Rears and surounds to go with Jim Holtz's Statements

[zzzz]

Good morning everyone.

Now that my first and only DIY project - a 311 Litre sub - has been installed (but not calibrated or EQd yet) I'm looking to get into a long-term building project.

Ultimately I need, err... want, a pair of Statements as fronts in a 7.1 HT setup. For financial reasons I don't want to build these until about a year from now. In the meanwhile I'd like to try building rears and dipole/bipole surrounds that would work well (timbre matched is the term I think I'm looking for) with the statements.

I currently have an energy connoisseur c-5 as fronts, the matching energy switchable bipole/dipole surrounds (which I think sound excellent) and the matching cc-1 center.

This is probably also good from a technical point of view as I can practice and make less expensive mistakes before starting on the statements - which could be a costly mistake if made badly.

Can anyone suggest designs that I should consider for the matching surrounds and rears?

Many thanks!

[Edge540]

This is actually a very good question. I am planning a dedicated home theater that id like to use the Statements for LCR. I was thinking the mini-Statements for surrounds but then remembered the open backed mids, which wouldnt work too well if mounted in a column. I am now starting to ponder using Jons new Modula NeoD, flush mounted in a vertical, circular column for remaining four surrounds. Undecided as of yet, but interested in suggestions.

[Jed]

There's an MTM, MT, and Fullrange in the works using the same drivers as the Statements, minus the RS woofers, in this thread: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=26939

[Jim Holtz]

Jed's new projects would compliment the Statements very well for a small surround. The Mini Statements would be a near perfect match if you have the room for a conventional sized floor standing speaker or as a good sized (28" tall) monitor. They would require more "breathing room" behind the speaker due to the open back mid of course.

Let's talk about surround speakers for a moment. IF you're designing a system for multi channel music, the requirements are a bit more critical but not a lot. Home theater surrounds are effects channels that differences in speaker design with minor differences in tonality will have little if any audible impact. What is the difference in sound of a landing jet aircraft between two different design speakers? My point is the movie sound track is designed to support the video rather than provide an accurate sound track that can be referenced.

IMHO, the most critical factor in selecting a surround speaker is it's off axis dispersion, bass capability and dynamic ability. I use a design called the JH3 for surrounds that is a monitor sized 3-way that utilizes a Morel MDT-12 tweeter, Dayton (original) mid dome and a Vifa M21 8" woofer. This is an older design that was created several years ago that has been surpassed in sound quality by the new RS series drivers. However, the broad dispersion characteristics of the mid dome and good bass capability of the M21 allow it to create a "bubble" of sound that envelopes you in a movie. I've used them with previous monitor sized speakers, line arrays and the Statements as surrounds and have had perfect integration with all of the speakers listed. I find no reason to change or upgrade them.

All that said, I really dislike multi channel music. Sitting in the band when listening to music is just wrong to me. I want to be in the audience. I'm 2-channel for music.

My $.02 worth...

Jim

[NateTTU]

You bring up some excellent points Jim. I too am looking for some surrounds for your statments and was consider Jon's new MTs. However you mentioned that some of the important things for a surround is to have good dispersion characteristics which the MT may have but also good bass capability. I think the bass capability will be the hardest thing to match when looking for surrounds. I was wondering if it would be possible to use your center statments in a vertical orientation to use as surrounds? What would the bass extension be? I'm really looking to crossover to my sonosub around 50hz to keep away from any localization sound waves coming from the sub.

[Jim Holtz]

You bring up some excellent points Jim. I too am looking for some surrounds for your statements and was consider Jon's new MTs. However you mentioned that some of the important things for a surround is to have good dispersion characteristics which the MT may have but also good bass capability. I think the bass capability will be the hardest thing to match when looking for surrounds. I was wondering if it would be possible to use your center statments in a vertical orientation to use as surrounds? What would the bass extension be? I'm really looking to crossover to my sonosub around 50hz to keep away from any localization sound waves coming from the sub.

Good questions. When I said good bass capability, I really didn't mean to match the bass of the Statements. It'd be nice but not too practical for most people from a cabinet size perspective. My JH3's have a F3 of 65 Hz. sealed and a F6 of around 50 Hz. which provides pretty good bass for surrounds. I think anything with bass into the 50-70 Hz. range will satisfy most people. Definitely if they run the surrounds in the small mode.

I wouldn't recommend the center in a vertical orientation. It was designed to be used horizontally which would not lend itself well to a vertical orientation. The Mini's use the same drivers just in a T/M/W/W format which stretches the length of the cabinet a bit.

Honestly, I think Jed's new designs or Jon's Modula M/T's would do a great job as surround speakers. Plus, they're both designing for mounting flat on the wall with no BSC.

HTH

Jim

[zzzz]

I use a design called the JH3 for surrounds that is a monitor sized 3-way that utilizes a Morel MDT-12 tweeter, Dayton (original) mid dome and a Vifa M21 8" woofer. This is an older design that was created several years ago that has been surpassed in sound quality by the new RS series drivers.

Thanks for your response Jim. Do you have the JH3 design posted somewhere? I searched but cannot find specifics of that design. All I could find is a reference to a set someone sold.

Nevermind... here's the design courtesy of mr google http://www.audiodiycentral.com/sd300_jh3.shtml

Estimated cost to be about $340 plus cabinets. Not exactly cheap. Drivers still available though, which is a plus!

<blushinshamegraemlin>

[zzzz]

There's an MTM, MT, and Fullrange in the works using the same drivers as the Statements, minus the RS woofers, in this thread: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=26939

Thanks Jed... this is the 2nd time you answered my question - I was recently looking to build some rears -- which started all this thinking.

I look forward to hearing reviews of the speakers... they look good on paper, I'm sure they'll sound good too.

Do you have an estimate of cost for the speakers? I couldn't read through all of your thread and may have missed it.

Thanks!

[Jed]

Do you have an estimate of cost for the speakers?
Thanks!

For the W4 and Vifa MT (lineup 4D) figure around $200 (pair) minus wood. For the MTM, add another $110. For the ribbons add $120 difference.

[Jim Holtz]

Thanks for your response Jim. Do you have the JH3 design posted somewhere? I searched but cannot find specifics of that design. All I could find is a reference to a set someone sold.

Nevermind... here's the design courtesy of mr google http://www.audiodiycentral.com/sd300_jh3.shtml

Estimated cost to be about $340 plus cabinets. Not exactly cheap. Drivers still available though, which is a plus!

<blushinshamegraemlin>

I would not recommend building JH3's today. They're not bad at all but there are other designs with newer drivers that are better. Actually the ones I sold were JH3 Reference which were based on completely different drivers and cost a whole lot more than the JH3's.

I'd suggest either taking a look at Jed's upcoming design or a design based on the RS52 mid dome. I really like mid dome designs for surround speakers. Also, Jon's Modula M/T's would be a good choice too.

HTH

Jim

[JaxLax]

What about the HI-VI M4N MIDWOOFER / PEERLESS 811852 TWEETER SURROUND SPEAKERS from http://soundhobby.com/speaker_projects.htm ?

[Jim Holtz]

What about the HI-VI M4N MIDWOOFER / PEERLESS 811852 TWEETER SURROUND SPEAKERS from http://soundhobby.com/speaker_projects.htm ?

Take this for what it's worth because it's just my opinion. A bi-polar speaker was advocated for Dolby Prologic when the rear channels were mono, but with Dolby Digital and the many variations, the channels are discrete and to the best of my knowledge, point source speakers are recommended.

I wouldn't select that speaker design for a surround but that just me.

Jim

[Sefferdog]

Honestly, I think Jed's new designs or Jon's Modula M/T's would do a great job as surround speakers. Plus, they're both designing for mounting flat on the wall with no BSC.

HTH

Jim

Can't comment on Jed's design but I can comment on the Statements and the Modula MT's as surrounds. I am currently running the Statements in the front with no center, and the Modula MT's as rears and they integrate wonderfully for both HT duties and 5-channel audio. You wouldn't go wrong with this setup. I am going to be replacing the Modulas with the Mini Statements as soon as Curt and Wayne and Jim get the crossover finalized and posted/emailed/telepathed to me, and adding the Statement center when it comes down the pike as well. As good as the Statements sound it is hard to imagine a room full of them!

Take care.!!

[zzzz]

Do you all mean these MTs ????? (http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=13154).

They don't have the same drivers as the statements, shouldn't that be a requirement?

I am probably missing something, no make that a lot of things!

[Jim Holtz]

Do you all mean these MTs ????? (http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=13154).

They don't have the same drivers as the statements, shouldn't that be a requirement?

I am probably missing something, no make that a lot of things!

Yes, that's the Modula M/T's we're talking about. Wade is using them as surrounds with excellent success.

It depends on who you talk to regarding their view on having identical speakers in all five positions or the same drivers etc. It was also why I made the remark that multi channel music would have slightly different requirements than home theater but not much.

I've never watched a movie or concert on DVD that I'd be able to identify driver differences in surround speakers that were competently designed. I would also doubt that differences could be heard listening to multi channel music either. The surrounds are effects channels. The mains and center should be pretty darn well matched for best sound but even then, the center is the dominate speaker for home theater.

If you'd like an identical driver match, Jed has a Fountek 3.0/W4 design in the works that should be an excellent match. It would require setting surrounds to small rather than large however.

HTH

Jim

[zzzz]

Yes, that's the Modula M/T's we're talking about. Wade is using them as surrounds with excellent success.

It depends on who you talk to regarding their view on having identical speakers in all five positions or the same drivers etc. It was also why I made the remark that multi channel music would have slightly different requirements than home theater but not much.

I've never watched a movie or concert on DVD that I'd be able to identify driver differences in surround speakers that were competently designed. I would also doubt that differences could be heard listening to multi channel music either. The surrounds are effects channels. The mains and center should be pretty darn well matched for best sound but even then, the center is the dominate speaker for home theater.

If you'd like an identical driver match, Jed has a Fountek 3.0/W4 design in the works that should be an excellent match. It would require setting surrounds to small rather than large however.

HTH

Jim

Yes, indeed this does help. Many thanks to all for your suggestions. The Modula's or Jed's surrounds when published and reviewed may well do the trick!