Budget $400. Suggestions for a subwoofer driver for $150???

[Eric S]

Thanks, Thomas! Just ordered a set of 4 of these. They look like great drivers! Looking back over the years - you've been a very bad influence on me for spending my money :B

[ThomasW]

Isn't that Qts on the high side for a ported box?

Yes, but as posted earlier try and find something better for $$$....

[zzzz]

Just went ahead and ordered the xj 15 and also the nady xa-900.

Giddy up!

[zzzz]

-k-

Here's an inter-comparison between the xj 15 at 200W tuned to 15, 17 and 18.5 Hz per your request.

All look good to me.

[JonMarsh]

It's behaving more like a sealed box- notice the consistent peaking at 40 Hz, and tuning below 20 is only the stuff down there. Not necessarily a bad thing, but what does it look like sealed the same size box?

[zzzz]

It's behaving more like a sealed box- notice the consistent peaking at 40 Hz, and tuning below 20 is only the stuff down there. Not necessarily a bad thing, but what does it look like sealed the same size box?

I added a 300 L sealed box to the graph. More output all across the board.

[zzzz]

Does this imply I may be better off with a sealed box, than ported?

[Kevin Haskins]

Damn that's nice driver even for twice the price! 27 mm Xmax AND 89 dB/watt? I presume that's with both VC wired in parallel. Q is perfect for IB or dipole. And it's supposed to be a low inductance XBL^2 motor? Too bad Le wasn't spec'd.

Its about 1.1mH @ 1K. Of course inductance is one of those things that is most meaningful if you look at the Klippel & over a range of frequencies. You really need a 3D graph to represent the inductance curve.

I hope they have this around for a while... even though it is a limited production run item. I can imagine wanting 4 right off the bat - if the first one tests out right.

We will have something that has parameters like the Tempest within 60-90 days. Same motor.... different suspension and the parameters fall into "Tempest-Like" parameters which works great for IB applications also.

Price will be $175-$195 range so they will still be an attractive value proposition but will fit more applications. (ie.. sealed, ported, IB or dipole).

I also have a pretty cool measurement, PEQ, variable filter tool that is 90 days out. It plugs into your PC via USB cable and allows you to measure your room (included microphone), view the response, operate 3-5 PEQ bands, variable subsonic filter, variable high-pass filter, Linkwitz transform, dipole EQ phase... etc...

We are knee deep in software testing and final pricing isn't firm but expect the $300-$400 range for a tool that allows almost infinite adjustment of filter functions (very accurate ones at that) and complete software manipulation for some really cool home install like subs. All of this is done analog rather than DSP also.... :-)

[Dean100]

Wondering what the smallest sealed box one would consider using with this driver. Assuming I would power it with however much I power I need to throw at it.

Looking at building my daughter a subwoofer for her bedroom for music use and then she can use it in a larger room later on in life.

Really would like to keep the size down somewhat. Or should I look at different drivers?

[---k---]

You're plot with the sealed isn't correct. I think you hit save on the ported box. See the wiggle at around ~200hz, that is the port resonance.

I think I like the 17hz tune the best of those presented, but it is such a minor difference that this is more slot car racing talk.

Try again with the sealed.

And note, we'll be recommending that you run the amp as: "900W bridged mono @ 4 ohms"

[Kyle Richardson]

Dean100 - If you're looking for a small bedroom sub then the 12" may even end up being too large for her and I wouldnt even look at the 15"

As Thomas mentioned eariler, Sound Solutions Audio does not make these drivers and is just a site where I have a forum. Kevin at DIY ordered these as the Exodus drivers but they missed the parameters a bit so instead of sending them back we're selling them at a great price.

The 15's have proven to be very popular because they are ideal IB and dipole drivers and you simply cannot beat the low price.

[zzzz]

You're plot with the sealed isn't correct. I think you hit save on the ported box. See the wiggle at around ~200hz, that is the port resonance.

I think I like the 17hz tune the best of those presented, but it is such a minor difference that this is more slot car racing talk.

Try again with the sealed.

And note, we'll be recommending that you run the amp as: "900W bridged mono @ 4 ohms"

You were correct Sir. I did save a ported box and advertise it as a sealed box. I attach what I hope is the updated plot.

Respect!

[ThomasW]

Wondering what the smallest sealed box one would consider using with this driver. Assuming I would power it with however much I power I need to throw at it.

Looking at building my daughter a subwoofer for her bedroom for music use and then she can use it in a larger room later on in life.

Really would like to keep the size down somewhat. Or should I look at different drivers?

If used with a Linkwitz-Transform circuit these could be put in a pretty small box..

If you want a driver to work in a tiny box look at car audio drivers that have a very low Vas.

[jdybnis]

zzzz,

My instinct here is to go with a smaller box to reduce that peak at 40Hz, and raise the tuning frequency to about 22Hz to get more output between 20Hz and 30Hz.

[JonMarsh]

Its about 1.1mH @ 1K. Of course inductance is one of those things that is most meaningful if you look at the Klippel & over a range of frequencies. You really need a 3D graph to represent the inductance curve.



We will have something that has parameters like the Tempest within 60-90 days. Same motor.... different suspension and the parameters fall into "Tempest-Like" parameters which works great for IB applications also.

Price will be $175-$195 range so they will still be an attractive value proposition but will fit more applications. (ie.. sealed, ported, IB or dipole).

I also have a pretty cool measurement, PEQ, variable filter tool that is 90 days out. It plugs into your PC via USB cable and allows you to measure your room (included microphone), view the response, operate 3-5 PEQ bands, variable subsonic filter, variable high-pass filter, Linkwitz transform, dipole EQ phase... etc...

We are knee deep in software testing and final pricing isn't firm but expect the $300-$400 range for a tool that allows almost infinite adjustment of filter functions (very accurate ones at that) and complete software manipulation for some really cool home install like subs. All of this is done analog rather than DSP also.... :-)

Thanks for the update, Kevin- for my immediate applications, "these" are the ones that are perfect. Ordered two today. Will be interested to see how the EQ system works out- sounds like a very useful approach.

~Jon

[zzzz]

zzzz,

My instinct here is to go with a smaller box to reduce that peak at 40Hz, and raise the tuning frequency to about 22Hz to get more output between 20Hz and 30Hz.

Thanks Josh, that move (to me, a newbie) would reduce the spl somewhat and the extension below 20 Hz (don't have excel at home, so I cannot model it), but would it really improve the sq?

[zzzz]

And note, we'll be recommending that you run the amp as: "900W bridged mono @ 4 ohms"

I'll definately give that a whizz.. should be plenty o power for that, but I don't know if it would help at the 55 - 75 db volume we typically listen at? Maybe the extra power would allow more low frequency extension?

[jdybnis]

Thanks Josh, that move (to me, a newbie) would reduce the spl somewhat and the extension below 20 Hz (don't have excel at home, so I cannot model it), but would it really improve the sq?

I would say yes, smoother rolloff will improve sound quality. And you will gain a lot more from the extra headroom than you will from an extra few Hz of extension. I believe anything you do to get a flat response, and a smooth rolloff will give you tighter sounding bass. If you are using eq you can optimize for something else and then flatten out the response electronically. But ultimately, targeting a smooth flat response, there is a tradeoff between low frequency extension and maximum spl. Right now you are way at the low frequency extension end of the spectrum. The thing is that it's tough to hear the difference between 15Hz and 20Hz, and even at maximum output, a single one of these drivers probably can't push enough air to play a 15hz tone loud enough to feel/hear. Remember 20Hz is the "threshold of hearing".

[---k---]

I would do the ported. I've done both with the SS RL-p15

Because:
1) You said that this is 90% HT. Ported will give you a lot more shake. It makes movies more fun.
2) Your budget doesn't allow for LT or even really simple parametric EQ which people keep suggesting for use with sealed.
3) Sealed sounds better, but man ported can sound really good too. I found the difference to be small and not a big issue to me. Maybe if I had them back to back and was super critical. How picky are you? You don't sound to me like you're ready to pick out the subtle differences between the ported and sealed configurations you've plotted. Discussing the differences is basically just sport for internet forums.
4) I just enjoy my ported subs better. And I think that 17.5 hz tune looks great. Flat to ~40hz and then gentle roll-off like a sealed (as Jon pointed out). We'll have to be careful with statements like that, or we'll be sounding like someone from the past.

[---k---]

I just realized, this is really a no-brainer. We're talking about the same size box. Build the ported, then stuff a nerf football in it to go sealed. For extra party game fun, drive the sub really really hard and see if you can pop the football out.

For a more elegant solution than a nerf, do a search for Kingdaddy's sub. He has some kind of valve on his port.

[zzzz]

Thanks for the input Ryan!

I'm going with the ported 300 L box at 17Hz. Graphs attached. They look fine to me, and I have the space for a 33 x 33 x 18 (h x w x d) box behind the couch.

I'll probably get a fresh bout of upgraditis and get myself the BFD at Christmastime.

I'll go ahead and hits Lowe's today to get the MDF and have them cut. Then to get/borrow a jig saw to cut out circles and braces and I'm laughing!

Many thanks to all, for the advice and input.


Oh - quick question - how do the excursion and air port speed look? Worried about the air speed and excursion below 20 hz. Thanks!

[JonMarsh]

Its about 1.1mH @ 1K. Of course inductance is one of those things that is most meaningful if you look at the Klippel & over a range of frequencies. You really need a 3D graph to represent the inductance curve.


:-)

Sounds quite nice- I understand the fallacy about a single inductance figure, but it helps get a first order approximation. A re-tune with properties closer to a Tempest with this build quality and sensitivity could still be pretty useful... but as is these seem literally "perfect" for what I want. Might have to pop for a couple more.

[Kevin Haskins]

Sounds quite nice- I understand the fallacy about a single inductance figure, but it helps get a first order approximation. A re-tune with properties closer to a Tempest with this build quality and sensitivity could still be pretty useful... but as is these seem literally "perfect" for what I want. Might have to pop for a couple more.

Jon,

Looking back over the motor parameters, the VC's in parallel should be 0.9mH @ 1K with the cone fixed in the center position. We use an aluminum shorting ring to control the inductance over the throw of the driver so it looks good over the entire range of travel.


For those who had problems with our web site yesterday, I apologize. Our host updated their security and it was giving us trouble with our sessions tracking. All is fixed now....

Also... I'm not trying to be a used car salesman but these drivers are going to be history very soon. If you want them... I'd get them now.

[littlesaint]

Jon,

Looking back over the motor parameters, the VC's in parallel should be 0.9mH @ 1K with the cone fixed in the center position. We use an aluminum shorting ring to control the inductance over the throw of the driver so it looks good over the entire range of travel.


For those who had problems with our web site yesterday, I apologize. Our host updated their security and it was giving us trouble with our sessions tracking. All is fixed now....

Also... I'm not trying to be a used car salesman but these drivers are going to be history very soon. If you want them... I'd get them now.

Do my eyes deceive me, or did the price go up since yesterday?

EDIT: I also see free shipping now, so I guess it's mostly a wash depending on where you live.

[zzzz]

Do my eyes deceive me, or did the price go up since yesterday?

EDIT: I also see free shipping now, so I guess it's mostly a wash depending on where you live.

Hey no fair!!! I lost $2.50 as a result

Oh well. :lol:

[Kevin Haskins]

Hey no fair!!! I lost $2.50 as a result

Oh well. :lol:

Yes... our shopping cart was giving us troubles. It would see the order as one package which helped the customer (one package is cheaper than many) but at 40lbs each shipping weight we quickly went over UPS minimums. It wouldn't allow customers to check out with more than two drivers.

So.... we changed the weight to 0.1lb each and rolled an average shipping price into the total. The guys on the east coast get a better deal and west coast guys get the shaft.

[---k---]

Oh - quick question - how do the excursion and air port speed look? Worried about the air speed and excursion below 20 hz. Thanks!

As long as your graphs are accurate, they look great.

You're excursion won't be exceeded until under 10hz. This is excellent. I don't think you'll be able to bottom the sub under normal conditions. Just go easy the first few times you run something like War of the Worlds with that 5hz signal.

The port speed is also very good. that red line is the theoretical limit for noise. You're under it, and at the max is very low in the frequency range where it is more difficult to hear.

You're excursion and port speed both look better than my big sub, so I think you'll be fine on both.

[yousuredo2]

not trying to thread Jack:
But can anyone tell me what size box would be optimal for this driver(sealed or Ported).
I have room for a relatively large box, 30" cube end table, or sonotube(are these good for down firing).

I am just wondering if i should get one of these now...(low funds at the moment)
or wait and get the 15" sound splinter later...(when funds are better)

[littlesaint]

not trying to thread Jack:
But can anyone tell me what size box would be optimal for this driver(sealed or Ported).
I have room for a relatively large box, 30" cube end table, or sonotube(are these good for down firing).

I am just wondering if i should get one of these now...(low funds at the moment)
or wait and get the 15" sound splinter later...(when funds are better)

Unibox numbers are ~20 cubic feet sealed and ~30 cubic feet ported. :E

[---k---]

but, as we can see a 300L ported models quite well. So, it isn't that straight forward. I don't have time to model it a 30" cube up right now. Unibox is free, and isn't that difficult to learn.

[zzzz]

As long as your graphs are accurate, they look great.

You're excursion won't be exceeded until under 10hz. This is excellent. I don't think you'll be able to bottom the sub under normal conditions. Just go easy the first few times you run something like War of the Worlds with that 5hz signal.

The port speed is also very good. that red line is the theoretical limit for noise. You're under it, and at the max is very low in the frequency range where it is more difficult to hear.

You're excursion and port speed both look better than my big sub, so I think you'll be fine on both.

Thanks for your comments Ryan. I thought the graphs looked OK, but after only a few days of tinkering with unibox I was somewhat unsure.

[whoaru99]

What would be the power requirement to run four of the XJ-15 to max performance in an IB setup and the resultant FR and SPL?

Room size is about 12x24.

[ThomasW]

Punch the drivers T/S parameters into your favorite box modeling program. Set the sealed box size to the largest one the program setting allows.

IBs are excursion limited instead of thermal limited, so increase the power until you see what power level it takes for them to hit Xmax.

[whoaru99]

Punch the drivers T/S parameters into your favorite box modeling program.

I don't have one - a modeling program, that is.

[ThomasW]

Unibox and WinISD pro alpha are freeware.

Links for both are in here...

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26544

[whoaru99]

Thanks.

I will try one, or both.

[whoaru99]

How would I know if the results I have are correct (considering four XJ-15)?

F3=30Hz??

Max power= ~620W@10Hz??

SPL = ~108dB @ 10Hz, ~124dB @80Hz??

[JonMarsh]

Got Woofers?




Considering the target is an upgraded Tempest, this is a pretty nice looking driver in the flesh. The surround and suspension do not look like 25-27 mm Xmax components- (not comparable to my Stryke HE-15 or BPD1203's), but they look like what you'd expect on a solid 20-22 mm Xmax unit, with very good build quality.

I don't have any way to do DUMAX or Kippel type measurements.

When I'm back from my business travel I'll setup a test baffle and do swept sine distortion measurements at 4V RMS and 10V RMS. You might be surprised at what levels of distortion I've seen in a lot of subwoofers at that relatively "modest" drive level. For now, initial impressions and a quick frequency sweep suggest they're work nicely for one of my dipole projects.

~Jon

[littlesaint]

I should be getting my two in the next few days. Eventually they will go into an IB in the basement, but until I'm ready for that part of the construction, I was thinking a simple open baffle. Is there anything special to how they would be arranged on the front baffle such as distance between them, angled or flat across, in phase, out of phase, etc?

[ThomasW]

How would I know if the results I have are correct (considering four XJ-15)?

F3=30Hz??

Max power= ~620W@10Hz??

SPL = ~108dB @ 10Hz, ~124dB @80Hz??

It's impossible to know if your calculations are correct unless we see your model. The best way to do this is by uploading screen shots of your sim as attachments.

[Kevin Haskins]

The suspension uses a 28mm roll foam surround. It has 40mm of travel and it starts to stiffen up significantly at about 75% of that travel, or 30mm. Its a progressive thing though.... not all at once and we use the surround in this case to try and limit hard-bottoming. The basket is the real limit in terms of X-mech and that comes at about 36-37mm.

The spider is 180mm OD on a 64mm voice coil so there is a good 60mm of usable width for suspension travel. Its cotton Nomax (Conex) with a progressively damped linear profile. It doesn’t limit our travel and was picked based upon the best linear cms curve.

The motor easily supports the 27mm of one-way linear. The motor is rarely the limiting factor in any of the high stroke motors that Wiggins designed. The XBL^2 motors have a nice constant motor force over their usable stroke. This is a blessing (lower distortion) and a curse. The curse part has to do with how they overload at the limits. They don't have as much audible distortion until they reach the end of the suspension travel or if they bottom. That doesn't give users a lot of feedback that they are approaching their limits and then time to adjust their behavior (reduce gain).

By designing the suspension to start to progressively limit travel, rather than allowing them to bottom easily we give up some suspension related distortion but gain a little extra safety. Its a design choice though.... there is no free lunch. We certainly would minimally lower distortion at the limits with a larger roll surround..... just before the driver bottomed and self-destructed. ;-)

The Shiva-X & Tempest-X have a slightly larger roll (36mm) rubber surround. We didn't move to it for the extra excursion or lower distortion though... we just needed a softer suspension and the foam ones from our vendor where not soft enough for the job.

Also.. note the effect on Sd. The 28mm surround gives us an approx Sd = 807.23 cm^2 (12 5/8" diameter from center of the surround center of surround). The larger roll rubber surround (subtract 4mm on the radius) gives about 753 cm^2. At a conservative 50mm peak-to-peak throw the smaller surround gives us 4036 cm^3 or just over 4L. The larger rubber surround would give us 3765 cm^3 with the same 50mm p-p throw. The lower Sd of the larger roll surround is equivilant to about 2mm of x-max in terms of total displacement capability.

Kevin Haskins
DIYCable & Exodus Audio

[whoaru99]

How would I know if the results I have are correct (considering four XJ-15)?

F3=30Hz??

Max power= ~620W@10Hz??

SPL = ~108dB @ 10Hz, ~124dB @80Hz??

What else do I need to look show for someone to say whether this is correct (for IB), or not?

[JonMarsh]

The suspension uses a 28mm roll foam surround. It has 40mm of travel and it starts to stiffen up significantly at about 75% of that travel, or 30mm. Its a progressive thing though.... not all at once and we use the surround in this case to try and limit hard-bottoming. The basket is the real limit in terms of X-mech and that comes at about 36-37mm.

The spider is 180mm OD on a 64mm voice coil so there is a good 60mm of usable width for suspension travel. Its cotton Nomax (Conex) with a progressively damped linear profile. It doesn’t limit our travel and was picked based upon the best linear cms curve.

The motor easily supports the 27mm of one-way linear. The motor is rarely the limiting factor in any of the high stroke motors that Wiggins designed. The XBL^2 motors have a nice constant motor force over their usable stroke. This is a blessing (lower distortion) and a curse. The curse part has to do with how they overload at the limits. They don't have as much audible distortion until they reach the end of the suspension travel or if they bottom. That doesn't give users a lot of feedback that they are approaching their limits and then time to adjust their behavior (reduce gain).

By designing the suspension to start to progressively limit travel, rather than allowing them to bottom easily we give up some suspension related distortion but gain a little extra safety. Its a design choice though.... there is no free lunch. We certainly would minimally lower distortion at the limits with a larger roll surround..... just before the driver bottomed and self-destructed. ;-)

The Shiva-X & Tempest-X have a slightly larger roll (36mm) rubber surround. We didn't move to it for the extra excursion or lower distortion though... we just needed a softer suspension and the foam ones from our vendor where not soft enough for the job.

Also.. note the effect on Sd. The 28mm surround gives us an approx Sd = 807.23 cm^2 (12 5/8" diameter from center of the surround center of surround). The larger roll rubber surround (subtract 4mm on the radius) gives about 753 cm^2. At a conservative 50mm peak-to-peak throw the smaller surround gives us 4036 cm^3 or just over 4L. The larger rubber surround would give us 3765 cm^3 with the same 50mm p-p throw. The lower Sd of the larger roll surround is equivilant to about 2mm of x-max in terms of total displacement capability.

Kevin Haskins
DIYCable & Exodus Audio

Thanks for the update and additional details, Kevin. Surround size versus Sd is always a tradeoff, even in larger drivers like the XJ-15.

[jimluu]

Great deal! I was just about to buy 4 tc1000, but bought 4 of these instead. I plan to build something like the Jamo r909 or the Irises. The Irises looks great,but no way to listen to them. Hopefully the JAMO will be at the rmaf.

[JonMarsh]

What else do I need to look show for someone to say whether this is correct (for IB), or not?

That's in the ball park- about 108 dB at 10 Hz, about 115 dB at 20 Hz with 600W total (150 W /driver).

To improve the accuracy of the Unibox simulation, calculate the actual volume you would have to work with for your IB space, and use that as your working volume, not 99,999 liters. The Q will be a bit higher, the Fb a bit higher, and there will be a bit less output in the very low frequencies for this same drive level.