What would you build for this HT room?

[LoopinFool]

Looks like I'm getting the bug already...long post warning...

I've currently got a small Axiom 5.1 speaker (M22 mains, VP100 center, QS4 surrounds, EP175 sub) set up on a Denon 3802 receiver. We've remodeled the basement to include a "media room". I've never been happy with the sub so first planned to replace it with a Hsu or SVS, but research led me to really want to build a Rythmik 12" sealed sub. That will be the first project.

The room is just 10.5' x 17' x 7.5', and even just under 7' in places for the ductwork. The love seat will be ~10' from the 43" plasma, with lots of space to the back (angled) wall.

The purpose is almost entirely HT. We care a lot how soundtracks sound, but won't do much dedicated music listening here. I like the look of on-wall bookshelves and it's a pretty small space for large floorstanders. At least one person ends up extremely close to a side wall, so the diffuse surround we get from the current QS4 speakers works well. I could definitely see a pair of direct-radiators for future rear surrounds and I've wired for those.

I know I'll have to do some serious room treatments in the future. At least the room dimensions seem to have done a pretty good job of taming echo and room modes, just from being in the room a bit (sound system is still upstairs for now).

So, don't need much volume to fill the room, and don't like it cranked real loud anyway. Would like to be able to stick with a receiver to power them, but that's not a requirement. The current speakers are an easy 8ohm load and are pretty efficient, but something like the Natalie Ps might need a better amp. I really seem to prefer the sound of sealed speakers and this system will always be crossed to a sub.

So, what would you build? Happy to hear budget options, cost-no-object options, etc. I got to hear the Seas Odin kit recently, and that gave me some real hope for how a future DIY system could sound. I know those are overkill drivers, but they sure do sound nice! The upcoming WMTW center sounds like a nice option, but even that may be more than this room needs.

Thanks a lot, and I hope this spurs some good discussion,
- LoopinFool

[Andy_G]

An idea only...

This is just a basic idea sketch I have been playing with for a friend with a similar problem.


Driver are totally undecided, and if anyone wants to play with this idea, feel free to go for it, its an open idea. I can't use drivers you would probably choose anyway.

I have shown him this pic as possible rears.

[AJINFLA]

Andy,

The drivers that close, parallel to the wall is not always such a good idea because of the wall reflection summation on the primary output. That's why Zaph slanted his little wall mounts IIRC. See here Wall mount

cheers,

AJ

[Andy_G]

Ok, thanks AJ. Those bipole (sorta) wall mounts in the lower pic worked quite well.

It does give some ideas for coping with places one can't easily put normal speakers, and for thin rooms with big screens where there is also little room for the speakers next to the screen.

Thanks

[LoopinFool]

Yeah, the Axiom QS surrounds have no drivers on the parallel surface (the "null"). All of their drivers are either perpendicular to or 45° from the wall. I think they sound very nice as surrounds, but the little QS4s I have sound just a little thin perhaps because the drivers just don't have any room to "breathe".

So does anyone have some non-tower non-ported suggestions for us? Is the Modula MT the answer to my needs? Will the upcoming WMTW be too much speaker for the room and a first-time non-sub w/crossover build? We've enjoyed these speakers for the years we've had them. After doing some speaker auditioning, I believe we can do much, much better for similar cost by going DIY. I'm just not at all sure what to build (never heard that one before, have you?).

- LoopinFool

[---k---]

Jon's upcoming WMTW might be just the ticket from those posted here. Probably should build the center, then once you have it, decide whether you want to build NatPs (Jon has said it will match the WMTW) for the LR or more WMTWs.

Neither the WMTW or NatP are really that big. I think they will work fine in your room. If you got the budget, I would take them over the just the MT - why limit yourself, you'll just be upgrading in a year. With a Denon receiver, you should be fine driving them. I'm sure they will sound better on a fancy amp, but you won't run into protection faults with the Denon.

There are other projects around the net. CJD has a MTM here that is very good and a little smaller than the NatPs. Zaph and others have lots of projects. You'll kill yourself trying to analyze all the differnt projects. If you can't hear them locally, just pick one. You'll be happy and likely wanting to build the one you didn't select in a year.

I'm not a fan of dipole surrounds and find that direct radiating speakers work just fine with good dolby digital mixes - especially with 5.1 music. I think the Modula MT will make nice surrounds when you get there.

Finally, I think you'll want more sub than a single 12 rythmic. We're not supposed to get into discussions about the quality of the rythmics here. But, just don't kid yourself, it is a 12" sealed sub. It has to observe the laws of physics. To get enough bass to satisfy many around here, you would need at least a 15" and more likely twin sealed 15"s or ported 15". At least consider two rythmic kits.

[LoopinFool]

Thanks for the input, Ryan. I agree the new WMTW looks very promising, especially as a midrange/vocals oriented center. It might be a tough first build, and I'm not sure of budget constraints. Not entirely my decision...

I'm slightly concerned about floor/ceiling interactions with vertically oriented WMTWs. Am I wrong? Will there be off-axis issues with them as L/R?

In a room this narrow, direct radiating surrounds can be tough. If you calibrate them right for a center viewing position, it's too loud and prominent for the person who's ear is just a couple feet from the speaker. Putting them up near the ceiling introduces lots of other problems, too. That might be the answer, though. Also, I've never heard a good home theater set-up with direct-radiating surrounds. I have been in a few very nice set-ups, but they all had dipole surrounds. Maybe I'd like it. I don't know.

As to the sub needs, keep in mind this room is <1400 cu ft! It also has two BHDs (big heavy doors) that can close it off from the bathroom and the rest of the basement. My two complaints with our current 10" ported sub are that it's boomy and doesn't go nearly low enough. It's got enough SPL output for our needs, and I believe the 12" rythmik has quite a bit more. We're not reference level people, though we might inch closer if I can set up a really good room. Plus, my wife doesn't like loud bass. Choosing the servo sub is mainly to get very clean bass so I might get enough output for my likes without her needing it turned down. I did wire for two subs (both in front, though) for placement flexibility and possibly two subs in the future.

Thanks again,
- LoopinFool

[PoorboyMike]

Just a note on the bass thing.

My wife used to hate subs when I had ported 10" and 12" commercial subs (an Infinity and an Athena). Now that I have built a couple nicer ones (a sealed 15" and a low tuned ported 12) she has changed her mind. It really does make a huge difference when you have quality bass. :T

[---k---]

Don't know about the off-axis response of the WMTW speakers. Someone smarter than I will have to answer that.

As for bass, the lower you want to go the more driver you are going to need. It just takes a lot of driver to produce those sub 25hz frequencies. As you can see, I have a twin 15" ported sub (had twin 15" sealed subs first). It is calibrated level with the rest of the system. Throw in your favorite music cd, and it sounds fine, not bassy. The sub is loafing. But then throw in something stupid like War of the Worlds and it will make your chair feel like it is levitating there is so much bass. My wife also doesn't like bass much, but she enjoyed the minor rumble in the seat when the cars in Cars drove by. It is fun. I've come to find that a lot of a good sub won't sound bassy or bad, and is there when you need it for those movie sound effects. Little subs can sound great, but they don't the big sound effects justice.

Swing on by sometime and I'll make you lust for a big sub.

[LoopinFool]

Little subs can sound great, but they don't the big sound effects justice.

Swing on by sometime and I'll make you lust for a big sub.

I guess I wanted to keep the sub driver relatively small since it would probably be crossed over to pretty small sealed speakers. I don't know how well good 15" sub drivers handle >60-80Hz material. Then there's the size issue...I still miss my old Polk SRS pair...

Careful what you offer! I'm just up the road in Madison and make it down to Schaumburg fairly often.

- LoopinFool

[cjd]

Well geeze.

Stop by my place on the way down. Experience an IB.

[LoopinFool]

Well geeze.

Stop by my place on the way down. Experience an IB.

I'd love to. Of course, there ain't no IB gonna live in this little house. So, is it a laundry room, or is it a speaker cabinet? It's a laundry room and a speaker cabinet!

I bet you've got a few other toys also worth listening to...

- LoopinFool

[LoopinFool]

Just one bump on this before I let it rest...

I really appreciate the input so far, but I really was hoping a couple of people might be willing to answer my initial question. I'm looking for just a little brainstorming from this group full of knowledge. What speakers do you think would be most appropriate for this very small movie-and-tv-oriented room?

The main constraints are that it's a very small room, I think I prefer the sealed sound, the speakers will probably mount to the wall, and we don't need to build the best speaker possible. After turning the basment into a really nice living space, we're on a tighter budget than usual.

Thanks a lot!
- LoopinFool

[ThomasW]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=861195

Didn't get a whole lot of input over at another forum:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=26370

I'm hoping you guys are better at brainstorming. I do like the looks of the designs they do over there!

If you don't want to read my long post over there, I think it boils down mainly to this:

Home theater setup (5.1 now, maybe 7.1 later), really small dedicated room (<1400 cu ft), prefer receiver driving them, think I prefer sealed sound, probably wall-mounted, moderate listening volumes most of the time, don't need the best but would like to clearly improve on current Axiom set-up.

You're welcome to add your own impressions re: one rythmik 12" sub for this room, but that was covered over there (MORE BASS! ).

Wouldn't mind thoughts on no center channel. In the past, we've found phantom to "creep" too much off-axis for dialogue. Perhaps that was due to the speakers, room, arrangement, or all of the above.

- LoopinFool

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