$250 Shootout

[ch83575]

I am just wondering if there is any interest in doing a "shootout" with some of the budget designs out there. Something where we could collect one of each of the well respected budget designs posted here and elsewhere in the DIY community and take a complete and CONSISTENT set of measurements of each of them. There could also be a listening panel, but I think most people here would be more interested in measurements than listening notes. I chose $250 just to get the idea out there, but the reason I picked it is that the Paradigm Atom comes in at exactly $250 these days and I feel that it is a very competent speaker... not blow your socks off or anything, but definitely enjoyable. In this way we could conclusively compare the designs not only to each other but to what you can get commercially for the money (another thing people starting out in DIY are distinctly interested in).

I think something like this could be great fun for designers (it would surely be scheduled far enough out to allow the entry of new designs) but also very beneficial to people just starting who can find all of these designs, but are always asking which one is best.

Just a little idea I have been thinking about, perhaps it has been done already and I am just unawares, or maybe people just wouldn't be very interested in such a low price point. The two designs that jump out at me as qualifying are JonMarsh's Modula MT and Zaph's BAMTM, but I am sure there are other established designs that would qualify as well.

So, sound interesting to anybody else?

[Dennis H]

The bigger DIY gatherings, such as the upcoming one in Iowa, usually break the 'competition' down into price categories.

[Undefinition]

Dennis is right. $250 is the price ceiling for the "budget" category. Some amazing entries last year at Iowa.

http://home.mchsi.com/~dpeterson/Iowadiy.html

As you may know, the Modula MT won. I built a pair of Cinderellas and am floored by how good they sound for the price.

Anyway, getting "CONSISTENT" measurements, as you say, seems like a near-impossible task. Would you find a location where people could bring their designs? Thing is, DIY events are so hectic that it would be tough to have a measurement setup. But if you're willing to bring a measurement rig to Iowa this year, I'm sure some folks'll let you measure (myself included).

ON THE OTHER HAND: what would be nice is a list of current DIY projects that are doable (that is, no obsolete drivers), arranged by price. As of now, it's all in my head.

[cjd]

My MTM took Chicago the year before (with an excellent TM with, uh... the Seas 27TBFCG and RS150 coming in VERY close behind... like .02 point or something crazy). Definitely something that happens regularly, and quite a bit of fun.

C

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Guys,

Here's break down of the classes for this years event which were also what we had last year. Darn diver and crossover parts prices keep going up so the budget ceiling keeps raising.

Super budget 0 - $150.00
Budget $150 - $300
Midrange $300 - $600
Unlimited $600+

FWIW, I had a pair of Paradigm Titans that I used for surrounds for many years. I brought them to the 2004 Iowa DIY Event to use as a commercial comparable in the budget class. Every entry in the budget class put them to shame. They've since been passed to one of my children who also uses them for surrounds.

Paradigm Titans

I agree with the other posters. The Modula M/T's or Natalie P's will be miles above anything commercial that is even remotely close in price. You really need to get into the $1000-$1500 range to compare to DIY budget class speakers, IMHO.

Jim

[Netman]

Budget (<$250/pair) Speaker Designs

Here's a by-no-means-exhaustive list I compiled for my own project research:

Dreydels - Dayton RS-150, Seas 27TDFC designer: Jeff Babgy

Images not available

ZBM4 - Zaph|Audio 4 Bargain Mini MCM 55-1853, Aura NT1 designer: John "Zaph" Krutke

http://zaphaudio.com/ZBM4.html

Bargain Aluminum MTM Dayton DA-175, Seas 27TBFCG designer: John "Zaph" Krutke

http://zaphaudio.com/BAMTM.html

Amethyst Micro Monitor Tang Band W4-1052SD, Dayton ND20FA-6 designer: Lou C

http://www.lonesaguaro.com/speakers/amethyst/amethyst.htm

Cryolite Monitor Dayton RS-180, Bohlander Graebner NEO 3PDR deisgner: Lou C

http://www.lonesaguaro.com/speakers/DaytonRS7/Cryolite.htm

Ruby (all-Aluminum) Dayton RS-150-8, Vifa D25AG-35 designer: Lou C

http://www.lonesaguaro.com/speakers/RSBoys/Ruby.htm

Lineup series Tang Band W4-1337SA, fullrange, Vifa D26NC55 or Fountek NeoCD3 designer: Jed Kunz

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26939

RS180 Modula MT Dayton RS-180, Seas 27TDFC or Dayton RS-28a designer: Jon Marsh

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13154

Natalie P MTM Dayton RS-180, Dayton RS-28a designer: Evil Twin

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13969

Cinderella's Dayton Classic 8, Hi-Vi B3N, Dayton ND-20A designer: Wayne Wendel

http://www.geocities.com/cc00541/Cinderella.html

Microbe Dayton RS125S-8, Tangband T25-1166S designer: Roman J. Bednarek

http://www.rjbaudio.com/Microbe/microbe.html

Microbe SE Dayton RS125S-8, Seas Seas 22TAF/G designer: Roman J. Bednarek

http://www.rjbaudio.com/Microbe%20SE/microbe%20SE.html

Please excuse the formatting... HTH!
john

[ch83575]

Wow, I had no idea the events were so well organized. Iowa is a little bit of a hike for me and I have a big photo shoot that weekend, and the local event - I think its called AudioKarma or something like that - always seems to be on a weekend that I am out of town. I will have to start planing further ahead to get to one of these, they sound pretty cool.

Netman: thanks for the list, it looks pretty comprehensive!

My main motivation in this was to get some sort of database going of consistent measurements of some of the completed systems. It still seems to me that if you are unable to attend one of the events and hear for yourself, then everything available is pretty much hearsay.

I agree that measuring at one of the events sounds difficult at best, I was hoping people might be interested in delivering or mailing the speakers to me a few weeks before such an event, then I could have time to measure them, and I would go to the event and bring all of the speakers with me. Originally I was hoping somebody with more experience might think it sounded like such a good idea they would step in and say that they would measure the designs, but I feel competent to make consistent measurements. I am crap at actually getting my speakers to sound the way I want, but I think I am pretty good at measuring them :W . If I was to do the measurements the event would have to be KarmaFest, in southfield MI... I checked, and it is on 5/3 - 5/4 and we would probably have to rent the room or something, I don't really know how it works, but it isn't just DIY, there are manufacturers as well.

Jim Holtz: I am not suprized that it is not hard to beat the Paradigms, after all, it should be since we dont have to worry about a profit margin in our $250!

I also have a pair of Linn Katans that I can do the measurements on for reference against a $1200 pair, but they measure really weird. See here: Linn Tests. These Linn test are abbreviated, we could come up with a better list of things to measure. I also don't like the way I did the distortion plots at all, but again, that could be ironed out with some feedback before anything got measured. The guys at the local hi-fi shop are really cool, and they would probably loan me a different pair in the same price range to test if people wanted a different reference.

So, like I said, if people were interested, I could do the measurements and bring them to KarmaFest or just mail them back. I could also host the results on my nifty new audio website (don't go there yet, not much to see): www.cmhaudio.com. I am not rich, so neither can I just build the whole list or pay for unlimited amounts of shipping, but I am willing to put in my part if others like this idea. Also, I am still very open to somebody with more experience stepping up and taking the reigns, no ego problem here, but finding people with extra time is sometimes like trying to find an honest politician.

[Jim Holtz]

The problem with doing measurements at the events is there simply isn't time. We used to try to do that at Iowa but interest dropped off quickly. There is a possibility there will be measuring equipment at this years Iowa event, however.

The post with the list of designs will all have measurements if you go to each link just as all of the designs in the mission accomplished section are based on actual measurements in the cabinet. The feedback on each design from other builders is a pretty darn good recommendation, IMHO.

HTH

Jim

[cjd]

FWIW, that list is missing my MTM: http://www.eldamar.net/audio/rs150mtm/

I also don't see some of the other RS150 TM's including Mudjock's (my competition at the Chicago event).

Thus, the problem with such lists: they're SO hard to keep current and all-inclusive.

C

[Undefinition]

Yeah, I can't help but notice that your list is biased towards HTGuide.com ;-)

Seriously, though, you can't discount Wayne Jaeschke's designs, since not only are the drivers still available, but for many of us, building one of his designs was a "gateway drug." Sure, maybe the D3s are a bit of a "dinosaur" compared to the Natalie P's--but come on, people, it's only been like 5 years! The same thing goes for Curt C and Dennis Murphy's "budget" designs.

With unlimited time and money, I'd build 'em all!

In all seriousness, I understand your desire for consistency amongst comparing designs. But sometimes, you just gotta take the plunge. (And boy, if you ever DESIGN a pair of speakers, you're certainly taking a plunge) If you don't like the sound, just cannibalize it for parts and make something else. I'm reminded of Dan Neubecker, who said that the first speakers he built were the Dr. K MTM, but he found that he didn't like them. You might notice those same drivers ended up in his omnidirectional designs.

I'd be willing to organize a repository of links to price-categorized designs on my web page. But the designers would have to tell me the price... I don't have the time to price them out or anything.

http://undefinition.googlepages.com/diy

[JonMarsh]

No real argument to your comments, we think there are a lot of paths to musical nirvana.

OTOH, 5 years is a LONG time in DIY speakers - 5 years ago there were no Dayton Reference series drivers, Focal and Dynaudio were still selling to the DIY crowd, hardly anyone had seen any Scanspeak revelators, and dipole DIY speakers were virtually unheard of.

Just look to Zaphaudio or MarkK's site to see what the evolution of driver performance alone has brought. The RS180 brings distortion levels once the exclusive domain of the small Scanspeak drivers, and at as little as 1/4 the price.

Some of the real "classic" designs will hang in there, especially using some of the older drivers with simpler crossover requirements. But will they perform as do the newer designs? There's a reason why Zaph, Dennis Murphy, myself and others are doing new designs- much better drivers for the money.

~Jon