Decision time. WMTMW? TMWW? TB W4-1337? Dayton RS-125?

[fjhuerta]

I've been planning for a while this speaker... a BIG tower speaker with:

Dayton RS-225 (WW)
Dayton RS-125 (M - M)
Dayton RS-28A (T)

But as of late, I've been wondering on whether a WMTMW would work better than a TMWW (easier to design, better sounding), or if I should use the W4-1337 as mids instead of the RS-125.

I'd love to know your opinion about this...

[JonMarsh]

I'd suggest the W3-1337S for the mids. Much more extended top end before you get into energy storage issues. Similar to the RS52, but can play lower, and of course, needs its own rear enclosure. For the money, it's hard to beat the little Peerless D26CN55. Very clean CSD, very clean HD above 2 kHz. Smooth top end to 30 kHz approximately.

[fjhuerta]

Jon has spoken. Thanks a lot for your help. I'll definitely start saving and buy 4 of those mids. I already used them once and loved them - I was torn between using the RS52's for this project, but quite honestly, I want something big and impressive.

Do you believe a WMTMW would be a better choice than a TMWW, design-wise?

[Hdale85]

What are you using these for? HT? Music? I know they say that the TM designs are better for music wile the MTM designs are better for HT if you want both then I'd probably go with an WMTMW design.

[fjhuerta]

They will be exclusively used for music (quite possibly with all tube gear). They will be our new living room speakers.

[---k---]

CJD and I are just about finished with my Khanspire's WMTMW with the RS225/RS150/RS28, http://htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=26309
and you're posting this to make me rethink my choice in mids??? Grrrrrrhhh

With Jim's statements (WMTMW using the RS225/W4/some dumb ribbon), mine, and these, it would seem that 3-ways with the RS225 seem to be all the rage these days.

Jon, you're crossing the the RS28 pretty low to bigger drivers than the W3 in the Modula and Nat's. Do you really think there is a lot to be gained by moving the crossover point up with the drivers we're talking about.

[fjhuerta]

K, I'll be sure to take a look at your design! Since I was using the RS125's I didn't pay much attention - but the limited upper frequency response of the 125's isn't to my liking at all. I'd have to cross over the 125's far too low.

Was there any specific reason you went the WMTMW way? Oh - wait, I'd better read the thread before I start asking questions.

[nayr]

What are you using these for? HT? Music? I know they say that the TM designs are better for music wile the MTM designs are better for HT if you want both then I'd probably go with an WMTMW design.

Do you have any references to back these statements up?

[fjhuerta]

Do you have any references to back these statements up?

I assumed a WMTMW would be helpful in controlling vertical dispersion (floor / ceiling bounce) and a TMWW would have better dispersion at different listener heights.

Other than that, I'm not really sure about most things.

a) Is it easier to design a WMTMW, given that mirrored speakers are exactly at the same distance from the listening (tweeter) axis?
b) Can phase cancellation be an issue, considering the distance of the lower woofer to the higher midrange?
c) Is there a rule of thumb for choosing designs?
d) Why are there so many things I don't know?

[Hdale85]

Do you have any references to back these statements up?

Not particualary just seems to be the consensus from what I've seen Jon and others saying. Not saying an MTM is bad for music by any means as I recently heard the NatP's and can deffinately say they sound better then my Klipsch towers that are a TMM design.

[Jed]

Javier,

I think I would look to do something a bit different than what is going on with some of the WMTMW designs- maybe something with a sloped angled baffle or perhaps something along the lines of a Wilson X1, only a smaller version of course.

The more I look at these huge speakers people are making on this forum, the more I want to do crazy things like 4-ways, but is the extra compexity really worth the effort? I guess you'll have to define your design parameters and what you hope to accomplish with SPL, imaging, bass extention etc.

Here is a speaker I designed for a friend in an MTMW format. I'd say the MTM section at the top contributed to a very low distortion sound with explosive dynamics. I wouldn't mind doing another speaker like this one. I'll have to pick up another pair of C79s though. 8O

[Jim Holtz]

With Jim's statements (WMTMW using the RS225/W4/some dumb ribbon),

Ryan,

How you talk.... :smackbutt:

Jim

[Mazeroth]

Do you have any references to back these statements up?

Easy killer! :roll:

[JonMarsh]

Jon has spoken. Thanks a lot for your help. I'll definitely start saving and buy 4 of those mids. I already used them once and loved them - I was torn between using the RS52's for this project, but quite honestly, I want something big and impressive.

Do you believe a WMTMW would be a better choice than a TMWW, design-wise?

How big are you comfortable with, height wise?

I have done WMTMW with 8" woofers, dome mids, and tweeter, but if you put the tweeter at something close to ear level while sitting, it's kind of dominating in a room. But I like the acoustic symmetry of what's essentially an extended MTM- did this long before we had terms like MTM's or WMTMW.

I'd be tempted were I in your shoe's to go with something like Jed's MTMW, as small as the drivers are, you can really control the CTC distances well. You might even consider a MTMWW, as long as you manage the load impedances- series the drivers, probably. I was thinking about that earlier this week, to make a really narrow tower. But it would be redundant for me, at the moment, as I'm considering converting my M8ta to a three way using the RS552. Just bought a big honkin' router bit to hog out the front panel, and will be making a template for the hole cut. That RS210 is interesting- I can see I'm going to have to get hold of a couple and measure them. I'm kicking some different ideas around, trying to pick drivers so I can use a Duelund approach on the next one, too.

I'm still thinking about making some mini-satelites with just BSC and a HF notch filter with the W4-1337. Or an MTM crossed to the D26CN55 (I've got a lot of the old ones, and the new ones are even better, if better is a flatter top end above 10 kHz). Use an active crossover at 125 Hz or so, with an RS210 on the bottom, might be pretty fun.

in your case, what about using a passive network for your mids and tweeters, running the tubes on that, and biamping to the bass?

[fjhuerta]

Jon, height is not an issue. My house's ceilings in the living room must be around 20' tall, so tall speakers actually look better (at least, according to my wife). Also, there's a sofa directly in front of one of the speakers, so an MTM makes sense in a way (since the mids and highs clear the sofa easily).

I had already seen Jed's design before (and love it, Jed - a Wilson Audio clone?). I suppose using the W4's in an asymmetric enclosure designed to minimise reflections, and a separate sub enclosure (like in the WATT Puppy, I suppose) is definitely a desing I'd love to try.

Bi-amping the woofers would be interesting, too - in order not to add too much complexity, could I just add a plate amp, and an external electronic crossover? If I went that way, I could definitely use the Dayton RS125, and use the money I'd have used for the W4's for two 300W BASH plate amps instead (which, since they are made in Canada, would be cheaper for me to get than the W4's since I don't pay taxes on those, and s/h is very cheap).

My question would be... would the BASH 300W plate amps be a good idea for bi-amping the woofers? how high could I take them? If I used the Dayton RS125's, I guess I'd like to take them up to around 250 Hz, and run the RS125's up to 2 KHz. Do you guys see any issue in this?

Would the RS220's / BASH amps be a good combination? If so, then I'd build an all- Dayton speaker (I bet Evil Twin would love it in Piano Black).

That sounds actually very cool. Do you guys think it'd be a good idea?

[opt-e]

I'm still thinking about making some mini-satelites with just BSC and a HF notch filter with the W4-1337. Or an MTM crossed to the D26CN55 (I've got a lot of the old ones, and the new ones are even better, if better is a flatter top end above 10 kHz). Use an active crossover at 125 Hz or so, with an RS210 on the bottom, might be pretty fun.

I'd love to see this come to fruitation. The MTM would make some darn nice computer speakers with that little RS210 sub :T

[nayr]

I'm still thinking about making some mini-satelites with just BSC and a HF notch filter with the W4-1337. Or an MTM crossed to the D26CN55 (I've got a lot of the old ones, and the new ones are even better, if better is a flatter top end above 10 kHz). Use an active crossover at 125 Hz or so, with an RS210 on the bottom, might be pretty fun.

;x(

I've been wanting a little system like this for ages. Micro-monitors always tempt me for bedroom use, something like a Totem Dreamcatcher or smaller.

[Jed]

My question would be... would the BASH 300W plate amps be a good idea for bi-amping the woofers? how high could I take them? If I used the Dayton RS125's, I guess I'd like to take them up to around 250 Hz, and run the RS125's up to 2 KHz. Do you guys see any issue in this?

Would the RS220's / BASH amps be a good combination? If so, then I'd build an all- Dayton speaker (I bet Evil Twin would love it in Piano Black).

That sounds actually very cool. Do you guys think it'd be a good idea?

A lot of nice ideas could be realized here. The biamping idea is nice, but I think I'd want something with a bit more low end extention than the RS125, even if you are using 2 in parallel. I do like the RS125 as I've used them in a small 2-way with one of those MBquart tweeters, and have experience listening to Roman's Microbe design. So yeah, if going up to 250hz you shouldn't be too far off if using the RS125, but how clean is the Bash amp up into the midrange, and will this system integrate well as opposed to a fully optimized 3-way, where you have more control over the response using passive crossover? I'd be more inclined to do an active setup for a bass bin (less than 125hz), as opposed to a design that extends into the midbass. Just some things to think about more as you finalize your design decisions. And how loud do you want these speakers to play. An RS225, RS125, RS28 WMTM in the format I show above will play easily 103DB for most music unless you start pumping 20HZ tones.