Filling a missing niche in accomplished designs

[Hdale85]

Umm the statements are very much different. The statements are open back mids not to mention are huge. These would use a different tweeter and a smaller woofer most likely. These are aimed at being a small performance speaker. Completely different design goals.

[---k---]

Jed, sounds great. I wish you well. I hope your project is very successful. My only advice is to build something you really want to build. In my experience (in real life, not here), when people are asked what they want, the most vocal people are the people who like to dream and debate but will never buy (build) anything.

[Jed]

Keep the ideas coming guys. I'll draw some designs and post in a bit of some of the designs people have mentioned. I think it'll help to have pictures of designs so people can not confuse them with some others that have been completed already.

[spidrman]

I know I'm late posting to this thread but what I'd like to see is similar to the requests for a "smaller, cheap" surround speaker. But I'll be a little more specific in what I'd like to have.

Smaller = "not as deep" ... I could deal easily with the height and width of the Modula MT but if the depth was less that would help a lot. These would be strictly for use as surrounds or "whole house audio" where you're not as concerned with absolute sound quality but you know that Bose sucks ... :B The interest in the W4-1337SA in a smaller MTM also sounds great!

Cheap = $250 per speaker or less. (less is more)

It would be really great if these surrounds had a "big brother" design for use as mains so that it would be a matching system.

One last thing ... An impedance more friendly to receivers. It doesn't have to be 8 ohms but some of the designs here drop below 4 ohms. Something with a minimum impedance of 5 or 6 would be great.


On the other hand I'd LOVE to see a design for a kinda short (60" maximum), kinda cheap ($500 each) line array geared toward home theater (this is HTGuide.com after all ). Unless I'm completely wrong, everything I've read about line arrays tells me I could achieve a much larger "sweet spot".


And in case I've not said it before ... This forum ROCKS! :T The contributors here have donated so much time, effort and information that I am absolutely amazed and impressed.

[Jed]

I know I'm late posting to this thread . . .

Not at all, I only started the thread last night!


All of your ideas seem good to me. The line array is $$$ though.

[Jed]

Jed, sounds great. I wish you well. I hope your project is very successful. My only advice is to build something you really want to build. In my experience (in real life, not here), when people are asked what they want, the most vocal people are the people who like to dream and debate but will never buy (build) anything.

Point taken. So all you guys that are lurking and are planning a speaker, just haven't seen that speaker you've been thinking about yet... now's your chance.

[spidrman]

Point taken. So all you guys that are lurking and are planning a speaker, just haven't seen that speaker you've been thinking about yet... nows your chance.

I HAVE to build something. The old Jamo speakers that I'm using right now are tiny little things that I know suck.

If I was going to build something today it would be Natalie P's for mains, the existing WMTW center and Modula MT's (four of them) for surrounds. I'm sure it would blow me away. I'd just love to have more options for surrounds. There seems to be no end in sight to designs for mains and since my mains go behind my AT screen, I have the option of using just about any LR speaker as a vertical center channel.

I'll be building mains first and surrounds second. Not to get off topic but I'm assuming that three identical MTM's, all vertical, behind my AT screen would work just as well as two vertical MTM's and some other horizontal center?

[jdb]

- High efficiency project. Something in the 100dB/1W/1m class

I would love to see some high efficiency designs also. Maybe even *gasp* horns (ducks and runs).

[PoorboyMike]

Not to get off topic but I'm assuming that three identical MTM's, all vertical, behind my AT screen would work just as well as two vertical MTM's and some other horizontal center?

That's my plan if I ever get my new house built. Only I plan on each one sitting on top of bass bins so I can have that high impact slam of a live performance. Not sure which MTM yet though. I really like my NatP's but the new RS52 design will sound even better, but cost more.

For the upstairs living room though, a compact W4 or RS125 based system sounds like a winner.

[niget2002]

I'm moving into a house soon and have every intention of building the WMTW/TMWW LCR from the "finished" thread.

I'm in the same group that's looking for a good "on the wall" design for the rears.

Of course, I'll be starting with a sub (still haven't picked a design) and then working my way around the room, so I have some time for someone to develop a good rear design. Along the way I plan on using Speaker Workshop to test my drivers and speakers to help learn about speaker design. If there isn't a design when I'm ready, I may give a crack at it myself

Good luck in whatever design you choose to go after.

[Jed]

A few quick sketches of some of the designs that have come up and I think I can tackle without too many issues.

Horns, open baffles, line arrays, will have to be put on hold for another time. This speaker design/s will be compact, cheap, and fun to build!

I'll keep working on the sketches as more develops and drivers are finalized.

Some driver costs with good value and have been mentioned as potentials for these designs.

RS125-4 or RS125-8 = $22
Tang Band W4-1337SA 4" Titanium Driver =$54
Seas ER15RLY (H1455) 5" Reed Paper Cone Woofer = $55
D26NC55 1" Textile dome tweeter $28.90
Seas 27TDFC (H1189) Textile dome $32.45

[powens]

I bet you would like the W4 as it doesn't have a typical metal cone distortion profile. That said, we can definitely entertain paper drivers. If you have a specific design in mind, let us know.

I can't say I have a specific design in mind. To help give you an idea of my preferences, I recently built Roman's Asterion design and these are the most enjoyable speakers (to me) that I have heard yet.

However, as a general idea, I think a design using one of the Seas paper woofers would be nice. I think it could also be interesting to try something other than the 27tdfc for the tweeter. I know it is a good tweeter, I like it myself, but it could be a nice change to try something different.

Thanks for entertaining my, and everyone else's ideas. Your time and energy is greatly appreciated.

[sprint_9]

Heres a couple draw ups of some ideas Ive had over the last few months of lurking. I dont know if they would work properly especially the Mini Line but its just something I thought would be cool.

Image not available

[geoffstgermaine]

I've been wanting to build a line array for a long time, so a nice, moderately sized line array would be very interesting to me.

[J Walker]

Jed:

I would love to see a budget'ish "MMTMMW". Just because I am putting at least 4x 15's (maybey4x 18's) in my HT room. Need something to keep up!

:twisted:

J Walker.

[Ray Collins]

I would like to see something using ribbon or planar tweeters.
Line Arrays are also of interest. Wish you would reconsider the OB route.

Ray

[Jed]

Tally

Okay, so here is a very rough tally of the requests as people mentioned their needs. If I missed someone or this seems a bit off let me know your request so I can add it to the tally. Then, after all is calculated, I'll start putting together more info. One possibility for an OB would be to have the mids in OB and woofer in a monopole. Not the best technically, but a compromise I could make and people seem to like the OB/ Open back mid thing.

1) Open Baffle-- 4 requests
2) Small MTM-- 6
3) Small MT-- 7
4) MTMW narrow with side woofer- - 4
5) Smallish 3-way with dome mid/TB -- 4
6) Small Fullrange- - 3
7) Efficient design---6
8.) Paper woofer---- 1
9) MMTMM(W) narrow side woofer ---5
10) Inwall--- 1
11) Ultracheap---1

[Scottg]

Skimming through this I see a few "trends" that pop-out:

1. Small speaker
2. Modest expense (but likely not cheap and with excellent performance)
3. Capable of being used for surrounds
4. Using the Tangband titanium driver (which doesn't break-up like a metal driver)

# 4 *mostly* meets the requirements of #s 1 & 2. It won't however have the necessary dispersion at higher freq.s for #3 (which implies multi-listener and multiple horizontal axis's). To get excellent high freq. dispersion you'll need to look to a very narrow element driver like HiVi planar. Tonally such a driver should also match well with the Tangband and allow for a moderately low crossover freq..

As far as "mostly" is concerned - an equalization circuit for baffle step compensation will not only throw away a lot of power, but will likely sound inferior. This suggests an "infinite baffle" - and there was at least one in-wall suggestion made. A complement design could be a large shallow radius on-wall version.

The real trick to either design is avoiding the problem that the Statement design originally had - i.e. reduce internal cabinet reflections without a lossy material effecting decay character. For that you need to look at Temp Coat or:

http://hytechsales.com/prodsc.html

[Johnloudb]

High Efficiency!!!

Jed!!

I need a inexpensive, High Efficiency (+90dB) for my 10 watt class A integrated amp. It will put 20 watts into for ohms. I like planars/ribbons, dipoles. good bass. I know you'll pick a winner. :T

suggestions:

Tweeters:
B-G NEO8-PDR (93dB) dipole
or
Hi-Vi RT1C-A
or
Dayton PT2B-8 (94dB)

Woofers:
2 (RS150 or RS125 or RS180)

[tktran]

High quality wall-mounted speakers that look good next to a big plasma/LCDs. It's sure to take off IMHO.

http://www.system-audio.com/_en-GB(3593)/products/compact%20speakers/SA%20exact/technical%20information

[zacjones]

Here's one more vote for an MMTMM(W) narrow side woofer! I've got all the drivers and crossover components for the RS/Seas towers and WMTMW center tucked away in a closet. I like the idea of the narrow speaker and the bigger driver tucked away on the side. Much more pleasing to my eye. Thanks!

[Curly Woods]

High quality wall-mounted speakers that look good next to a big plasma/LCDs. It's sure to take off IMHO.

http://www.system-audio.com/_en-GB(3...%20information

This gets my vote :-)

[cjd]

If you go more than two mids with a central tweeter, you're really talking at least a 2.5 way arrangement.

Especially for a center.

Which I'm working on (RS150) :P

C

[Jonasz]

What about a small 3-way with Neo3/RS52/RS225 in a sealed box? Could oc be used as a br-box too.

Build whatever you want as long as it contains RS52's... :B

Btw would be good if it's a regular square box for us boxbuildingimpaired.

[wildfire99]

One niche I haven't seen filled well is ultra-cheap DIY, something around $50 a speaker, as a step-in product for people with saws, looking at HTIB's at Best Buy.

That, and some tiered subwoofer designs, like budget (8" driver), low end (12"), mid (15"), and uber (18"), to go with all these satellite designs.

[opt-e]

+1 for a small MT and MTM using the 4" Tangband.

[sprint_9]

C, yea I thought you mentioned a 2.5 way somewhere in the PM's Ive recieved back from you but didnt want to stirr up any of your work as its not my work to stirr up. I really think a 2 or 2.5 way tower to go along with C's center would be cool, something like I have illustrated on P. 2 with a woofer or sub on the side. But that just my opinion, it would be cool to see a line well documented as well but that is spendy. Any of the projects you had listed look like good ones to watch over.

[Hdale85]

The 50 dollar range is really hard to get real good performance that many of us would be happy with. There is the B3S thats on Zaphs site though its definitely in that price range.

[Ray Collins]

If you get it too cheap it is not worth building; save a little longer to afford better drivers. Zaph has several budget projects that do a supurb job of ringing the max out of cheap drivers. The $500 to $750 area for drivers allows a lot of latitude for driver selection and application flexibility.

Ray

[Hdale85]

I agree. I always say why get something your going to replace before too long. Save up a little longer or invest a little more money and get something that will last and that you will be happy with for a much longer period.

[Ray Collins]

Dougie085....exactly. The sting of the cost will quickly fade with the continued pleasure of use; besides, making chicken salad out of chicken---- gives very limited pleasure. Pride in a completed project should carry at least a little swager factor; after all, you have your name on it!?

Ray

[cobbpa]

I kinda like that idea of an efficient design. I remember a while back there was some discussion of the dynamics efficient drivers can bring to the table, so that would be something fun to play with. That might bring in the opportunity for a ribbon, as some wanted that.

[Jed]

update- started to prioritize- don't interpret this as a final list or anything yet. Still have to decide on finalizing driver selection.

1) Small MT-- 8 (Could use TB W4 and ??? for tweeter)
2) Small MTM-- 7 (TB W4 or RS125 and ??? for tweeter)
3) Efficient design---6 (This could be combined with MMTMMW RS125 or W4, if W4 I may need a few drivers sent to me as I can't afford 8 of TB just for testing purposes. Sealed RS270 or RS225 or Usher 8137 woofer)
4) MMTMM(W) narrow side woofer ---5
5) Open Baffle-- 4 requests
6) MTMW narrow with side woofer- - 4 (this could be the same as MTM with a bass bin or #2)
7) Smallish 3-way with dome mid/TB -- 4
8 ) Small Fullrange- - 3
9) Paper woofer---- 1
10) Inwall--- 1
11) Ultracheap---1

OK, so #1 and #2 will be first on the chopping block.


Please recommend drivers that you would like to see in these designs.

Does everyone seem to want to use the TB W4 titanium driver?

I could probably use just about any tweeter, but a shielded one might be nice for those people who want to put the speakers near a CRT.

[robseyes]

Another vote for a small MT & MTM. It would be interesting if they were a high quality design for the space challenged. An on-wall variation to the x-over would be cool too (I know I know audiofile blasphemy). Perhaps a small on wall 3 way with the aforementioned Tang Band mid & either an rs-180 for the woofer or one of those GR Xbl-2 woofers (not sure which tweeter to use). Just some ideas...=)

[Jed]

For the MT and MTM I'll have BSC and Non-BSC versions.

[wildfire99]

I agree. I always say why get something your going to replace before too long.

What I wanted just this weekend was a replacement for a temp computer setup. I ended up getting a $50 Logitech 5.1 system a year ago and it's just not cutting it. It would be sweet to take a 4" $25 woofer and a $12 tweeter and do a simple 2-way, so I could build out 5 channels for $250 (plus sub, or around what you're pay for a cheap HTIB with a receiver). Quality is nice, but in that niche at $60 a pair people are going to be looking at Best Buy Insignia's and asking why you want them to pay more just to listen to music?

And why not beat the $199 (8") X-Sub? If you can build your own box, certainly there has to be some savings somewhere? Every time I try to get into 'cheap' DIY I am faced with the cold reality that 90% of kits are >$200/pair, so there are no 'simple and dirty' garage speakers or computer setups aside from single 3" driver ones (which have too many compromises). If Logitech could do 5.1 with a powered sub for $50, DIY can too!

[ahaik]

What I wanted just this weekend was a replacement for a temp computer setup. I ended up getting a $50 Logitech 5.1 system a year ago and it's just not cutting it. It would be sweet to take a 4" $25 woofer and a $12 tweeter and do a simple 2-way, so I could build out 5 channels for $250 (plus sub, or around what you're pay for a cheap HTIB with a receiver). Quality is nice, but in that niche at $60 a pair people are going to be looking at Best Buy Insignia's and asking why you want them to pay more just to listen to music?

And why not beat the $199 (8") X-Sub? If you can build your own box, certainly there has to be some savings somewhere? Every time I try to get into 'cheap' DIY I am faced with the cold reality that 90% of kits are >$200/pair, so there are no 'simple and dirty' garage speakers or computer setups aside from single 3" driver ones (which have too many compromises). If Logitech could do 5.1 with a powered sub for $50, DIY can too!

Add some crossover components and you are looking at a quite more expensive design. For me, if I spend all that time and energy, I rather pay a little more and get much better results. Also the cheaper drivers usually need more crossover work.

How about some oudoor speakers for the porch, No phase plug and no port I guess.

[Brian Walter]

I'm a little late to the party, but I'd like to see an open baffle project, at least for the mids. Something like an OB Modula MTM with a sealed or ported bass bin. I realize that you have already rulled the OB out, but I'm voting anyway. Otherwise, a small MT or MTM like the Microbe, but with the TB W4 titanium would be my second choice.

Brian Walter

[Johnloudb]

Efficient OB MTM

I'm a little late to the party, but I'd like to see an open baffle project, at least for the mids. Something like an OB Modula MTM with a sealed or ported bass bin. I realize that you have already rulled the OB out, but I'm voting anyway. Otherwise, a small MT or MTM like the Microbe, but with the TB W4 titanium would be my second choice.

Brian Walter

I'll second that. OB MTM, W in sealed bass box. Sounds good. High Efficiency.

[JonMarsh]

I'll second that. OB MTM, W in sealed bass box. Sounds good. High Efficiency.

Loses all the diople benefits of pitch definition and consistent power response of fundamentals and harmonics, in the frequency range where it's the biggest problem.

In my experience, one is better off with diopole in the 300 Hz down to 75 Hz area at the least, monopole above and below if that's all you can do.

Have done that. Optimum seems to be diopole up to at least 800-1,000 Hz. Not such a big deal above that.

Have done many experiments.

Not to say that the speaker as described above wouldn't be fun, but it would have pretty much all the disadvantages of a monopole bass solution, including room placement limitations for flat response (monopoles are MORE critical of room placement because they interact with more boundaries).

Evil Twin discusses boundary loading impact on FR

Just my 0.02.

What's the old saying? Kill the Buddha if you meet him on the road?

(you need to follow your own path to enlightenment - however many construction projects it taks (53 and counting for me))

~Jon

[Landroval]

3) Efficient design---6 (This could be combined with MMTMMW RS125 or W4, if W4 I may need a few drivers sent to me as I can't afford 8 of TB just for testing purposes. Sealed RS270 or RS225 or Usher 8137 woofer)
4) MMTMM(W) narrow side woofer ---5

This could also be done as only MMTMM without the W and that way keeping cost down and efficiency higher. E.g. with 4xRS150.

[speedle]

A three-way with the TB mid, floorstanding but not too big, something like the peak consult speakers, but cheaper of course. That would be a variation I could sink my teeth into. High WAF too.

[Hdale85]

With the W4 as the mid in a MTM I would guess the cabinet width could be as small as 5.5" wide. Although if too small the XO might have to be external depending on how elaborate it is. I love your drawups by the way JED

[Jed]

Points taken Jon. One benefit I see of OB on the mids is no box coloration and/or reflections coming back through the cone to color the sound- of course that would only be in the upper mids. I've seen a few design with only the midrange as open baffle and people tend to like the open sound. Not saying it's the best solution at all.


As I see things now, I'm probably going to start in this progression:

W4 fullrange, then W4 MT, then MTM

The W4 fullrange will take care of the ultra cheap speaker, I hope.

The W4 MT will be wall mountable with a slot front firing port to save on space and probably be around 5L based on my unibox simulation and have an f3 of 65hz. Same goes for the MTM.

Haven't totally ruled out OB guys. I've got some software coming from Music/Design to play around with in the coming weeks.

Also, If you are craving a 3-way with the W4 titanium, I believe Jim Holtz is creating a mini-Statements you should check out. I think it has dual Rs225, W4, and a ribbon tweeter.

As for the MMTMMW or WWTWW, you guys will have to decide on that one because I think I'll tackle that design after the little speaker designs.

Well, gotta go update the tally.

[dCraig]

Here is a vote for a MMTMM with Side firing woofer. Actually, anything with a side firing woofer would be nice to keep the width more narrow.

Also, with all the sub designs floating around, why is there no definitive sub project in Missions Accompished? One would think a musical sub in a nice cabinet design would be always a first stop for noobs and vets alike. I now those projects are easy by comparison to others but which ones are worthy of "missions accomplished" status?