vented or sealed... well, I'll tell you what- a properly tuned box ported box is far better than I would have thought. So often we hear poorly designed ported boxes that give the configuration a bad name. They give a sharp peak around the tuning frequency, and the port is too small in diameter and causes noise. I think that with a properly tuned box you will find that room acoustics are a bigger concern than the participation of the port.

A lot of extremely high-end commercial designs use ports. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the idea, not compared to a lot of other things that impact the sound a lot more.

3) My head hurts. Help![/QUOTE]

Lie down, relax, and don't stress too much about it. This is supposed to be fun, right? If you want, you can go to the store and listen to some commercial designs and get a handle on what you can expect from different woofer sizes. In my experience, a single ported 7" (the RS180) is just on the small side of what I'd call "enough" for my listening habits. For more music I feel like I'm hearing more than 90% of what's there, and it would take a good sub to get that last 10%. I don't expect to ever find a 7" woofer that will satisfy me as being "enough". A really extravagant 8" might just do it for me- but certainly not sealed. I think a 12" is the smallest sealed driver that'll get me where I want to go.

It was helpful to have a variety of different speakers in my home at different points, but you can get some perspective just from visiting hi-fi stores and listening to their gear. Don't take any sales person's word, though- some aren't afraid of lying, and some just have no idea what they're talking about. I had a guy tell me a speaker was sealed once, and when I looked at the back there was a port. How hard would it have been to tell me the truth?

**WillyD** · 27 October 2007, 19:08 Saturday

He lives in Canada and doesn't want to pay to import drivers from PE...

Hmm...I think I'd build Zaph's soon-to-be-posted ER18/27TDFC design then.

For more music I feel like I'm hearing more than 90% of what's there, and it would take a good sub to get that last 10%. I don't expect to ever find a 7" woofer that will satisfy me as being "enough".

I totally agree. I really love my Modula MTs but I pretty much require my sub to have a more complete experience.

**Jonny_boy** · 27 October 2007, 21:40 Saturday

Ok, I've been doing some calculations and cost comparisons between the Zaph L18 and the Modula MT design...

The Modula MT will cost me about 30$ more per finished speaker compared to the L18. The reason being the extra shipping and duties to order the RS-180 AND the fact that the Modula X-over costs exactly double that of the L18 design....

My question is... Does the Modula offer any advantages over the L18 that might justify a 60$ more for a complete pair??? Anyone compared them?

**joecarrow** · 27 October 2007, 21:56 Saturday

My primary speakers before were Infinity Qa's, with a sealed 10" woofer and ribbon tweeter. We can say that there was a marked improvement in midrange during that upgrade, and a slight increase in midbass output potential. What I lost was everything below about 35 hz. If it wasn't too loud and I applied some EQ, the sealed 10"s would play down below 30 hz with audible output.

Even though I didn't optimize for really low bass with EQ or anything, it seemed somewhat more natural to have the bass taper off gradually, with some output still around down in the range below most instruments fundamentals. Likewise, electronic music with slides to extremely low notes faded out more gradually, and didn't draw attention to "This is the point where your speakers stop making bass".

Mark K's RS225 has some bass potential- I don't think there's any reason it needs to be sealed like he made it. An RS225 in a big ported box should really be able to rock. This brings me to another point... you say "A standard 8 ohm amp". Well, many of these designs are good enough that you will really hear the difference from a better amp. A lot of the really good amps that I know of are just fine with 4 ohms. I'm not saying that good speakers won't sound good with a lower quality amp, but I am saying that a lower quality amp is ever only going to sound so good before it's the weakest link. Many of these designs will place your amp as the weakest link, and you will be very pleasantly surprised when you finally get around to upgrading it. The Modula MTs can hang with commercial speakers costing far more than the material parts of building them with the Parts Express cabinets. The other designs may be of similar value, but I haven't heard them so I can't say.

**joecarrow** · 27 October 2007, 22:03 Saturday

Originally posted by Jonny_boy

Ok, I've been doing some calculations and cost comparisons between the Zaph L18 and the Modula MT design...

The Modula MT will cost me about 50$ more per finished speaker compared to the L18. The reason being the extra shipping and duties to order the RS-180 AND the fact that the Modula X-over costs exactly double that of the L18 design....

My question is... Does the Modula offer any advantages over the L18 that might justify a 100$ more for a complete pair??? Anyone compared them?

Honestly, I have some respect for Zaph's work. If it was the same price, I'd say to go for the Modula MT for bass, and L18 for midrange. The following driver test was something I agonized over for a while before finally picking the Modula MT:

L18 vs RS180

I built a version of the Modula MT with the Seas H1212 (aluminum dome) tweeter, and I've been happy with the tweeter's sound. It's only harsh when I play harsh sounds through it. It only sounds metallic when metallic type things are in the movies, etc. When it's supposed to be soft and sweet, it most definitely is.

If I were you, I'd go for the Zaph design, and save the money for an eventual amp upgrade 8)

**Jonny_boy** · 27 October 2007, 22:15 Saturday

Craps, I miscalculated, it's 30$/speaker and 60$ per pair...

I understand what you mean about the amp but right now I have to focus on the weakest link... my speakers. But at 70$ difference... I just want to know if I get more for the extra money...

Thanks for the link but it doesn't help as it seams to be a close call in that comparisson.

Off topic, how long do paper cones last compared to aluminum cones? If I consider Zaph's newer ER18, will the paper degrade over time/humidity?

**DeanP** · 28 October 2007, 01:25 Sunday

I haven't paid any duties yet when I order thru USPS. I've ordered from many places, and yes, Parts Express also. Haven't been charged a dime. :T

**Jonny_boy** · 28 October 2007, 01:41 Sunday

If the person at the other end doesnt declare the proper value or declare it as samples or as warranty replacements, then they go through tax free. Also gifts under 20$ are never taxed, otherwise if it's made in china, there is a 6% duty + proper provincial and federal sales taxes applied and billed to you from the gov.

**Paul H** · 28 October 2007, 09:15 Sunday

Taxes and duties are different.

If you live in Canada you're going to pay taxes including GST (everywhere) and provincial sales tax (everywhere but Alberta) no matter which side of the border the purchase is made from.

I've seen complaints about paying taxes on cross-border shipments, but it's never made a lot of sense to me to complain about paying taxes for shipments from the US when they're the same taxes you pay at your local stores every day.

I've made numerous purchases and never paid for "duties" from Parts Express.

Couriers will charge a fee for paperwork for cross-border shipments - they call these "customs clearing fees" or something similar. USPS charges $5 flat rate for their customs clearing fee to Canada - and many times I haven't even been billed for that.

**Jonny_boy** · 28 October 2007, 11:07 Sunday

Ok thanx for sharing your experiences with taxes but it's a little off topic. Besides, if I budget a system I can't assume my shipment will slip through without paying duties. Also the price of shipping almost doubles the price of two RS-180 AND the x-over of the Modula MT costs 50$ more then the L18 desing...

Bottom line, after re-calculating and re-checking my numbers, a Modula MT still costs 35$ more per speaker or 70$ more per pair of L18....

PS: I know about paying local sales taxes on everything that is local, you don;t have to remind me. My comparisons excludes any local sales tax. It includes the 6% duty that I should theoretically pay and also includes the shipping charges that I hate to pay.

**Brian Bunge** · 28 October 2007, 11:28 Sunday

Originally posted by Jonny_boy

Ok thanx for sharing your experiences with taxes but it's a little off topic.

You'll find that things have a tendancy to veer off and then back on topic around here. It's the nature of this community; like a group of guys getting together every week for poker, to watch the weekly ball games, etc. It's our "hang out".

**JoshK** · 28 October 2007, 12:00 Sunday

Its good to have these problems, isn't it? I mean to have choices for DIY that compete with anything out there.

I have a pair of the Modula MTMs and I can say that they don't dissapoint in any way. I sold a huge $5000 pair of speakers and replaced them with these and appart from the deeper bass they don't give anything up. In many ways they trump what I had before.

**Jonny_boy** · 28 October 2007, 13:33 Sunday

Originally posted by JoshK

Its good to have these problems, isn't it? I mean to have choices for DIY that compete with anything out there...

...I have a pair of the Modula MTMs and... ....I sold a huge $5000 pair of speakers and replaced them with these...

I have to agree that it is a nice problem to have. You make a good point my friend. I happened to have just finished reading the Modula MTM thread... whoa! that was hard on my eyes and my sore but from sitting here for such a long stretch.

I am now more confused them before but realize that the Modula MTM seam to be the "best" that can be done with the RS-180 in a floor stander and that Jon Marsh has a cult following in here. But just for one enclosure I would have to spend about 70$ on wood and hardware, 150 for drivers and about 140 for 1 x-over... about 360$/side or 720$ for a pair of Modula MTM. Not to mention I will need a new amp for the 4ohm load.

Now about me.. I am stingy and like to get the most for my buck and initially fell in love with Zaph's approach to things... Getting the most done with the least. Let's face it, better speakers don't save lives and they don't even change lives for the better... they just make good music more enjoyable on a Sunday afternoon or Friday evening and make for a good conversation piece when people are over. His L18 design sounded about right for my budget at 250$ per side for a total of 500$ for a pair of speakers. Plus the satisfaction of getting something with a nice custom finish, original and the pleasure of saying I built those!

Is it worth the extra money to go for perfection or is good enough just good enough....

PS: I never owned aluminum driver/speakers. Does aluminum sound different then paper or poly? Do they last longer them paper?

**ThomasW** · 28 October 2007, 14:23 Sunday

Threads about people building Jon's designs can be found on numerous forums. Obviously there's more chatter here since this is Jon's home forum. References to him having some form of cult status here are misplaced.

The life expectancy of any modern driver is such that it's fundamentally irrelevant what materials are used to make the cone. Different cone materials do sound different, how audible these differences are depends in the equipment in the playback chain.

And FWIW no one's saying "don't build Zaph's design". As a group we have more experience with JonMarsh's designs, so that's where we tend to steer people since the performance is known.

**joecarrow** · 28 October 2007, 14:50 Sunday

Do they sound different? I'd have to say that you'd be hard pressed in an A/B setup to tell which is which, if two designs are well executed. We're getting to the point where you're starting to hear the recording more than the speakers.

As far as how long they last- if you treat any speakers right, they ought to last just about as long as you do. The foam surrounds that were used for a while didn't work out for longevity, but they were mostly destroyed by heat, sunlight, and polluted air. Keep them indoors and out of direct light, and any of the speakers around ought to do very well for 20+ years.

I will say, however, that electrolytic capacitors do have a limited life span. I don't recommend using them in your crossover. You've probably read it lots already that they don't sound as good, but they're a concern for longevity as well.

**Nemophyle** · 29 October 2007, 06:55 Monday

Do they sound different? I'd have to say that you'd be hard pressed in an A/B setup to tell which is which, if two designs are well executed. We're getting to the point where you're starting to hear the recording more than the speakers.

that's true only for 2 vastly alike designs. Thoses two are 2 designs with 1 7" metal coned driver having the breakup approximately at the same frequency, using assymetric filter slopes to deal with phase and time alignment, both ported, and both with SOA tweeters at a bang price. What's more, drivers even have approximately the same linear excursion.

I mean, really you will have some differences, the modula MT is a little better distortion wise cause RS180 have a better motor, and you will have differences in tonal character, but this is kind of nitpicking since you can't know before you try, and even if you find someone who listened to boths , design are so in the same league that you really would be reduced to subjective opinions.

So my word is : Build the cheaper, except if you think modula mt drivers looks cooler. I'd be ready to pay 60 bucks more for looks, and i really dont like that L18 driver :P

Now my real word is : since the new ER18/27TDFC design from zaph will be the same price for you than the L18 one, but likely with better distortion than L18 design, and similar to the modula, if you're not a "metal cone believer" :B , wait for it ,it will be the best bang for buck in your case. Also as it's a "softer cone" design , the crossover may be even cheaper.

have fun !

**Jonny_boy** · 29 October 2007, 11:26 Monday

Originally posted by Nemophyle

...since the new ER18/27TDFC design from zaph .... likely with better distortion than L18 design...

Hum... has anyone published a distortion graph for the Modula MT? Could be interesting...

**cjd** · 29 October 2007, 11:40 Monday

Originally posted by Jonny_boy

Hum... has anyone published a distortion graph for the Modula MT? Could be interesting...

Distortion measurements for the drivers are readily available. It's pretty darned low. The Dayton RS line is very good in this respect. They tend to be better on the very bottom than the Seas Excel line even, but not as good on the midrange. And even here, we're talking about drivers that have some of the best distortion performance out there. Peerless makes some superb stuff too (Exclusive line), as does Scan (you also pay for it). For those of us state-side it's really hard to beat the value the Dayton RS drivers offer.

Both Zaph and Jon know their stuff and produce excellent results.

C

**JoshK** · 29 October 2007, 13:26 Monday

Build what you can afford now. You will be very happy whatever you choice, I can almost gaurantee that (provided you build them to spec). Then enjoy.

If you amp is a moderate budget amp then you'll not likely be as rewarded for spending a great deal more on the speakers as all are good performers and differences will be subtle with a budget amp.

**technimac** · 29 October 2007, 15:09 Monday

[QUOTE=Jonny_boy] Now about me.. I am stingy and like to get the most for my buck and initially fell in love with Zaph's approach to things... Getting the most done with the least. Let's face it, better speakers don't save lives and they don't even change lives for the better... they just make good music more enjoyable on a Sunday afternoon or Friday evening and make for a good conversation piece when people are over...Is it worth the extra money to go for perfection or is good enough just good enough....QUOTE]

I can't comment on what differences there may be between the designs suggested here, but I do know that my quartet of Modula MT's produce the highest quality, most accurate sound I've heard from speakers costing this little - and from those costing much, much more. My life and that of everyone who has listened to these speakers is better because of them...seriously!

So I think you'll find that hours of listening to well-recorded and processed music through either Zaph's L18 (or his upcoming ER18/27TDFC design) or Jon Marsh's Modula MT's will be well-worth whatever you initially spend. In the big scheme-of-things, a $60 -75 difference in cost for speakers of this calibre is not that significant.

A comment from Zaph as a reply to the last line in your quote might be, "This doesn't represent the best I can do... It represents the point where I stop the design, sit back and enjoy the music."

You haven't mentioned what kind of listening environment you have. With either of these designs, I would guess that a decent sub would be in order if your room is anything larger than a "small one".

Where are you located in Canada? If you live anywhere near the US/Canadian border, there are "mailbox depots" that are in business to serve people like you, charging about $5 to receive shipments and hold them until you pick them up. Where I live, five minutes away from the border, it's easy to go across, pick up your shipment and return, declaring everything. Often, you're charged far less than you would think - or they might just wave you through if you let them know these are components for building speakers, and not "finished speakers". BTW the 6% is NOT duty, it's GST.

The Canadian dollar is now trading at close to $1.04 USD, so your money, converted to $US will go a lot further than it did for me when I bought parts for my Modula MT's last year.(ouch!) The USPS shipping option is the best deal for Canadians. Avoid UPS and other "couriers" who practise legal "piracy" by charging you outrageous brokerage fees and other additional costs.

Also, keep you eyes open for DOTD promotions at PE. And it seems that around Christmas time they often have "free shipping" on orders over $99. If you recalculate the cost with that and the nominal fee charged by the Mailbox depot the price may be far closer than you previously calculated.

I've dealt with Solen in Canada, Parts Express and Madisound in the US. They're all good-to-deal-with vendors. Solen unfortunately has no competition in Canada, but phone them and see if you can pay in US dollars (because their US prices are less than their $CDN prices). Like many other businesses in Canada, they're under pressure to start treating their Canadian customers better than they have in the past.

Good Luck with your decision.

**Jonny_boy** · 29 October 2007, 15:32 Monday

I hate to come across as ignorant but I swear I am not. GST happens to be 6%, but anything built outside of US and Canada can incur duties and tariffs on top of the GST and PST. In the case of raw speaker drivers made in china, the duty IS 6%. If some of you got their shipment without paying duties, good for you!

As for shipping to the US border and driving to pick it up... that might be a fantastic solution... specially if they have that fee shipping special again.

Thanx

**Martyn** · 30 October 2007, 00:27 Tuesday

Under NAFTA, there is no duty payable on products made in the USA, but, as you say, there is duty payable on products made, for example, in China (around 6%).

Most suppliers seem to ship by UPS. This is bad news because UPS adds its own brokerage fees which can be very painful. Also, shipping is often free within the US but you usually have to pay the full for shipping cost to Canada. Some shippers, usually the smaller ones, sometimes undervalue the goods to ease the pain.

Choices (in order of preference):

1. Buy from a Canadian source if you can.
2. Buy from a US source who will ship by USPS.
3. Buy from the US but have the courier deliver to a mailbox depot on the US side of the border (if this is convenient for you).
4. Take your chances with couriers' brokerage fees.

A word on mailbox depots: my one and only experience was at the end of last year when PE did indeed offer free shipping within the US. Since I wanted a Behringer EP1500, this was a good deal (this thing is heavy). Unfortunately it was shipped in its glorious Behringer box instead of anonymous cardboard, and the mailbox depot deemed it to be "oversize" and left it sitting on his insecure loading dock overnight. It was stolen and it took me a couple of months to get a cheque from the mailbox depot. By then, of course, the shipping deal was over. Fortunately I was able to find a Canadian supplier who didn't rob me on the exchange rate, but it was still a painful lesson.

Still, there are some exceptions: Ficaraudio shipped a pair of 18" subwoofer drivers to me by USPS and charged me just the difference in shipping, and Squeezeboxes and Oppo players are becoming available in Canada at tolerable prices. The times they are a-changing...

**Jonasz** · 30 October 2007, 02:00 Tuesday

If we Europeans buy from PE it ends up with at least double the price, so consider yourself lucky to live in Canada. :E

Btw, aren't the Dayton drivers made in China?

**technimac** · 30 October 2007, 02:01 Tuesday

Originally posted by Jonny_boy

As for shipping to the US border and driving to pick it up... that might be a fantastic solution... specially if they have that free shipping special again.
Thanx

So, where in Canada are you located?

**WillyD** · 30 October 2007, 02:10 Tuesday

Btw, aren't the Dayton drivers made in China?

Well..some are made in the PRC and others in Taiwan.

**Finleyville** · 30 October 2007, 06:20 Tuesday

I've built Zaph's L18's and am VERY happy with the results. You can check them out here.

**Jonny_boy** · 30 October 2007, 09:33 Tuesday

Finleyville,

nice work on the finish. Do they have any kind of sibilance? How are the highs?

**cjd** · 30 October 2007, 10:18 Tuesday

Originally posted by Jonny_boy

Finleyville,

nice work on the finish. Do they have any kind of sibilance? How are the highs?

No. Highs are smooth. They're what first got me looking seriously at the Seas tweeters.

Sibilance. Around here? Really! I'm astounded you even bring that up.

**Jonny_boy** · 30 October 2007, 10:34 Tuesday

LOL, no offense intended. Just had a bad experience with metal tweeter when I was looking for car speakers.

**Finleyville** · 30 October 2007, 10:49 Tuesday

Originally posted by Jonny_boy

Finleyville,

nice work on the finish. Do they have any kind of sibilance? How are the highs?

Thank you. They sound very clear without being bright. No harsh sibilance at all. I have used the Dayton RS28 in other projects and loved them until I listened to these Seas H1212's. Now the Seas are my favorite. I did audition the L18's against a set of NatP MTM's utilizing the RS28's. I gave up some lower end to the dual woofers of the Nat's but I liked the mids and highs better on my Seas L18's. The other people that listened to the L18's all were impressed with the amount of bass the single mids put out. My brother the first time he heard them thought I had a small sub with them. I do not think you would be disappointed with the L18.

**Brian Bunge** · 30 October 2007, 11:13 Tuesday

Can you tell us what wood and what red dye you used on the front baffles of your speakers? Those are gorgeous!

**Finleyville** · 30 October 2007, 16:35 Tuesday

Originally posted by Brian Bunge

Can you tell us what wood and what red dye you used on the front baffles of your speakers? Those are gorgeous!

Let's try to keep this thread on topic out of respect for the OP. I will add that information in my original thread. Thank you for the kind words though!

**technimac** · 05 November 2007, 00:27 Monday

Originally posted by Jonny_boy

As for shipping to the US border and driving to pick it up... that might be a fantastic solution... specially if they have that fee shipping special again.

Hey Jonny boy,
PE just instituted "free shipping" to the continental USA until Jan 3, 2008.
You can take advantage of it by using one of the "mailbox outlets" at a border crossing that's the closest to you.

Just curious about which one that would be?

If you can let us know, someone else on the board may have done the same thing and can offer some tips to help make this shipping method work for you. :T

Looking for a 2-way, reading alot, eyes and head hurt now!

Looking for a 2-way, reading alot, eyes and head hurt now!

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