New fronts and center

[bjmmy]

I’m planning on building a new center and front speakers and have been pointed in the direction of the Natalie P design for fronts and the upcoming “matching” WTMW center. I was just wondering if there is anything else out there you would recommend in the same price range (or lower) and why. It seems that the Natalie Ps are very well received. I just want to make sure they are my best fit.

The speakers will be used in a 5.1 setup that is 80% HT and 20% music. Everything is currently in a small room (half of a 12’x25’ room), but I want speakers that will work well in a larger room for the future. My sub is a DIY sealed Adire Tempest. Fronts, center, and surrounds are powered by a 7 year old Kenwood receiver (no separate amps) (will probably upgrade to Onkyo 605 before too long). With the small room and big sub, I currently have anything but a lack of bass, so am more concerned with clean sound than lots of dBs and low bass. At the same time, I don’t want fronts that produce too little bass in case I eventually demote them to an all music sub-less application.

Any advice is welcome!

[cjd]

There are TONS of options out there at any given price point, relatively speaking. The NatP is certainly a great option. A slight step down in price and size is the RS150 based MTM I've done - a little more generic in design perhaps (same crossover and it does OK as a center though that's not ideal).

Really, the biggest recommendation I have would be to go the new WTMW for your mains as well as center and not worry about the NatP. Should be a stellar performer. If you want to squeeze every last bit out of them, build your own boxes with more optimal sizing.

A step up in size (and bass performance) would be something like the WMTMW project I'm working on for Ryan (he's named it DA Khanspire I think)

[ThomasW]

Welcome from your thread on AVS...

For the money invested there's little to rival the NatP's.

Are you going to use for the rear channel speakers?

Chris is correct about using the new WMTW as a center. It will also be excellent for any other channel, with the caveat that it's at least 50% more expensive than the NatP.

[---k---]

There are TONS of options out there at any given price point, relatively speaking. The NatP is certainly a great option. A slight step down in price and size is the RS150 based MTM I've done - a little more generic in design perhaps (same crossover and it does OK as a center though that's not ideal).

Really, the biggest recommendation I have would be to go the new WTMW for your mains as well as center and not worry about the NatP. Should be a stellar performer. If you want to squeeze every last bit out of them, build your own boxes with more optimal sizing.

A step up in size (and bass performance) would be something like the WMTMW project I'm working on for Ryan (he's named it DA Khanspire I think)

You read my mind, or I read yours...

Yeah, if Jon is planing on just using the new WTMW as his HT mains (which he is), that sounds like an ideal recommendation. I've heard CJD's MTM, so if budget is tighter, I can definitely recommend that. And, if you got a bigger budget, my ego would certainly grow a little bigger if you considered our upcoming Khanspire speakers.

All of these will require a sub for HT. For music, the ported NatP and CJD MTM should be good, but they won't rock a bass head's world. The upcoming Khanspires will have the most bass, and probably would be close to full range for music (with room gain), but will need a sub for HT effects in the below 30hz stuff. You could easily build them ported (just increase the depth and stick a port in) for full range with an fs ~24hz for no sub required.

[bjmmy]

Really, the biggest recommendation I have would be to go the new WTMW for your mains as well as center and not worry about the NatP.

I know this design isn't finalized yet, but how much are these likely to run for the drivers and xo? I figure I can stretch my budget enough to go with one for the center, but I already expanded my budget to consider the NatPs...

Welcome from your thread on AVS...

Thanks!

Are you going to use for the rear channel speakers?

Right now, I have some dirt cheap Sony surrounds that I intend to replace eventually with a very inexpensive (specifics to be determined) set of 4 DIY speakers for rear/side duty. The only thing that will stay for the long haul is my sub.

The speaker that I need to replace the most right now is the center. Since I would also like to replace the fronts before too long, I figure I should take the opportunity to do all 3 at once to get them to match as well as possible. The problem is, I absolutely want to keep the build under $500 not including wood. It sounds like 2 NatPs and a WTMW would even blow that budget. I might be able to get a decent price on the drivers since I may check out the Parts Express tent sale on Saturday, but I'm not sure exactly what will be discounted and to what degree... That would also mean I'd have to get everything figured out in the next couple days, which I may not be able to do.

For music, the ported NatP and CJD MTM should be good, but they won't rock a bass head's world.

That's all I would hope for if I ever used them for music without a sub. I will still use the HT setup more than anything else for music. The other system would be auxiliary.

[Dennis H]

Hmmmm..... $500 for the front 3, I'd seriously consider CJD's MTM. They'll work sideways for a center and all 3 will be matched. There are always little extra expenses you don't plan on but Chris's design should keep you under budget and sound great as long as you always use them with a sub. I'd go with the smaller sealed design to blend with a sub. No reason you can't use the sub for music as well as HT.

http://www.eldamar.net/audio/rs150mtm/

[ThomasW]

Ponder this, (and no this isn't a dig at Chris' speakers)

Why not start with just a pair of good speakers and add more as the budget allows? This way there's no wasted investment.

Excluding cabinets the cost of parts for a pair of NatP's is around $325 and maybe less if PE has deal of the day special for any of the drivers.

If you want to add Chris' center it will match fairly well with the NatP's and be close to your budget...

However.......

If you could/would save up enough for the new WMTW you'd have a VERY nice LCR setup. Later when there were more funds put the NatP's in the back and build the WMTW for the mains.

[Dennis H]

Another good budget choice, assuming a sub is always used, is the Modula MT. You can use it for the front 3, just leaving it upright in the center position. The nice thing about the MT over any of the MTM designs is the receiver-friendly impedance curve. The MTM impedance dips pretty low and some receivers may not like it.

Edit: just read Thomas's post and the MTs could be moved to the back later as well. I don't think we should underestimate the extra expense of a 'good' amp to run any of the MTMs (or WMTWs) well. A tight budget implies a 'cheap' receiver.

[wkhanna]

I have made the Nat P’s, in a 60 litre self-made ported box. I have not heard the other speakers that are being recommended, so I can not make a comment on their performance.

What I can tell you is the Nat P constructed with ‘good’ quality xo components in a solid box will be a V good speaker delivering bass that one would never think would be possible with the size of drivers and box used along with such a reasonable price . Thinking long term, since your goal is HT, they would make exceptional rears, and you could then make a more ‘robust’ set of mains when your budget allows.

Just my humble input based on my limited experience.

[bjmmy]

Edit: just read Thomas's post and the MTs could be moved to the back later as well. I don't think we should underestimate the extra expense of a 'good' amp to run any of the MTMs (or WMTWs) well. A tight budget implies a 'cheap' receiver.

This is an interesting idea. It looks like I could do 3 Modula MTs for about $130/ea. The only bad thing is that they are so physically large to use as rears. I don't know that I currently have room for them, but might by the time I am ready to demote them to rears. I do currently have a very cheap receiver. It's an old Kenwood VR-309. I plan to upgrade maybe later this year to an Onkyo 605 or equivalent, but will likely never use a separate amp. What does someone without an audiophile's ear lose from the NatP to the Modula MT? Low end? Clarity? dBs? Maybe I would be happy with the Modulas...

[---k---]

I've briefly heard the Modula MTs on my Pioneer 1015tx, it handled them fine. It is still much better than retail speakers or whatever. A separate amp is better, but I don't think it is something to worry about right now. You can grow into it. I'm not sure of the specs on the Onkyo you keep mentioning.

[Dennis H]

I haven't heard any of them so I'm just guessing. Mostly you'll lose a little SPL before the distortion sets in. But crossing pretty high to sub will help that. FWIW, forum member Jim Holtz built the MTs and the NatPs and preferred the sound of the MT. YMMV blah blah, all the standard disclaimers.

If you want to cross the MTs to a sub, you can build a smaller sealed enclosure. Keep the baffle width and the position of the tweeter from top/sides the same (the crossover is designed for that) but cut the box volume down to the 3/8 - 1/2 cu.ft. range, going for about 10 liters net after you subtract the volume of drivers, crossovers and braces. Should work great with an 80 Hz THX-style crossover as the woof will be rolling off about 80 Hz just like a real THX speaker.

[cjd]

FWIW, you can usually build a ported design and stuff the port when you have a sub in the mix. Works quite well with my MTM (which I currently have as mains in my HT)

Also, unless your mains are really far apart from ideal, Thomas has a good suggestion that you consider just mains and going phantom center. Unless you host large movie parties (a dedicated center gives folks not in the sweet spot a better deal - but people in the sweet spot may not even notice the difference).

C

[bjmmy]

I've briefly heard the Modula MTs on my Pioneer 1015tx, it handled them fine. It is still much better than retail speakers or whatever. A separate amp is better, but I don't think it is something to worry about right now. You can grow into it. I'm not sure of the specs on the Onkyo you keep mentioning.

The Onkyo TX-SR605 is nothing special, but sells for only $400 and has all the features I want. My point is just that the speakers I have will need to play well with your typical big box electronics store home theater receiver.

FWIW, forum member Jim Holtz built the MTs and the NatPs and preferred the sound of the MT.

Well, that sounds promising.

If you want to cross the MTs to a sub, you can build a smaller sealed enclosure.

I assume if I build the "standard" ported Modulus MTs they would be a little more versatile, right?

Also, unless your mains are really far apart from ideal, Thomas has a good suggestion that you consider just mains and going phantom center. Unless you host large movie parties (a dedicated center gives folks not in the sweet spot a better deal - but people in the sweet spot may not even notice the difference).

Based on my current setup, I'm not too eager to go that route. When watching TV, my receiver is not smart enough to switch to prologic when the source switches to 2ch on SD channels. With only the front speakers active, it sounds pretty bad because you're watching a person in the center of the screen and hearing their voice right and left. I think the issue there is that I have a front projector with an 84" 16:9 screen and the fronts are on the sides of the screen - too far apart to not have a center channel.

[Jim Holtz]

I haven't heard any of them so I'm just guessing. Mostly you'll lose a little SPL before the distortion sets in. But crossing pretty high to sub will help that. FWIW, forum member Jim Holtz built the MTs and the NatPs and preferred the sound of the MT. YMMV blah blah, all the standard disclaimers.

Hi Dennis,

I might add this to your comments. I liked both the Natalie P's and the Modula M/T's. There are more similarities than there are differences in sound quality. I think my preference for the Modula M/T sound quality had more to do with the Seas 27TDFC tweeter vs. the RS28 in the Natalie P's. It is very probable that others would prefer the Natalie P's.

Both are excellent speakers and great values. You won't go wrong with either one. BTW, the Modula M/T is an 8 ohm speaker but not very efficient so it soaks up more watts. They play comforably at normal levels in my daughters room with a 10 year old Onkyo receiver. The Onkyo also powered the Natalie P's easily until I sold them.

FWIW.....

Jim

[catacon]

I have built a pair of both the Modula MT's and MTM's. The MT's sound great and I would use them as fronts, but since I built the MTM's, I am now using them as surrounds. The MTM's are more expensive than the NatP's, but I understand that you can't tell the difference without very high end equipment. I am in agreement with some of the others that you should build the MT's and then move them back later when you get money to build better fronts, whether it be MTM's, WMTW's, or something else. Currently I am using an extra RCA speaker I have for a center until I get the money for the new WMTW. You might find this is an acceptable option as well.

Hope that helps,
catacon

[bjmmy]

BTW, the Modula M/T is an 8 ohm speaker...

I just realized I skipped over the fact that the NatPs are apparently 4 ohm. I just looked it up and apparently my Kenwood VR309 receiver won't work for 4 ohms. I guess that rules out the NatPs since I don't want to upgrade my receiver right now and have no pre-outs for an external amp. :M

I also realized I have less than 12" below my screen to the hutch that sits under it in which to place a center. This rules out the Modula MT as a center unless I rearrange furniture (which I could do). If I rearrange furniture, I could just as easily use a tower as a center, but I've ruled out the NatP... The more I get into this project, the more confused I get!!!

[Bent]

you have a Kenwood 309 that hasn't calved it's IR sensor yet?

[bjmmy]

you have a Kenwood 309 that hasn't calved it's IR sensor yet?

Huh? Is that a common problem with them? Mine occasionally will be silent when I turn it on, but when I turn it off and back on, it's ok. I haven't had any IR problems, though. At any rate, I do intend to replace it before too long, but am not ready just yet.

[PoorboyMike]

My Pioneer receiver doesn't say it works with 4ohm speakers, but it powered the Nat P's just fine. I think your Kenwood will do the job until you upgrade, so long as you don't try playing at concert levels for long periods of time. :lol:

Another option for you to check out, since you are on a restricted budget, would be Zaph's BAMTM . Those could also be moved to surround duty once you have more of a budget. I haven't heard these, but people who have seem to like them quite a bit. And while not ideal, you could build a 3rd for center duty, which could also be used later as a rear in a 6.1 set up.

[bjmmy]

My Pioneer receiver doesn't say it works with 4ohm speakers, but it powered the Nat P's just fine. I think your Kenwood will do the job until you upgrade, so long as you don't try playing at concert levels for long periods of time. :lol:

Another option for you to check out, since you are on a restricted budget, would be Zaph's BAMTM . Those could also be moved to surround duty once you have more of a budget. I haven't heard these, but people who have seem to like them quite a bit. And while not ideal, you could build a 3rd for center duty, which could also be used later as a rear in a 6.1 set up.

I wish there were some way to know for sure without building Nat Ps and trying them if my old Kenwood will run them.

What about the Triune or Tritrix designs on PE's website? I know those use much cheaper drivers than the Dayton Reference drivers, but I wonder how they compare.

The other thing I have thought of is to build a good center channel now (since that is my most pressing need) - even though it wouldn't match my current fronts at all. I could then take a little more time before building some decent fronts that would match the new center. My current center channel speaker is really absolutely awful...

[technimac]

What about the Triune or Tritrix designs on PE's website? I know those use much cheaper drivers than the Dayton Reference drivers, but I wonder how they compare.

Interesting timing, as Curt C just completed revoicing both the TriTrix MT

(found here: http://www.pesupport.com/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=361032 )

and the Triune, using the 8ohm version of the Dayton 5.25" Classic and the latest version of the silkie.

There is a center channel version of the Triune available as well.

Problem is that the impedance drops below 4ohms at one point with the new crossover.

Updated Triune changes are posted on his website at:

http://www.pesupport.com/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=362986

[Dean100]

I have built the Nat P's and they sound great. On that note, I beleive that you will get much better sound out of them if you use a very good receiver or separates.

Don't know much about your Kenwood, but the Nat P's are good enough to give you alot more when fed by good equipment.

I am running mine with a B&K AVR305 receiver that has 150 W per channel and I would like to upgrade to a separate amp.

So, start with something that your budget will allow and then move them to the rears as more money becomes available.

[bjmmy]

Well, I'm still trying to figure out if my receiver might handle 4 ohm speakers but having lo luck confirming so far. Correct me if I'm wrong, but of the speakers mentioned in this thread, the following are all 4 ohm designs:

New WMTW?
Natalie P
Chris' RS150 MTM
Triune

Of the speakers mentioned here, these are 8 ohms:

Modula MT
Zach's BAMTM

That doesn't leave me with many options. I looked at the specs for some of the receivers I might look at to replace mine and they say 6-16 ohms. Excuse my ignorance, but why are so many DIY designs 4 ohm speakers when the cheap big box receivers are all geared for 8 ohms? Are all of you using separate amps, higher end receivers, or just using receivers that call for 8 ohms anyway?

[cjd]

Zaph's BAMTM is also 4ohm

The TriTrix is 8ohm

I should be able to work up an 8ohm version of my MTM using the 4ohm RS150 drivers - it just won't be shielded. And there's no absolute guarantee it'll work out just right since I won't have the drivers in-hand to actually test with.

[Sefferdog]

Well, I'm still trying to figure out if my receiver might handle 4 ohm speakers but having lo luck confirming so far. Correct me if I'm wrong, but of the speakers mentioned in this thread, the following are all 4 ohm designs:

New WMTW?
Natalie P
Chris' RS150 MTM
Triune

Of the speakers mentioned here, these are 8 ohms:

Modula MT
Zach's BAMTM

That doesn't leave me with many options. I looked at the specs for some of the receivers I might look at to replace mine and they say 6-16 ohms. Excuse my ignorance, but why are so many DIY designs 4 ohm speakers when the cheap big box receivers are all geared for 8 ohms? Are all of you using separate amps, higher end receivers, or just using receivers that call for 8 ohms anyway?

I have built the Nat P, Modula MT, Chris' RS150 MTM, a version of the Tritrix and Triune, amongst other 4 ohm designs, and ran all of them at one time or another off of a cheap Onkyo receiver I have hooked up to my computer that say to go no lower than 8 ohms. No problems. I doubt your Kenwood would have any trouble either. That said, as far as suggestions, I am currently running Nat Ps in the front, Modula MTs in the rear and can recommend that setup whole heartedly!

[bjmmy]

Zaph's BAMTM is also 4ohm

The TriTrix is 8ohm

I should be able to work up an 8ohm version of my MTM using the 4ohm RS150 drivers - it just won't be shielded. And there's no absolute guarantee it'll work out just right since I won't have the drivers in-hand to actually test with.

Hmm... Since your standard design is 4 ohm and you wouldn't be able to test it, that might not be the best idea for someone of my expertise...

[bjmmy]

I have built the Nat P, Modula MT, Chris' RS150 MTM, a version of the Tritrix and Triune, amongst other 4 ohm designs, and ran all of them at one time or another off of a cheap Onkyo receiver I have hooked up to my computer that say to go no lower than 8 ohms. No problems. I doubt your Kenwood would have any trouble either. That said, as far as suggestions, I am currently running Nat Ps in the front, Modula MTs in the rear and can recommend that setup whole heartedly!

If my receiver did have problems, what would the likely result be? Would it just refuse to power the speakers? Sound bad somehow? Overheat? Clipping? All of the above?

This is a bit off topic, but can anyone explain why most of these speakers are 4 ohm and most receivers are designed for 8? Is it just a matter of the speakers being out of the league of the cheap receivers?

[cjd]

It's easier to build cheap electronics that can't handle a low load. And I think a lot of places fudge their impedance ratings anyhow.

Generally, most amps are fine 4ohm even when rated 8ohm as long as you don't push the output levels. I use an 8ohm rated amp on my MTM's all the time, and run out of excursion before I've ever clipped the amp. I DID send the amp into protection mode using it to power my big towers.

FWIW, I actually did my initial MTM design without drivers to measure. However, I measured before I built, and found I did not need to make any crossover changes... So it's very likely a good crossover would result.

Have a couple of the 4ohm drivers + return shipping sent my way and I can plug 'em into my boxes and measure and send 'em back when I'm done.

[PoorboyMike]

If my receiver did have problems, what would the likely result be? Would it just refuse to power the speakers? Sound bad somehow? Overheat? Clipping? All of the above?

This is a bit off topic, but can anyone explain why most of these speakers are 4 ohm and most receivers are designed for 8? Is it just a matter of the speakers being out of the league of the cheap receivers?

It likely wouldn't have any problems what so ever at moderate listening levels. Hell, it might not even have any trouble if you crank it. I forgot to mention this before, but I took my NatP's to work and powered them with a cheap JVC receiver. It ran them all day without a glitch. The main difference between a 4 and an 8 ohm speaker is that the 4 ohm will draw more current out of your amp due to less resistance. It's not a big deal really, and I don't think you will have a problem with any of those designs.

[Hdale85]

As long as its a speaker that doesn't dip far below 4ohms you'd probably be alright. Something like the big MTMWW RS 3 ways would not be so good as they dip down to something like 2.7 ohms at times.

[bjmmy]

Thanks so much for all your help! I guess I will assume that my cheapo receiver would be ok with most of the choices mentioned here.

Now for a really dumb question: Do all of the speakers in a 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1 system have to match impedance? Can I have an 8 ohm center with 4 ohm fronts and 8 ohm rears? Sorry if this is an obvious question, but I couldn’t find any articles online that answered it.

[cjd]

Impedance matching may be less a concern than sensitivity matching - most receivers allow you to adjust at least +/- 6dB at each speaker to balance it all out. If you can do this, you should be fine with varying impedances.

[bjmmy]

Impedance matching may be less a concern than sensitivity matching - most receivers allow you to adjust at least +/- 6dB at each speaker to balance it all out. If you can do this, you should be fine with varying impedances.

My receiver will let me do that. Thanks so much for the help!

[cjd]

I should have said, you will be fine with both varying impedances and varying sensitivity.

Far as I know, you should never have an issue with varying impedances.

[---k---]

Have a couple of the 4ohm drivers + return shipping sent my way and I can plug 'em into my boxes and measure and send 'em back when I'm done.

I think you already have enough projects right now.

[bjmmy]

Well, thanks to all your help (and you have all been a HUGE help), I've decided to build one of the new WTMWs for my center as soon as the design is completed (assuming that's not to long from now - I'd like to get started soon). A couple months down the road (since this will be more than my original budget), I will probably build 2 more for fronts. My center is certainly my worst speaker currently and rather than go some route where I plan for having to build upgrades, I want to do it right to begin with. Thanks again and I'm sure you'll see me in the build thread once it gets started!

[---k---]

I think that is wise, but the only downside is once you build one pair, you will want to build more. :B

[cjd]

:lol:

And, once I have the measurement setup all rigged and calibrated, tossing a couple drivers in an existing box and measuring is rather simple.

I have lots of time on the train for crossover tinkering once I have data to work with.

:P

C

[---k---]

I know. I was just teasing. How bad is your train ride. I'm going to be doing it everyday soon. From here it is 32mins.

[cjd]

express is an hour and 12 each way.

If I miss the express, an hour + 38. Add between ten and twenty minutes for the 5 miles from station to house (depends on traffic and weather - I pass multiple schools no matter what route I take so that always slows me down in season.

[---k---]

yeah. I was looking at a job in skokie, which was going to move to gurnee. It would have required moving up there. Wife said that there was no way she could do the 1:12 train ride every day.