"Tweeter" for low XO (500-1000Hz)

[Landroval]

One of the next things I'd like to experiment is a _fullrange_ 2-way, meaning ~25Hz-30kHz. It doesn't have to be very loud and I've also pretty much given up hope for good efficiency. I want to take the XO-point out of the 1,5kHz-4,5kHz range and I see no way to have 25Hz extension from a driver that can nicely go to 5kHz. I've done some smaller projects with 4"-5" drivers up to 5kHz and I like them a lot. Now it's time to try what happens if the XO point is lower than the 1,5kHz-4,5kHz sensitive range. The bass will probably be handled by an RS225.

What I need is a "tweeter" that has extension to 20-30kHz and can work with a low XO-point with normal 2nd-4th order electrical slopes. I have a few options already:

The Jordan JXr6HD ( http://www.ejjordan.co.uk/drivers/jxr6.html ) or the J6T ( http://www.markaudio.com/j6t ):
+ Fulfills criteria
+ I love my JX92S's
- J6T horrible looking frequency responce

Other ~2" fullranges, e.g. TangBand's
+ Low cost
- What is the quality? Some at least look nice

Fountek NeoPro5i ribbon ( http://www.fountek.com.au/products/NeoPro5i/index.htm )
+ 2nd order xo @1,5kHz is ok --> can go lower with steeper slope I hope
+ I like my smaller Founteks
- Expensive
- Vertical beaming

Mark&Daniel style AMT driver ( ***WARNING*** AJINFLA down there getting Trojans *** http://www.mark-daniel.com/Dir_En.asp?Proid=13 )
+ Mark&Daniel liked at e.g. 6moons
- Drivers not available separately as they are modified somehow (?)

Planar midranges/tweeters like B&G Neo8-PDR and HiVi RT8-II
+ Cost is ok
+ B&G can go low in an enclosure
- B&G enclosure tuning might not be so neat
- How's the top end?

Is there other options? Horns? Compression drivers? Any comments on the previous?

[Jed]

Mark&Daniel style AMT driver ( http://www.mark-daniel.com/Dir_En.asp?Proid=13 )
+ Mark&Daniel liked at e.g. 6moons
- Drivers not available separately as they are modified somehow (?)

These look interesting. I emailed them for pricing and specs on their drivers. One thing I think is silly is their lack of supplying FR and other parameters and their explanation as to why under the FAQ section.

[AJINFLA]

I'm getting Trojan warnings from that Mark Daniels website. Beware.

*edit - using Zone Alarm

[JonMarsh]

Here's my goof ball take:

Aursound 10" NS10-513 woofer (break up is at about 10 kHz)

Tangband W4-1337S, crossed in about 500-600 Hz, notch filter to control the highs. The highs and midrange will probably come close to what you get out of an RD50 planar driver, just not as loud, but it will be a point source, which will match up better than running a line array with a bass point source; it will have the same fall off with distance. I think you'll find a 1337S will give the Jordans a nice run for the money, just need a notch to control the top end resonance. Won't be perfect, but then no two way is.

OTHERWISE, I'd suggest a line array of RS210s in a dipole, coupled with an RD52. ~600 Hz crossover, maybe something in a nice flat delay bessel; I'd recommend getting a unit like a DCX2496 and experiment with different crossover alignments until you get the one that sounds best on and off axis. You could go monopole, but I'd recommend dipole. Tune the baffle design using EDGE.

[Landroval]

Thanks for comments. Hmmh, I'm not getting Trojans from M&D, but I'll put a warning there anyway.

Yes, the NS10-513 could be a good option for this. Enclosure size is relatively small and there's a lot more output capacity (which I don't really need though). Have to do some planning on this.

The W4-1337S seems to be a nice driver. Although I think it is too big for what I'm looking for here. I've played around with quite many 3"-5" fullranges (alu and paper cone Tangbands, Jordans, Neofones, FR125S's) and to me only the Jordans come close to good ribbons and dome tweeters. Other's are enjoyable and in many ways interesting, but the last sparkle is missing. Also the larger drivers 4" and up beam quite a lot on the higher frequencies, and this time I'd like to avoid that.

[AJINFLA]

An alternative to the Aura which should still be available on your side of the pond is the MA26WR09-04. Nice low F3 from a small enclosure and low-eff should match the Jordans ok.
Madisound had them on sale recently, but appear to have depleted their remaining inventory. They do however appear to be stocking the new aluminum Peerless XXLS. Dammit.

cheers,

AJ

[cobbpa]

Edit: Just read your post more closely & saw that you have the JX92s :roll: . I didn't see that until after I wrote the following response, but since I typed it all up, I'll just leave it. My bad for writing about something you already know :B

I have heard the Jordan JX92s. I know you didn't link to it, but maybe my experience is relevant. Jim Griffin had them in some skinny enclosure (I think TL) mated with a ribbon tweeter. He played them a while with impressive sound on both the top & bottom ends. Then he flipped a little switch he had in the back and we listened some more. The sound changed some, slightly less hot top-end, little quieter sounding overall, but not too much of a change from earlier. They still sounded great. He then announced that flipping the switch essentially turned off the tweeter. I was very impressed, and surprised that I don't see that comapny's drivers discussed or used more. I suppose it's the expense. I guess, then, in a roundabout way, I'm saying that I wouldn't doubt the top-end extension of the Jordan drivers since the two you linked to are even more geared toward top-end response than the one I heard.
Definitey sounds like a neat project, something I'll keep watching!

[noah katz]

Putting the tweeter on a waveguide will greatly help the low end.

The SP Timepiece speakers use them with domes XO'ed <1 kHz IIRC.

[Landroval]

Putting the tweeter on a waveguide will greatly help the low end.

The SP Timepiece speakers use them with domes XO'ed <1 kHz IIRC.

That's true. One of the nicest speakers I remember ever listening is the Avantgarde Duo which has a ~2" dome in a well sized horn going down to ~250Hz if I remember right.

The problem here is to find or make a proper horn. There isn't many available (for a reasonable price) and I don't think I have the competence or time to study how to make one. Anyway keeping this option open of course.

E.g. this: http://www.bd-design.nl/contents/en-us/d33.html
290Hz-22kHz and 114dB (!!), but 3279 EUR... a bit much.

[zerstorer]

Landroval,

I came up with the same list of candidates in my search. Any updates on your side with regards to the drivers?

Seems like Jordan JXR6HDs are totally unavailable for the time being.

Has anyone here tried a Tangband 1337 as a fullrange driver? How does it sound after taming that peak? I'm looking for something that doesn't give much to even good tweeters.

[servicetech]

You probably already know this but look out for efficiency ratings/power handling on these small full range drivers. Then tend to have very low outputs.

[Jonasz]

The Neo8-PDR works great with a low crossoverpoint.

[fjhuerta]

Ne8, true! I used it at 700 Hz, and the design I made with it is my personal favorite.

[Mediafreak]

Neo8 / Neo3

Ne8, true! I used it at 700 Hz, and the design I made with it is my personal favorite.

Yeah.. I also like the NEO8, but the weak part is +10K notes. It is not by mistake that BG in their speakers always are using the NEO3 in top of the NEO10 or NEO8. :B

Soo.. I prefere the NEO3 in my line array. I have been toeld that they can go down to around 1K by a 4'th order if you are using a lot of them. :T

The length of the unit is 89mm, but the bolt C-C distance is only 78mm. :T
So it is possible to have 16 units at a space of 1270mm (14x78 + 2x89)
The unit have 10W "RMS" and 20W "program", so I am quite sure that 160W RMS is enough to protect the units a divide around 1K. Because of the short distance between the units they are also covering each other at +10K.

I expect to mount the top of each unit behind the bottom the next. All units are then pointing about 2 deg. upwards. I cover the space between each unit for a cleaner surface.
suggestions?

Mediafreak.

[chrismercurio]

There have already been many great suggestions. The Scan Speak D3806/820000 is another option.

http://www.tymphany.com/d3806-820000

[Jed]

Landroval,

Has anyone here tried a Tangband 1337 as a fullrange driver? How does it sound after taming that peak? I'm looking for something that doesn't give much to even good tweeters.

Yup, Check out the Lineup F4 in the accomplished section.

Landroval, if you need a pair of NS10s I've got a pair for $200 bucks shipped.

Jed

[Mediafreak]

Domes and line sourse effect?

There have already been many great suggestions. The Scan Speak D3806/820000 is another option.

http://www.tymphany.com/d3806-820000

Domes are not usefull in a line sourse because of the distance between the domes = wooping 100mm.! You will loose the LS-effect before 10K. It must be a wall of aktive drivers, and the distance must not be more than about 20-30mm.
Mediafreak

[John D]

How about the Aurasound NSW2? Linkwitz uses it in his Pluto design. I believe that says something.

[Mediafreak]

Aurasound 2&quot; or 1&quot;?

How about the Aurasound NSW2? Linkwitz uses it in his Pluto design. I believe that says something.

Well the 2" version have some bad breakup around 2KHz. (see hobby HiFi germany), and the top is not the best I have seen.

Why not the 1" version NSW1-205-8A?
By madisound the price was 12$ so I guess the 2x36 pcs. pirce is no more than 10$ each. Build a line array with no cross over!
The speaker will be 1,5 meter tall and only 6-10 cm. wide!
Sensitivity around 90DB because of the line array effect, and 36x5/20=180/720 real W. This is why the speaker can go clean down to 200 Hz.
Buy 2 subs and divide by 200 Hz. at the amplifyer.
Simple - pure - cheap and powerfull. :T

Mediafreak

[thadman]

Well the 2" version have some bad breakup around 2KHz. (see hobby HiFi germany), and the top is not the best I have seen.

The resonance I believe is the result of the rear chamber acting as a helmholtz resonator. Stuff it with some wool or cotton and you should be good to go

[Jed]

Stock is low on those Auras and madisound it out of stock. I tested the 2" and it is a great driver for the price and it did have some peaking at 2k, but not bad. Easily controlled with a shaping filter.

[kappa546]

The resonance I believe is the result of the rear chamber acting as a helmholtz resonator. Stuff it with some wool or cotton and you should be good to go

agreed. i used wool stuffed about halfway and super glued to round pieces of felt to the bottom of the pole piece. i've been using the pair in my car for 2 years now. I think SL does this on his pluto because the cavity resonance is also absent is his measurements.

[chrismercurio]

:W

His original post didn't say anything about a line source or array. A big dome will work in a two way point source. In fact little domes work in two ways as evidenced by decades of british loudspeakers.

C