Dayton RSS210HF

[Jed]

Anybody got a design idea cooked up for these little guys?

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-456

[---k---]

Are those new?

[PoorboyMike]

Are those new?

Yes.

Now you have another option for your khanspires! I'm sure they have more bass potential than the RS225, and will probably go plenty high enough to cross to the RS150. :B

[Brian Bunge]

Are those new?

Yep! 1.5L tuned around 25Hz looks good.

[Evil Twin]

A subwoofer? At 9 mm Xmax? Or a long throw woofer of moderate (86 dB) sensitivity- not that high for 4 ohms.

An intriguing proposition, nonetheless, if the cone break up is at a high enough frequency. If the cone construction is is similar in materials and stiffness to the larger RS "sub" drivers, there might be some striking utility in this component, though the cost may put off the usual fans of the standard RS midwoofers.

Further investigation will be required.

[JonMarsh]

Yep! 1.5L tuned around 25Hz looks good.

1.5 Liter? Are you sure you haven't slipped a decimal point there, Brian? Or has something changed this weekend in the Earth's air compressibility factor that I haven't figured out yet? Or are you using massive EQ with a flux capacitor driver?

[---k---]

Yes.

Now you have another option for your khanspires! I'm sure they have more bass potential than the RS225, and will probably go plenty high enough to cross to the RS150. :B

The thought crossed my mind for a split second. But with a $100 price tag (so $400 total just for those) and already having $200 worth of the RS225s on hand, I don't think I could stomach the switch. I wasn't even going to entertain modeling it.

Man though, if these had been out two months ago.... Nah, the $400 is still a lot just to gain more low end and probably gain a little more distortion in the upper bass region. Especially when I have said from day one, these are meant to have a sub. If I wanted more bass, ported really isn't that much bigger, just ~2" deeper.

I'm guessing that these would work best sealed with and an active crossover and some EQ help. Maybe I'll have to see how they compare in my current box - just for enlightenment.

But, if someone wants to pay for for the parts, I'll be glad to entertain switching them out. PE, if you're listening and want a project to show these off, send me (CJD???) a few freebies.

[dlneubec]

I saw these at the IndianaDIY and they are capable of a lot of excursion mechanically, way more than 9mm. It was unreal the amount of excursion they were doing when tested on the Woffer Tester II. I bet they were moving 3/4" each way. I guess there is some vc limitation that makes for the lower xmax rating.

[Jed]

I don't know but as soon as I saw these I thought Jon might be updating the M8ta woofer section, and if they go high enough might be nice with RS52. The only downside is the 86db at 4ohm rating. Might need 2 series to really make things work.

[cjd]

If 80-83dB sensitivity is enough for a finished speaker, these might be a good match.

Not much padding (if any at all) will in use on the RS225's wired in parallel in Ryan's project.

Even if you wanted to go with four, it would probably net a lower sensitivity.

C

[JonMarsh]

I don't know but as soon as I saw these I thought Jon might be updating the M8ta woofer section, and if they go high enough might be nice with RS52. The only downside is the 86db at 4ohm rating. Might need 2 series to really make things work.

It's an interesting idea. Also for the Saint-Saens dipole system.

I'm OBVIOUSLY going to have to get a pair to test, dang it!

And people wonder why I exhibit symptoms of Attention Deficit Syndrome!

Two in series should net the same sensitivity for voltage- would be curious to model them in the 70 liter enclosure. Something to do this evening...

It all hinges on how stiff the cone is and how clean the upper bass/lower midrange- I like the construction design for the RS sub cones better than the RS midwoofers in some regards.

We shall see.

As regards ultimate sensitivity, with the Palladium monoblocks I have I'm not too concerned.... I think... but we'll see.

[Jed]

Might as well order 4 Jon, you'll get a bit of savings. Relatively speaking of course.

[Drew]

Hmmm...eeeeenteresting

I'm currently using 4 EQd RS225s in a small sealed enclosure as a mini "subwoofer" for my bedroom system. In-room it's flat down to the mid 20s. At 100 dB SPL the woofers are excursion limited at about 25 Hz, according to unibox.

I just ran some quick and dirty numbers on the new RSS210 and wasn't that impressed. Using 2 drivers, for the same size box you gain about 2 dB of headroom over the RS225s before you are excursion limited. But you pay almost 3 times the price (in $$).

I have a feeling that this was designed for people who want a small vented sub.

Now, this was just running the numbers. Maybe the measurements will show reduced distortion (but better than 2 RS225s?), or a better behaved cone. It will be interesting.

[JonMarsh]

Might as well order 4 Jon, you'll get a bit of savings. Relatively speaking of course.

RELatively, but then if I don't like them, what would I do?

Guess I could always design a sub/sat system for my PowerMac using the Aurasound 3's for the midrange.

If they look like a good candidate to blend with the RD50's, I'll definitely have to arrange a wholesale account to afford 16 of them!

Must stay focused....

Must stay on current project...

No diversions!!!

[Brian Bunge]

Sorry, Jon. I was typing quickly. I meant 1.5ft^3 (or around 40L).

I should see if they'll send me a couple of samples to test...

[JonMarsh]

Sorry, Jon. I was typing quickly. I meant 1.5ft^3 (or around 40L).

I should see if they'll send me a couple of samples to test...

Just having fun with you-

If you can talk them into sending you some to test, all the better!

Me, I'm trying to keep my nose to the grindstone and build crossovers this afternoon!

[Jed]

RELatively, but then if I don't like them, what would I do?

Guess I could always design a sub/sat system for my PowerMac using the Aurasound 3's for the midrange.

If they look like a good candidate to blend with the RD50's, I'll definitely have to arrange a wholesale account to afford 16 of them!

Must stay focused....

Must stay on current project...

No diversions!!!

You do not want to do a 4 way Duelund, you do NOT want to do a 4-way Dueland. . . . . .

Eye on the Target, Focus, no distractions, nothing could possibly be better, . . . .

:B

[Jed]

uh oh, PE just lowered the pricing! no joke! check it out guys.

[JonMarsh]

uh oh, PE just lowered the pricing! no joke! check it out guys.

I think ET must have had a little "persuasive chat" with them, you think? I hear he can charm the breath right out of a Grand Moff when he puts is mind to it...

Still, that's definitely the right direction- seemed a little pricey for an 8" driver, unless you're the sort used to ScanSpeaks and Seas W22's. And don't anyone go saying I resemble that remark...

~Jon

[Jed]

I think ET must have had a little "persuasive chat" with them, you think? I hear he can charm the breath right out of a Grand Moff when he puts is mind to it...

Still, that's definitely the right direction- seemed a little pricey for an 8" driver, unless you're the sort used to ScanSpeaks and Seas W22's. And don't anyone go saying I resemble that remark...

~Jon

Don't remind me of ET's presence, since I've been considering dipoles for my Aurasound NS10s lately. You think you have ADHD- you're not alone!

[joecarrow]

These are definitely a special-interest kind of driver. I picture them in a "compact" 3-way, or a subwoofer for apartment dwellers. For that matter, cars don't really need a million watts and multiple 15" woofers for satisfying bass- one of these ought to provide some really nice bass in a car installation as well, allowing as high of a crossover as you desire.

True, the efficiency sucks... but they're obviously not meant for that. Jon's on the right track thinking of them as computer speakers. Seal them small, give them a bunch of EQ and power, and don't sit too far away. Alternatively, use some PRs and give those Sunfire things a run for their money.

[JonMarsh]

You do not want to do a 4 way Duelund, you do NOT want to do a 4-way Dueland. . . . . .

Eye on the Target, Focus, no distractions, nothing could possibly be better, . . . .

:B

You're right Jed, it's a three way-

"Midwoofer dipole array"

"RD50 B&G mid-tweeter" (like a midwoofer, only higher in frequency"

"Fountek Ribbons"


Got everything except the "midwoofers". Need a six foot tall source. 8-1/2" X 8 should be close enough...

Haven't tried a Duelund transfer function modeling yet, probably something around 500-600 Hz for the nominal lower crossover, and ~3-4 kHz for the upper. Just a little different from the Modula NeoD CC in frequency ranges.

I will not be distracted by the changes in the earth's gravitational field that make this speaker concept seem so heavy....


(magnet weight 50 oz, what does the whole driver weight? 6 lb? that's 48 lb in midwoofers per side, plus the RD50's that weigh about 30 lb. Good thing there won't be a box...

[JonMarsh]

These are definitely a special-interest kind of driver. I picture them in a "compact" 3-way, or a subwoofer for apartment dwellers. For that matter, cars don't really need a million watts and multiple 15" woofers for satisfying bass- one of these ought to provide some really nice bass in a car installation as well, allowing as high of a crossover as you desire.

True, the efficiency sucks... but they're obviously not meant for that. Jon's on the right track thinking of them as computer speakers. Seal them small, give them a bunch of EQ and power, and don't sit too far away. Alternatively, use some PRs and give those Sunfire things a run for their money.

You might have the right idea- I used to have dual 8" woofers in my last Trans Am (we're talking 80's here), and that worked just fine for "normal" music moderately loud.

Still, having Palladiums means never having to say your'e sorry you don't have enough power (clipping at 600watt 8 ohms, 1 kW 4 ohms). Somehow I don't think we need to go that far- these are still as efficient or more so than Magneplanar speakers, for example (very low 80's.).

[Johnloudb]

Looking Good!

I really like this thread!! Those RSS210HF look great - perfect match for RD50. I may get some Fountek Ribbons. I already have my 8" Ushers, & still happy with 'em.

Keep at it Jed, Jon, ... I'll have my speaker done in no time. :T

[Jed]

I really like this thread!! Those RSS210HF look great - perfect match for RD50. I may get some Fountek Ribbons. I already have my 8" Ushers, & still happy with 'em.

Keep at it Jed, Jon, ... I'll have my speaker done in no time. :T

Can't wait to see your speaker John! Take some pics of the progress.

[capslock]

I just love their list price game. They even play it for their exclusive products. Would be illegal here.

[JonMarsh]

I really like this thread!! Those RSS210HF look great - perfect match for RD50. I may get some Fountek Ribbons. I already have my 8" Ushers, & still happy with 'em.

Keep at it Jed, Jon, ... I'll have my speaker done in no time. :T

we'll expect pictures and hope for plots- all you'll be looking for is good tunes!

~Jon

[Johnloudb]

Can't wait to see your speaker John! Take some pics of the progress.

I'll share everything, in time. My cousin, who builds cabinets for a living (the regular kind - not speaker), will be building the box. So, progress is up to him. I'm sticking to a 2-way for this speaker, since it's my first.

[JonMarsh]

Well, just because I'm dying of curiosity, I ordered one to measure.

[TacoD]

I just love their list price game. They even play it for their exclusive products. Would be illegal here.

indeed.

[PoorboyMike]

I just love their list price game. They even play it for their exclusive products. Would be illegal here.

I read on the PE board that it was a mistake when they entered the numbers into the software. They changed it as soon as it was brought to their attention. No conspiracy!

[Johnloudb]

Dayton Woofer

Well, just because I'm dying of curiosity, I ordered one to measure.

Glad to hear it. Let us know what you what you think it.

[sprint_9]

I see they also have an 8 ohm 12 inch that must be new too

[Brian Bunge]

I see they also have an 8 ohm 12 inch that must be new too

Got a part #?

EDIT: Nevermind! Found it! For those interested, PE Part# 295-444

[sprint_9]

Link to the 8 ohm 12", http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=295-444

[JonMarsh]

Link to the 8 ohm 12", http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=295-444

Interesting driver for IB or Dipole applications - Qts of almost 0.5, adequate sensitivity (86 dB/watt); two in parallel might be pretty good for an Arvo Part with 4 ohm net woofer impedance.

[Brian Bunge]

Jon,

It looks nice in about 160-200L (even more if you want more of an EBS alignment) ported too. I like the idea of being able to use two on opposing sides of a cabinet in parallel for an 8 ohm load.

[JonMarsh]

That's a BIG ported box for a 12... of course, with a Q of nearly 0.5, it needs a largish box sealed. Are you thinking a sealed force cancellation enclosure?

I won't spring for this new 12 yet, though- I've got to test the 8's and the RS180-4, the latter for another version of the Modula NeoD CC. Hope to finish the first pair with the MkII crossover today. Keep running into details to take care of, like how to fit 7 lb. of crossover in a 5 lb. space.

Now I have a 4 way Arvo idea, too. Have most of the drivers for it. Dipole from about 750 Hz down. Too bad it takes so much more time to build and test something than it does to think of it...

[Brian Bunge]

Jon,

I was saying that volume for 2 ported; not 1. But yes, for my own application I would probably use a sealed force cancellation enclosure.

[Johnloudb]

Aperiodic Dipole

I won't spring for this new 12 yet, though- I've got to test the 8's and the RS180-4,

I plan on using aperiodic vents on the back of my speaker, thinking it will make it more 'dipole' like in the low freq. I have four of these vents, which only have about 1/2 inch of medium density acoustuff like material. Sound goes right though these - I covered my mouth with one, real scientific huh? Any thoughts?



Vents:

[JonMarsh]

These are just like the aperiodic "vents" for damping which Dynaco used to use with their box speakers. The trick to how they work is that they provide additional resisitve damping to what is nominally a sealed box, and you can take a driver with a small magnet and high Qts, and reduce the Qtc in the box by virtue of the resistive damping.

Not much use with relatively large magnet drivers with low Qts like the RS180 series.

[Jed]

I think he is using the usher 8137 which has a relatively high Qts.

[JonMarsh]

I think he is using the usher 8137 which has a relatively high Qts.

Then that could work; might require a bit of experimentation to get the right damping... there is little acoustical output from these.

But I thought John had decided to use the RS210HF.

BTW, used to sell Dynaco A25's in the 70's. Was more into their tub amps and the Dyna 400, though.

[Johnloudb]

Compliance

Then that could work; might require a bit of experimentation to get the right damping... there is little acoustical output from these.

But I thought John had decided to use the RS210HF.

BTW, used to sell Dynaco A25's in the 70's. Was more into their tub amps and the Dyna 400, though.

OK, Much Thanks!! I am using the Usher 8137A a high compliance driver, Qts=0.39. Well, I'm confused about compliance. The compliance ratio for Qtc = 0.707 is 2.29 ( Infinite Baffle) according to Vance Dick... , who said that an aperiodic vent enclosure can be modeled by a sealed box of 100% fill.

I can definitely experiment with hole size, partially blocking the vents.
Well, you think this will work ... I can always start over. Maybe a sealed box.



PE info on Usher 8137A:

"The unique Kevlar and Carbon Fiber woven cone offers the best the fibers have to offer: light weight and excellent rigidity. With a high compliance design, low bass output is still achievable in moderately sized vented cabinets. This woofer is outstanding for floor standing 8" two-way systems or for three-way bass duties.

Specifications: *Power handling: 80 watts RMS/120 watts max *VCdia: 1-1/2" *Le: .30 mH *Impedance: 8 ohms *Re: 5.8 ohms *Frequency range: 33-6,000 Hz *Fs: 33 Hz *SPL: 88 dB 2.83V/1m *Vas: 2.15 cu. ft. *Qms: 2.08 *Qes: .48 *Qts: .39 *Xmax: 5.0mm *Dimensions: A: 8-5/16", B: 7-5/16", C: 3-3/8"."

[Dennis H]

who said that an aperiodic vent enclosure can be modeled by a sealed box of 100% fill.

I don't think so. AFAIK, none of the modelling programs can simulate aperiodic boxes very well. You need to just build it and measure it to see what's going on.