OT Amplification

[Jonasz]

Jon recommended the Behringer A500 in the really cheap <300 pricerange. What I didn't mention was that I needed at least four channels... ops: Do you guys think that this one would work better? http://www.emotivaaudio.com/lpa1.html According to Jim Holtz (wich I trust) it's an excellent amp, but what can you other guys add to the cheap amp category?

[dlneubec]

I can't add any others, but can heartily recommend the LPA-1. I've had mine for about 2 months and it is an absolute steal at double the price, IMHO. For someone needing more than 2 channels, I can't imagine a better choice.

[JonMarsh]

Wouldn't argue with that idea at all, but then it's not $199, either. :W

One thing to note is that Emotiva does seem to offer some products with more of a "value" orientation, and some with more of a "performance" orientation- notice the difference in price and weight between the LPA-1 and the IPS-1, or that the two channel RPA-1 weighs in about the same as the 7 channel LPA-1. Very different design approaches in some case, particularly for the power supply- don't confuse reviews for one with another. That's not to say the LPA-1 isn't a great deal and offers good sound regardless, but be realistic at the same time about what you're getting. (For example, the IPS-1 has individual power supplies for each channel, weighs considerably more, and output is rated for 8 and 4 ohms, and is 2 ohm load stable like an Aragon; the LPA-1 uses a common power supply transformer and capacitor bank, is specified for 8 ohm power and listed as 4 ohm stable. That puts it in a class more like a high performance receiver power amp.

Were I looking at these, I'd probably save my sheckels up to get the unit might be a better long term investment- there's no reason a good power amp shouldn't last 15-20 years. The one's I designed at my day job in the late 70s are still working as much as 30 years later (at ThomasW's).

[---k---]

So is the question:

(3) Behringer A500 = $600 versus (1) LP1 = $549 ???

Thats a good question. I don't know. For size, appearance, simplicity and performance it looks like the LP1 can't be beat. But, if space and not wanting three separate amps is not an issue, hummm. Probably a toss up for most of us mortals.

[cjd]

I'd go Behringer and switch to balanced cabling. (well, I already run balanced in my main setup). Short wire runs from amp to speaker, long cable runs from pre to amp. When they're balanced, they stay clean. Regardless, I think there is more flexibility with the Behringer amps.

Beyond that I would consider monoblocks, which is really my preference at this point I think.

Now that my preamp is working correctly, it's a lot easier to change volume too.

I really want to switch to something like this in the HT. Probably will run Behringers behind the front wall. Just not sure what to do with the 4th channnel, though I think it's enough to power the IB quite happily on its own. What with the Optoma HD80 being under $3k, new speakers on the brain, and room treatments too... so much to spend, so much to do, and so little time to enjoy it. Fortunately, there is other, uh, resistance to such projects (at least till all the OTHER projects get done)...

[chasw98]

If you look at the fine print, you will see that it is 'configurable' power.

"Configurable power output as follows: 125 watts/8 ohms x 6 channels or 125 watts/8 ohms x 5 channels plus 2 x 50 watts/8 ohms x 2 channels "

The A500 offers 160 per channel into 8 ohms and is 4 ohm stable to boot. A 2 second google found more than one location selling the amp for $120.00 plus shipping.

Chuck

[littlesaint]

I've had the LPA-1 for a week now and love it. I even used one channel (just one channel) to power my HSU TN1220HO sub and it had no problems.

I've used Behringer products for recording and EQ, and even though these A500s are highly recommended by some they are panned by many in the pro audio world as "getting what you pay for", and Behringer is not the first (or tenth) name I think of when it comes to power amps. Just my $.02.

[---k---]

I'd go Behringer and switch to balanced cabling. (well, I already run balanced in my main setup).
(Snip)
I really want to switch to something like this in the HT. Probably will run Behringers behind the front wall. Just not sure what to do with the 4th channnel, (snip)

Yep, that is exactly my thoughts. I've said that I want my next amp to be fully balanced. I've thought about picking up two more A500 (I made sure I built my rack with enough space for three of them). But like you, I just can't think of what to do with the spare channel and that waste bothers me morally.

There is a lot to like about a small, single box amp, like the LP1. And again, I'm wondering how much the likely small differences in sound (if any) would impact my pleasure. Probably not enough to warrant all the thought I put into it. But, hey, what else do I have to do?

[JoshK]

I just picked up one of these LPA-1s in the latest sale. I haven't plugged it in yet though as I need to make some more cables. I will try to make a comparison to the UcD400's that I have since those are my current benchmark in this system driving my Modula MTM's.

I bought the LPA-1 for a number of reasons, including having a 6 channel single channel amp to use with my DEQX for prototyping xo's and for splitting out my HT from my 2 channel system (still need to find a place to put a 2 channel system...haha) which is mostly going to be tube oriented.

Now that I actually have a surround processor and a MCH amp, I am going to have to build more Modula's to get back to surround sound which I haven't had in 7 years. I think I am going to build some on wall modula MT's for side-rear channels. My room layout precludes rearward surround placement, even from the ceilings. So 90º placement is the best bet.

[Jonasz]

JoshK: I'll be interested to hear your comparison to the UcD400's. Btw, where do you buy the UcD modules?

I need four channels for an semiactive dipole system. The subdriver is the Dayton RSS12" and the tops are MTM with a rear tweeter so the impedance will probably be on the wrong side of 4 ohms, at least in the MTM.

[jonathanb3478]

Btw, where do you buy the UcD modules?

As in "where can they be found?", or where did he find them?


If the former, try this link for the "High Grade" UCD400s.

[JonMarsh]

They're really expanded their support component options - not "cheap", but looks like a good quality approach. A good resource for many DIY components and materials that are hard to find elsewhere.

[JoshK]

I'd buy them directly from hypex.nl. They are a bit cheaper directly and it definitely makes more sense for a European to buy directly from the netherlands.

I really like the sound of the UcD400's I have (I have the AD version, which has been replaced by the HG version).

[jonathanb3478]

They're really expanded their support component options - not "cheap", but looks like a good quality approach. A good resource for many DIY components and materials that are hard to find elsewhere.

I like the modular-components-assembled-in-your-box DIY amps that that place makes possible. Not cheap, as you say, but compared to what? Buying one of the ~$1500 two-channel Class-D audiophile amps? Well, then it starts to look cheap. I built some spreadsheets with different build options from there >1 year ago. I think prices have gone up (duh), but high powered HT 5-channel amps could be made start to finish for ~$1200, IIRC. Stereo was a bit less, around $600 - again, IIRC.

I don't know. It would not be an insignificant investment to make an amp from there various components, PSU, UCDs, transformers, etc... I may do it in some distant future anyway, though. At the vary least it would be fun.

[JonMarsh]

Fun I'm sure it would be, check out Parmetal for very nice finished enclosures for this sort of application.

I still have a bunch of stuff I bought including modules for UCD400 based amp I haven't had time to completely finish- bought them to see how the sound was compared with my preferred SS gear.

[jonathanb3478]

Fun I'm sure it would be, check out Parmetal for very nice finished enclosures for this sort of application.

I still have a bunch of stuff I bought including modules for UCD180 based amp I haven't had time to completely finish- bought them to see how the sound was compared with my preferred SS gear.

Awesome. If/when you finish one, I would be very interested in your thoughts regarding how they compare to other SS stuff.

The UCD180 is the module size I was interested in, too. I run 4ohm speakers, and I only seem to be planning to build projects with that load in the future. I don't need 400w, but 180w would be useful. Especially since my "high end" (read: mid-fi) amplification is only 60w @ 8 and 75 or 90 @ 4, now. The 180HG modules would be an excellent upgrade in power, for sure.

The enclosure I found that I liked was at this place. Mostly because your first order with them is 15% off. The one I want is on their price list for their "Gray Box" line and the part number is P2F16-VT3A. It's $108 and change (plus shipping), after you take 15% off. I could fit a 5 ch amp in there, at least I thought so back in the day.

Between Lansing Enclosures, diy-cable, and digikey I would be pretty much set.

The Par-Metal stuff looks pretty good, though. It's cheaper, too. The name rings a bell (Butchie ), so I might have preferred Lansing for some reason when I was making my spreadsheets.

[Jonasz]

JoshK: I'm going back to Sweden to visit my family, probably in September, but it would actually be cheaper to buy the UcD modules here. Seems not only the european drivers are cheaper here...

Has anyone compared the UcD modules to any commercial offerings? To me it seems they would be a significant step up from the cheapest readymade (is that a word?) amps at least? Four channels of UcD-180HG power are $640 so I guess a complete amp would be at least around the $1K mark. So the million dollar question is, would it sound better than 4 channels of non-diy amp?

The good thing with diy is you can buy one part at the time, but the bad thing is it takes forever to put them together...at least for me! :rofl:

[wildfire99]

How about the ART SLA1? It's the same price as the Behringer, gets great reviews, and it won't blow up on you next month. Hunt around, and you might get two for under $350.

[Jonasz]

The ART SLA1's specs doesn't seem to indicate that it's comfortable at a <4 ohms load. Thank you for the proposition though.

[mazurek]

Just a note, my UCD 180 amps have never blown up. I've had some for quite a while. I can't give a real comparison though, in terms of SQ. I had the ST versions, on which I bypassed their input buffer to run straight from my active crossover, or my own input buffer. I bought some HG ones, and I haven't had any time to complete those amps yet, but looking at the construction, I'm not sure if its worth it for me to modify them.

I had two of their ST psu's in a crudely made and wired box, that ran for about 1-2 years, then I decommissioned them, salvaged the UCD modules and made my own custom psu and amp circuitry. I'd say the stuff is enjoyable to work with while learning, it is relatively low risk. But there are opportunities for custom work.

[littlesaint]

Has anyone heard one of these? I didn't see it when I ordered the LPA-1.

Might be useful as an integrated amp in a 2.1 setup since it has line level pass-through.

Emotiva BPA-1

[wildfire99]

Might be useful as an integrated amp in a 2.1 setup since it has line level pass-through.

I saw those the other night while I was amp shopping (yes, me too). I figured I'd rather roll the dice on the Behringer since it at least is a knockoff of a successful and well-liked design, build quality aside. The LPA-1 looks too much like an overpriced chinese import with too many "features" built in to show priority to the amplification alone, and Emotiva hasn't exactly been a famous amp brand either (due to that fiasco with substantially overrating their MPS-1's power rating--something the Behringer is just as guilty of though).

I suppose there's always the Crown XLS 202's also, which can be found either refurb or the older 'b' models for $200 ea.

I also considered just buying another Panasonic SA-XR55, but that probably won't like <4ohm loads. The positively undead/immortal Marantz MA500's are still out there for $150-200ea, but again they don't play the <4 ohm game.

I guess cheap (but good) amps are like cheap (but good) subs... they don't exist under $200.

[Hdale85]

I don't know the LPA-1 is getting some pretty strong reviews. I've been thinking about getting one rather then trying to build an Amp.

[littlesaint]

I saw those the other night while I was amp shopping (yes, me too). I figured I'd rather roll the dice on the Behringer since it at least is a knockoff of a successful and well-liked design, build quality aside. The LPA-1 looks too much like an overpriced chinese import with too many "features" built in to show priority to the amplification alone, and Emotiva hasn't exactly been a famous amp brand either (due to that fiasco with substantially overrating their MPS-1's power rating--something the Behringer is just as guilty of though).

I suppose there's always the Crown XLS 202's also, which can be found either refurb or the older 'b' models for $200 ea.

I also considered just buying another Panasonic SA-XR55, but that probably won't like <4ohm loads. The positively undead/immortal Marantz MA500's are still out there for $150-200ea, but again they don't play the <4 ohm game.

I guess cheap (but good) amps are like cheap (but good) subs... they don't exist under $200.

The best "built" power amp I've ever purchased is a NAD 2200 I got off of ebay 6 years ago for around $200. I've used it over the years to power a HSU TN1220HO. It runs bridged into 4ohms and doesn't blink. 2 years ago I did lose one channel. Took the cover off, re-soldered some connections, cleaned some relays, and it's like new again. If it ever does die, I wouldn't hesitate getting another one.

[wildfire99]

The best "built" power amp I've ever purchased is a NAD 2200 I got off of ebay 6 years ago for around $200. I've used it over the years to power a HSU TN1220HO. It runs bridged into 4ohms and doesn't blink. 2 years ago I did lose one channel. Took the cover off, re-soldered some connections, cleaned some relays, and it's like new again. If it ever does die, I wouldn't hesitate getting another one.

My best amp "deal" was an Adcom GFA 545 for $150 about 4 years ago. Worked great, even though it looked like it was straight out of the 80's. It didn't exactly sound superior to other amps I had tried (though honestly I've never heard an amp that did magically bless the sound) but it did the job without complaints. Heck, I even used it as a sub amp for a little bit, which I could tell it didn't like. I did check audiogon but it seems like even the old Adcoms are pretty expensive (comparatively) now, what with inflation and all.

Of course, the Adcom did have some pretty low wattage limits, and liked to make noise on turn on (as well as 'fart' on turn-off as the caps discharged). Still for the money it was nice. I think the OP needs a low-ohm pro-style amp though. It's silly but I bet you could get an automotive amp like that for cheap, if only you had a 12v power source.

[SQdude]

While I totally agree with Jon on the idea of saving your money for a good power amp since it will last you a very long time, at the same time the LPA-1 is so affordable that you probably could buy it while at the same time saving for a killer amp down the road. Have your cake and eat it to (with frosting of course)

[littlesaint]

You also have to look at the application. I distinguish HT from music. With HT I would look for power and dynamics and not so much soundstage, transparency, or "musicality". When it comes to 2Ch music, you should be more particular about the other elements because 2Ch music is much more revealing than HT. I think the LPA-1 is a steal for HT, but for music, it may be a bit lacking. If you like the LPA-1 for HT as I do, then the RPA-1 for 2Ch looks very nice. I may add it to my setup for my front channels...when the money's right.

[JonMarsh]

You also have to look at the application. I distinguish HT from music. With HT I would look for power and dynamics and not so much soundstage, transparency, or "musicality". When it comes to 2Ch music, you should be more particular about the other elements because 2Ch music is much more revealing than HT. I think the LPA-1 is a steal for HT, but for music, it may be a bit lacking. If you like the LPA-1 for HT as I do, then the RPA-1 for 2Ch looks very nice. I may add it to my setup for my front channels...when the money's right.

Reasonable generalizations, but then just wait until you hear an HT setup done as if for music with dynamics- you'd be amazed what's on some of those soundtracks, and what having depth of field in reproduction does for many movies, particularly True HD on HD DVD.

[cjd]

Anyone that doesn't give the same consideration to HT as to music (unless you're doing something like adding the pleasing sound of tube distortion) is absolutely selling themselves short.

The best movies also have incredible sound tracks.

C

[Jed]

Wish I had the cash laying around to pick up these Aragon monoblocks.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1189022610

[JonMarsh]

Wish I had the cash laying around to pick up these Aragon monoblocks.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....ran&1189022610

Those are first generation Palladiums. I have a pair of second generation and third generation. That price is pretty reasonable. Keep in mind these are basically bridged 8008BB, run as differential amplifiers to make a monoblock that will do 600W at 8 ohms, (~100 watts in class A, due to the biasing), and about 1 kW at 4 ohms.

Converting these to unbalanced input would require a transformer type solution, as each input pin on the XLR is just going to one of the channel inputs. It's best to install a Jensen balancing transformer internally, then you can use external single ended to XLR adapters without issues. That's what I did to my Gen 2 Palladiums. My Gen 3 were RCA unbalanced inputs with internal conversion.

They are heavy, due to the power supplies, especially the transformers. When I hear people talking about "pro" amps rated similarly that weigh 25 lb, I tend to chuckle- the latter are like the old Phase Linear amps- not much power supply rail stability, and not really very good for low frequency duty, IME.

[littlesaint]

Anyone that doesn't give the same consideration to HT as to music (unless you're doing something like adding the pleasing sound of tube distortion) is absolutely selling themselves short.

The best movies also have incredible sound tracks.

C

True, but how much attention can you give to a soundtrack, before it takes away from the overall enjoyment of a movie. My point being, critical listening of music works for me because it is a 100% auditory experience. Applying the same standards to a movie is a going a little overboard for me. I like to enjoy the movie, and being that critical of the soundtrack would take away from the experience. Maybe I just don't have the attention span or the ears to notice. As Jon said, maybe as I listen to more TrueHD stuff, my opinion will change. Of course you don't know what your missing until you know what you're missing, so who knows.

And yes I use SETs for 2Ch, which would be a bit ridiculous for HT :lol:

[Jed]

Jon,

Another amp that looks nice is the Ayre V3, which is discontinued, but they have been going for around $1k. Any words of wisdom on that amplifier? I'm looking to replace my Forte 4 with something that has more power.