Statement VS Orion

[joemana]

Hi:

Is there someone who both heard the Orion and Statement? A big difference in sound quality?
I'm asking this because I just completed my Orion and 8 channel Amp. and very happy with the sound, but I have a problem with my room. It's almost at the middle of my living room following Linkwitz positioning suggestions.
So, if the sound quality is close, maybe it's time for me to order parts for Statement and get rid of my Orion.

Thanks,

Joe

[Jim Holtz]

Hi:

Is there someone who both heard the Orion and Statement? A big difference in sound quality?
I'm asking this because I just completed my Orion and 8 channel Amp. and very happy with the sound, but I have a problem with my room. It's almost at the middle of my living room following Linkwitz positioning suggestions.
So, if the sound quality is close, maybe it's time for me to order parts for Statement and get rid of my Orion.

Thanks,

Joe

Hi Joe,

I know everyone or just about everyone that has heard the statements at this point and my guess is none of them have heard the Orions.

I wouldn't hazard a guess between the two. The Orion is certainly highly regarded by everyone that hears it, but like all Di-Poles, it has placement restrictions which must be followed to have the full benefits of the potential sound quality. That placement doesn't work for my living situation and I have a dedicated listening/home theater room.

The statements do have the flexibility of easy placement and possess many of the benefits of a di-pole sound stage. I hope that one of these days they can both be heard and evaluated by a group of people so realistic feedback on sound quality could be given.

If you find some one, I'd love to hear their comments.

Jim

[ThomasW]

Apples vs oranges, sort of...

My experience with fullrange dynamic driver dipoles is they're more forgiving of less than optimal placement compared to a 'box' design.

[Davey]

Definitely apples and oranges Joe.

What are your room dimensions and where do you have the Orion's placed now?

Davey.

[Mazeroth]

I'm sure the Statements are a fine pair of speakers but I'm not sure comparing them to the Orion is a very fair comparison. I had a chance to listen to a pair of Orions at Jeff Bookwalter's house (he's listed on Siegfried's site) and they were the best speakers I've ever listened to, period. Where dipoles truly shine is in the last few octaves thanks to their dipolar radiation pattern, which helps mitigate room modes and interactions. The Statements employ dual RS225 drivers up to 350hz in a monopolar configuration whereas the Orions are still working in dipole.

Like the others have said, you really can't compare a $730 speaker (parts) to a multi-thousand dollar speaker like the Orion. I'm sure the Statements can stand up to and beat commercial speakers costing 5x their cost but they're probably going to fall a little short to the Orions.

[Jim Holtz]

I'm sure the Statements are a fine pair of speakers but I'm not sure comparing them to the Orion is a very fair comparison. I had a chance to listen to a pair of Orions at Jeff Bookwalter's house (he's listed on Siegfried's site) and they were the best speakers I've ever listened to, period. Where dipoles truly shine is in the last few octaves thanks to their dipolar radiation pattern, which helps mitigate room modes and interactions. The Statements employ dual RS225 drivers up to 350hz in a monopolar configuration whereas the Orions are still working in dipole.

Like the others have said, you really can't compare a $730 speaker (parts) to a multi-thousand dollar speaker like the Orion. I'm sure the Statements can stand up to and beat commercial speakers costing 5x their cost but they're probably going to fall a little short to the Orions.

I suspect you are right but I'd sure like to hear Orions, NaO's and the Statements back to back at a DIY event. How come Orions are never brought to DIY events for show and tell? SL sells it in a kit. The NaO's were at Iowa in 2004 and were exceptional.

Who's going to bring their Orions to the Iowa DIY this fall?

Let's see what they're all about...

Jim

[Davey]

Let's see what they're all about...

Jim

You crack me up Jim.

Davey.

[joemana]

I'm sorry, maybe I should have thought of little better title on the thread.
I understand that this is an apples and oranges in terms of monetary value on parts.

I post this just to have an idea on which (soundstage, bass, etc.) I'll miss if I build the Statement. I already read three good reviews on Statement. I want to build this at least I can place it a little closer to the wall.

I'm worry that one of this days, my wife will gonna get mad (she had'nt say anything yet, but you never know) and poke all four millinium tweeter. She might get tired seeing the speaker almost at the middle of the living room.

Davey,
The room is 16X23 kitchen/living room combo with dinning table. I already re-positioned my setup to get the best out of the room. I don't have much choices.

About the sound, Orion is also the best that I've ever heared, it is close to real but I haven't hear much high end speaker anyway. My only comparisons are lower end Martin Logan, Sonus Faber Cremona and B&W 800 with diamond tweeter. I will not bother to mention below $5K.

Thanks for all the responsed.

Joe

[Jim Holtz]

I'm sorry, maybe I should have thought of little better title on the thread.
I understand that this is an apple and oranges in terms monetary value on parts.

I post this just to have an idea on which (soundstage, bass, etc.) I'll miss if I build the Statement. I already read three good reviews on Statement. I want to build this at least I can place it a little closer to the wall.

I'm worry that one of this days, my wife will gonna get mad (she had'nt say anything yet, but you never know) and poke all four millinium tweeter. She might get tired seeing the speaker almost at the middle of the living room.

Dave,
The room is 16X23 kitchen/living room combo with dinning table. I already re-positioned my setup to get the best out of the room. I don't have much choices.

About the sound, Orion is also the best that I've ever heared, it is close to real but I haven't hear much high end speaker anyway. My only comparisons are lower end Martin Logan, Sonus Faber Cremona and B&W 800 with diamond tweeter. I will not bother to mention below $5K.

Thanks for all the responsed.

Joe

Hi Joe,

If you are anywhere near the Midwest, you are welcome to come to my home and audition the Statements. I am "finally" disassembling them this weekend so I can finish the cabinets and make them look as good as they sound. I anticipate being down for about 2 weeks. I have my line arrays as back ups so I'll not go into music withdrawal.

Good luck on your adventure and feel free to email me if you have any further questions.

Best regards,

Jim

[mmoeller]

Can't wait to hear the Statements at 07 DIY.

[Davey]

Joe,

I wasn't referring to the monetary difference.

Its apples an oranges with regard to the concept and type of speaker. The Orion is pretty much a full dipole system implemented with conventional drivers, dedicated active equalization, etc, etc. The radiation pattern and room excitation will create a presentation somewhat different (more realistic IMHO) than a conventional system like the Statement. The "open back" midranges of the Statement system do not make it a dipole system in my view.

You already have a much superior speaker system (IMHO) than the Statements. Do your best to make them work in your room and trade your wife in on another model if she has a problem with that. Your room dimensions seem fine to me. Not unlike the dimensions of my room where I have them placed on the long wall about 4.5 feet from the wall behind.

Check over at the Orion Users Group and ask about placement issues from other users who have similar setups to yours.

Cheers,

Davey.

[Brian Walter]

Joe,

If you don't want to have your speakers so far into the room, try them out at a distance you think will be acceptable to your wife and see how they sound. Yes it may not be optimal, but I suspect the Statements may sound slightly better further into the room as well. The question is how much difference is there, and is it worth the fight with the spouse. You could simply move the speakers further out into the room when you are going to listen to them, versus always keeping them out that far.

I would also suspect that whatever you loose by moving the Orion's closer to the wall is probably also going to be missing with the Statements at that same location. I'm sure both speakers sound excellent and which you prefer is probably going to be a personal preference sort of thing which will also be influenced by the room.

Brian Walter

[ahaik]

Hi,

Just wanted to add.
I am planning on taking the statements to my brother's father in law, he is a true audioholic with HUGE experience and a very expensive system (his cables cost as much as my system).
He has all Mark Levinson (CD, DAC, Amp, Preamp) and Dynaudio C4 ($15k) which he bought after auditionning many many speakers.
This would happen in the next couple of weeks I hope.

Also a nephew of a good friend of the family owns a high end audio store (real high end).
I plan to bring them to his store to hear his impressions, but this will happen after I finish them since I can't show up with MDF's :E .

Asi.

[Dennis H]

It's almost at the middle of my living room following Linkwitz positioning suggestions.

I've never heard of him suggesting that. He recommends at least 1m from the wall to front baffle and the 'perfect' placement in a small room would be speakers equal distance from the front wall as the chair is from the back wall. I'd give 'em a try in a position that makes your wife happier.

About which sounds better, with all due respect to Davey, I don't think anyone knows without listening to both. Even if one did sound better in one room, the story might be reversed in another room.

[Davey]

About which sounds better, with all due respect to Davey, I don't think anyone knows without listening to both. Even if one did sound better in one room, the story might be reversed in another room.

It's possible......but, IME not likely. I've listened to a large number of conventional systems in my listening room and they all take on a similar characteristic which I find ultimately dissatisfying.

There are certainly going to be differing room dimensions, outfitting, WAF issues, etc, for other users. However, the nature of the two different propagations points to the superiority of the dipole concept in most listening environments. IMHO.

Now, for users like Jim Holtz who are not listening 100% to well-recorded music and the system does other duties then maybe the scale tips the other way.

Cheers,

Davey.

[cobbpa]

Hi,

Just wanted to add.
I am planning on taking the statements to my brother's father in law, he is a true audioholic with HUGE experience and a very expensive system (his cables cost as much as my system).
He has all Mark Levinson (CD, DAC, Amp, Preamp) and Dynaudio C4 ($15k) which he bought after auditionning many many speakers.
This would happen in the next couple of weeks I hope.

Also a nephew of a good friend of the family owns a high end audio store (real high end).
I plan to bring them to his store to hear his impressions, but this will happen after I finish them since I can't show up with MDF's :E .

Asi.

I like this...way to have guts Asi :T I don't know much about those higher-cost commercial speakers, but if the Statements are anywhere close to the Dynaudios or many of the setups in the store, I'll feel warm & fuzzy.

[Jim Holtz]

Now, for users like Jim Holtz who are not listening 100% to well-recorded music and the system does other duties then maybe the scale tips the other way.

Cheers,

Davey.

Hi Davey,

That's not true. I *only* listen to extremely well recorded Jazz, Blues and Pop. I found poorly recorded music un-listenable many years and many systems ago.

You are correct about home theater but I demand the same standard from home theater sound as I do with music. I'm actually quite discriminating sound wise.

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

Hi,

Just wanted to add.
I am planning on taking the statements to my brother's father in law, he is a true audioholic with HUGE experience and a very expensive system (his cables cost as much as my system).
He has all Mark Levinson (CD, DAC, Amp, Preamp) and Dynaudio C4 ($15k) which he bought after auditionning many many speakers.
This would happen in the next couple of weeks I hope.

Also a nephew of a good friend of the family owns a high end audio store (real high end).
I plan to bring them to his store to hear his impressions, but this will happen after I finish them since I can't show up with MDF's :E .

Asi.

Hi asi,

I'm really looking forward to hearing the results of your listening sessions. It sounds as if you'll be comparing to very. very high end systems. It'll be fun to hear the results!

Jim

[Davey]

Jim,

You use your speakers for HT usage also, correct? That is NOT "well recorded music." Which is what I said.

And I didn't say you weren't discriminating, did I?

Also, I wish you would get out of the habit of quoting the entire message of the post you're replying to. These threads move along fairly quickly and everyone knows what you're referring to. It really makes the pages frustratingly long.

Cheers,

Davey.

[Jim Holtz]

Jim,

You use your speakers for HT usage also, correct? That is NOT "well recorded music." Which is what I said.

And I didn't say you weren't discriminating, did I?

Davey.

Hi Davey,

I wasn't suggesting you were making a disparaging comment. I was only trying to clarify my tastes. Home Theater is strictly for movies. I rarely if ever watch concert DVD's and would agree that it isn't of the same quality as well recorded music on CD.

If my response came across any other way, I apologize. I just like really good music and very clean, detailed and dynamic home theater.

Jim

[Brian Walter]

Don't feel bad Jim, I interpreted Davey's comment about you not listening to 100% well recorded music the same way you did. Obviously he meant something slightly different. This only goes to show that the written word is not always interpreted as one intends.

I think Davey's primary point of view (stated as his opinion) is that the Statements most likely won't sound as good as the Orions simply because they are not dipoles. While I'm sure some people would have differing opinions, I think the bigger question in this case is whether or not the Statements with the open backed midrange sound more like monopoles or more like dipoles. I think this also ties in directly with Joe's initial question about how the sound of the two compared. It would be really interesting to compare the Statements side by side with the Orions and a well designed monopole.

Brian Walter

[Mazeroth]

Hi,

I am planning on taking the statements to my brother's father in law, he is a true audioholic with HUGE experience and a very expensive system (his cables cost as much as my system).
He has all Mark Levinson (CD, DAC, Amp, Preamp) and Dynaudio C4 ($15k) which he bought after auditionning many many speakers.
This would happen in the next couple of weeks I hope.

Asi.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Statements come out on top over the Dynaudio C4s. They look like a conventional monopole speaker to me with dual tweeters, for whatever reason (marketing I'm sure).

http://www.dynaudiousa.com/products/confidence/c4/c4.htm

[cjd]

All I have to say is, you're missing some stellar performances if you limit yourself to well recorded music.

C

[Jim Holtz]

I think Davey's primary point of view (stated as his opinion) is that the Statements most likely won't sound as good as the Orions simply because they are not dipoles. While I'm sure some people would have differing opinions, I think the bigger question in this case is whether or not the Statements with the open backed midrange sound more like monopoles or more like dipoles. I think this also ties in directly with Joe's initial question about how the sound of the two compared. It would be really interesting to compare the Statements side by side with the Orions and a well designed monopole.

Brian Walter

Well Brian, you did it again. You said very concisely in one post what I've been trying to say in several. I would find that very interesting as well. Thanks for jumping in.

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

All I have to say is, you're missing some stellar performances if you limit yourself to well recorded music.

C

Hi Chris,

I'm an analytical listener rather than an emotional one. I tap my foot too but I'm dissecting the sound rather than the performance while I listen. I hope that makes sense.

Jim

[cjd]

Well, it makes sense logically but that's it - it almost doesn't compute, to try to imagine listening this way... man, I feel for ya.

[Davey]

Boy, you guys are real sticklers on the language. Sorry my comment was misunderstood.

I simply met that well recorded music (not DVD movie soundtracks) would be the reference for a two-channel system. (Other than live music of course.) I use my Orion system for hi-fi only and no HT usage. I know Jim uses his for multiple tasks.

I enjoy a lot of not-so-well-recorded music myself. In fact, as I speak an Alison Krauss CD is spinning that is a fairly poor recording. Very enjoyable music though.

Actually, I think it's rather humorous that a thread exists trying to compare the Orion to a "Statement" system like the one in question. I guess nobody else sees the humor in that.

Cheers,

Davey.

[joemana]

Guys,

I've mentioned the Statements to my cousin and it look likes He is interested. He have not done any diy speaker yet,I told him that I'll take care of crossovers and other wirings, all he need to do is build the cabinet. He will go on vacation the next two weeks, hopefully he will not spend all his money on that vacation or else my hope to hear the Statements will be kapoop. I know he'll gonna get hook once he started this one. Later,He will ask for center or rear speaker to build.

Hi Jim,
Thanks for the offer, I appreciate it. I live in San Jose, Ca., so its very long drive. If you really want to hear the Orion, visit SL sites, You may find Orion owner on the list close to your area.

Hi Dennis,
I don't mean that SL recommend to position the speaker at the middle of the living room. What I meant was, that after I moved the speaker 4ft from the rear wall and 2ft from the side wall the speaker is sitting almost the middle of my living room.

Hi Davey,
I read most post (if not all) on the Orion forum.
Maybe I need to re-read some of them.

About my wife, that is only a joke. She never complain on my speaker addiction. In fact yesterday, I was listening (what a boring life) to the music the whole day, I thought I'm getting dizzy or there is something wrong with me for a very long hours of reading and listening to the music. It's almost like (illusions?) somebody at the top of TV everytime somebody sing a song.
So I asked my wife to sit besides me ( she doesn't sit and just listen to music she rather wash the dishes) to prove that I'm not getting cocoo.
I asked her to listen to the music, most of them have instrumental at the beginning and the vocals later, the sounds very clearly move left and right and she'll says: at left then right but everytime somebody sings (vocal portion) she was always mystify and said the sound is at top of TV. She told me it's from the TV when I told her the TV is OFF, then she told me from the center speaker above the TV, it's not connected. Then she walked in between the speaker and said: Maybe they are too close to each other that's why the sound goes to the middle. She suggested that maybe I need to move it further away from each other.
Maybe that is one of the trick so She will feel needed and involved hah..

One last final note: Again, I don't have a problem positioning the speaker to sound properly, it's just where it stand.

Thank you very much for all you guys who gave suggestions and advice.

Joe

[tktran]

This is an interesting little thread, and I'm learning more about some people than some loudspeakers in question.

LOL.

[Jim Holtz]

Guys,

I've mentioned the Statements to my cousin and it look likes He is interested. He have not done any diy speaker yet,I told him that I'll take care of crossovers and other wirings, all he need to do is build the cabinet. He will go on vacation the next two weeks, hopefully he will not spend all his money on that vacation or else my hope to hear the Statements will be kapoop. I know he'll gonna get hook once he started this one. Later,He will ask for center or rear speaker to build.


Joe

Hi Joe,

It looks like you'll be 1st to hear both Orions and Statements. I hope you can listen back to back in the same environment. I'd like to hear the Orions but going to someones home with different equipment and music will not create an auditory memory that I feel is valid unless I can switch back and forth between speakers. You have that opportunity.

Please report back with your listening impressions. I'd really like to hear what you think. Again, please feel free to email me with any questions that you may have during the building process.

Best regards,

Jim

[AJINFLA]

Hi Joe,

Could you suprise me with a picture of the Orions in your room? Something seems slightly amiss. If your room dimensions are 16x24 (I'll assume 16'W), why would 4' from the front wall place them disproportionately out into a 24' deep room, even with dining taking up some of that rear area? Why would they be only 2' from the sidewalls? That would place them 12' apart outside edge to edge. They are just over a 1' wide, so an equilateral triangle would place you about 11' back and 15' from the front wall. I don't own Orions but I have several speakers that operate on that same type platform. The placement that you seem to have seems rather sub-optimal. Is there a large TV between them?
When you auditioned the Martin Logan, Sonus Faber Cremona and B&W 800's, did they not create a strong center image with vocals? How did their imaging/soundstage differ from what you are hearing now?



cheers,

AJ

BTW, ever heard the Too Bar tape? .

[joemana]

Hi Jim,
I'm sure I'll have some questions later and I know that YOU ARE THE MAN.
Thanks Jim

HI AJ,

I'm sorry I can't provide the picture because I have a problem (maybe cable,getting error message) downloading the pictures.

This is the third time I'll mention that I have no problem with the quality of sound on my setup. The problem is the speaker sitting almost the middle of the room.

A couple of years ago, I have similar set up as your sketch except the speakers were close to the left wall (with fireplace at middle).

Present setup is: Speakers 8ft apart with 50" TV between speaker,4ft from front wall, 2ft from left wall. Listener 8ft from speakers around 4ft from back glass door.
This is close to SL's recommendation on his Orions construction manual (at least 4ft from tweeter to rear wall and at least 2ft from side wall). I can't ask for anything more when it comes to the quality of the sound/setup.

WARNING: This is mostly non relevant to topic If you don't want to bored yourself to death.... DO NOT READ THIS PORTION.....just want to reply on AJ's question about center image.

About my audiontioned: I usually remember something that is good and something that is bad, if it's normal it don't stick to my brain.
Martin Logan -the only thing that I remember was I keep on telling the guy to lower the volume. It sounds ok maybe I did not pay attention on center image.
Cremona- Sound's good, I remember the good center image but not as pronounce as what I experience presently.
B&W- this is not fair because that beautiful expensive speaker was outside the individual demo room. It sound good but I didn't remember the center image maybe because I'm expecting to WOW me to death with that price tag.

I'll tell you those that stuck to my mind.
B&W 700?series- When I raised the volume a lot higher than my listening level, It felt like somebody poke a sharp pin in my ears. I quickly grab the control and thank the guy.
Vienna Acoustic-Beethooven Center Image was very good, I remembered
sticking my ear to the non-working center channel and I asked the guy twice if He connected the rear channel because I kept on hearing the sound at my back (there is glass wall and sorround speaker at my back, don't know if the glass caused it).
I thought I'll buy that speaker but when I came back after several months, It didn't impressed me as when I heard it the first time.
Orion- Listened to about six songs Saleen Dion's CD ' Didn't remember the center image. It didn't impressed me except for small portion with foot drum (it sounds real).I was ready to go home with doubt (because for everything that I have read on different forums and reviews that, that was the best speakers that they ever heard and comparing it to those very expensive ones) in mind if I'll build it. The nice guy who let auditioned his Orion, Asked me if I can stick for one more cut. So, I did, He dimmed the light,raised the volume almost double than my listening level and played something that until now I can't figured out what is it?
It sound like a mass in the church with choir performing at background. It (it is unbelievable feeling) felt/reminds me of when I was about around 7 years old (almost fifty years ago) with my mom in the church.

Hey folks if in case your brand of speaker was mentioned on bad side, I hope you won't get offended. They are all good sounding speakers.

Sorry AJ If went on and on and on...

Joe