Orbital vs. palm sander

[Finleyville]

Anyway...

I only know that the palm sander can use standard sandpaper cut to size and the orbital uses hook and loop backed circular sanding sheets. Some orbital models have dust collection too.

Besides that what are their differences? Are they used for different jobs? Is one inherently better than the other?

I am building speaker cabinets and need some type of electric sander to help me get a piano-like finish. I do not woodwork very often and only can afford one of these right now. I do not need both.

Thanks for the answers and the model suggestions! :T

[Paul H]

Because of their swirling motion, orbital models leave a less distinctive scratch pattern from the sandpaper, and sand more aggressively (quickly) than a palm sander.

If you're buying one only, get an orbital.

I own one of the Rigid sanders, and like its dust collection (not perfect but decent).

Do a search or two on piano finish - be warned of the effort and time it will take.

[Amphiprion]

General advice:

Buying one sander, get an orbital.

Buying two, orbital and a belt.

Three, orbital, belt and a pad.

For a piano finish, I don't know what the best technique would be.

[BigJim_inFLA]

You should not be using an electric sander to get a piano finish. After you paint you need to be using fine grit sandpapers and sand by hand, usually with water. Getting a piano gloss finish is much the same as getting an excellent automotive finish. Orbitals and DA sanders are great for removing alot of material early on in the finishing process, but once you spray primer or paint you only use the sander attached to the end of your arm. That being said, if you need to remove alot of material and can only get one sander, get the orbital.

Jim

[PMazz]

Orbital all the way.

I'll disagree with Jim and say the orbital is perfectly fine for sanding out a finish. They sell pads for orbitals for just this purpose.

http://www.outwaterhardware.com/catalog/form08.asp?page=1132

Pete

[capslock]

Same with me, I use Mirca Abranet 400 and 600 and then Abrolon 600, 1000, 2000, 4000 on an orbital sander. After Abralon 4000, the surface is almost glossy.

Why are those other things called palm sanders? The ones we get here can hold either 1/2 or 1/3 of a sandpaper sheet, so they are not exactly palm sized. Or are you talking about a delta sander?

[ThomasW]

Why are those other things called palm sanders?

Perhaps it's because the 'head' of the unit nests in the palm of one's hand....

[orbifold]

Finleyville, here is a great link for piano finish:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=83141&highlight=

The only thing is, you'll be best served using laquer--as far as I know. Never tried to smooth other types of coating materials. Seems the experienced users , some love orbital, some palm sanders to bring down the original "orange peel" to a flat finish. Shinobiwan, in the link above, likes the palm, I used a palm, PMazz likes orbital. I didn't have the good sandpaper with the "hooks" for my orbital. 3M Imperial, 1500, and 2000 grit, in other words. Using either mechanical sander (wet) will get you to dead flat. But you'd better get a fully fixed, body shop-even coat. Funny how things start show up once the shine comes on, and then you have to add auto body putty with the plastic spreaders, or approved equal, spot prime, and flood coat again, and make sure to get enough material on to sand without uncovering red, or tan filler.
The real work starts after that with polish, I used Meguire's and Turtle from a auto parts store. Sound like the voice of recent experience? Yup, I'll post these as soon as i get a good pic:




Still needs lots of polish, and I don't think I got the right microfiber cloths, but I'll do the rest of that as time permits. A center follows, I'll try to do it right the first time then!

[technimac]

I use this Bosch 1295DVS for the majority of my sanding tasks. It's relatively quiet, has an excellent dust collection system and is built quite well. It's the best ROS I've used...by far.

Here's a review:

http://www.newwoodworker.com/reviews/b1295DVSrvu.html

For getting in tight corners I occasionally use this Ryobi 18V cordless corner cat sander.


But this unit is "back heavy" with the battery attached, has no dust collection and drains the battery pretty quickly. The Ryobi doesn't even come close to the performance of the Bosch.

You can also hand-sand in corners with a block and pad for those few times you really need to.

Orbifold, Wow, I'm looking forward to seeing those finished!

[orbifold]

Finleyville, missed your first message...

I see you're using crystalac. That answers that. Please check the thread above--alot on the polishing routine. I saw the pic in your earlier thread. Get it flat enough that no shiny spots still show. I did use a foam pad that came with my Rigid orbital to do the early part of the polish. The pad died just as I did the last section of black :B:B
Technimac, working hard on that post. Daughter came home form school and right away put up some acoustic baffles for me--otherwise known as a pile of shoe boxes! We'll clear those out and get a real "socks" picture out. Soon, Soon, they are sounding good :T

Dave

[capslock]

Orbital all the way.

I'll disagree with Jim and say the orbital is perfectly fine for sanding out a finish. They sell pads for orbitals for just this purpose.

http://www.outwaterhardware.com/catalog/form08.asp?page=1132

Pete

Outwater seem to discourage orders to end user. They prominently display the wholesale / $75 minimum order, but if you read the about us, it becomes way more forbidding:

"Outwater Hardware is a Wholesale National Distributor of specialty hardware items to other commercial entities.
We do not solicit nor sell products to retail customers or "end-users".
We greatly appreciate your understanding if you are not a reseller, and ask that you find other sites to fulfill your hardware needs."

Do they sell to private customers? Their trizact pads are about 1/5 of what they are in Germany!

[Finleyville]

Became a member of the more $$ than sense club!

Anyway...

My overcompensation gene kicked in today. This is what I bought.


Here it is.


It was $360+tax!! 8O I justified it by saying that I could probably wax and polish my car with it too. I haven't used it yet. I think I will probably exchange it for their smaller 5" orbital: ES 125 EQ, the Bosch 1295 DVS, or the Porter Cable 333VS.

I used it in a Woodcraft store. This thing has absolutly NO vibration at all. Also when you just are holding it and move from a horizontal to vertical plane there is NO gyroscopic inertia pulling at you. The dust collection is top notch too. After sanding some test pieces there was no dust left anywhere: on the piece or in the air! You really could use this thing sitting on your couch watching TV if you wanted. :T

I do not think I can justify this much tool for me when I maybe do one/two small projects a year. Oh well, live and learn... :roll:

[Amphiprion]

No gyroscopic inertia is cool. It's never affected my work, but feels weird in the hand.

[JonP]

I use this Bosch 1295DVS for the majority of my sanding tasks. It's relatively quiet, has an excellent dust collection system and is built quite well. It's the best ROS I've used...by far.
[

I got one of these, there was a package deal at HD or Lowes, forget which... where you got the Bosch Jigsaw and that sander for only $15-20 more than the base price of the jigsaw. (both were about $150, think the sander is about $80 alone) Wanted the jigsaw, probably use the sander 2-3 times as much. ;-) Worth keeping your eyes open for deals like this...

The dust protection (suction from internal fan into chamber with filter) works pretty good, if you keep ahead of dumping it out. I've heard people complain about it, but I've found that when the filter gets clogged (can happen pretty fast) the suction goes and the dust stays. Dump often, shopvac the filter clean, and you don't see much dust. Rapping on the dust box helps clear the filter before you have to remove the whole thing, too..

Mostly I use the orbital for major flattening, do a lot of hand sanding as well, and when there's grain that I care about the looks of, I go to hand sanding with the grain. But the orbital is great for getting a lot of the first pass sanding done fast.

[PMazz]

Outwater seem to discourage orders to end user. They prominently display the wholesale / $75 minimum order, but if you read the about us, it becomes way more forbidding:

"Outwater Hardware is a Wholesale National Distributor of specialty hardware items to other commercial entities.
We do not solicit nor sell products to retail customers or "end-users".
We greatly appreciate your understanding if you are not a reseller, and ask that you find other sites to fulfill your hardware needs."

Do they sell to private customers? Their trizact pads are about 1/5 of what they are in Germany!

Sorry, I just linked to them because I buy from them commercially. I thought they would sell to individuals, but I guess not. I don't know where else to look.

Pete

[CraigJ]

I don't know if this post is too late. Amazon has the Bosch 5" ROS w/free 50 pack of 60 grit discs $69.97 + Free shipping I have the Porter-Cable 343 and 333 5" ROS's and enjoy them.

Craig

[technimac]

I got one of these, there was a package deal at HD or Lowes, forget which... where you got the Bosch Jigsaw and that sander for only $15-20 more than the base price of the jigsaw. (both were about $150, think the sander is about $80 alone) Wanted the jigsaw, probably use the sander 2-3 times as much. ;-) Worth keeping your eyes open for deals like this...
The dust protection (suction from internal fan into chamber with filter) works pretty good, if you keep ahead of dumping it out. I've heard people complain about it, but I've found that when the filter gets clogged (can happen pretty fast) the suction goes and the dust stays. Dump often, shopvac the filter clean, and you don't see much dust. Rapping on the dust box helps clear the filter before you have to remove the whole thing, too..
Mostly I use the orbital for major flattening, do a lot of hand sanding as well, and when there's grain that I care about the looks of, I go to hand sanding with the grain. But the orbital is great for getting a lot of the first pass sanding done fast.

:agree:
The Bosch jigsaw is also highly rated, so that kind of deal sounds like one to look out for. :T
I also frequently empty the dust box by banging it on a scrap piece of wood over the compost bin (gotta keep those worms happy :B ), and vacuum the filter (using a brush to get the caked-on dust out of the pleats) as you mentioned.
Additionally, those "orbital" scratches will show up on wood with beautiful grain, .... so there's no getting around doing some hand-sanding with the grain if you want the best-looking finish possible.
But the ROS does get you 80% of the way there, if you go with progressively finer grits before hand-sanding.

[Finleyville]

I have the Porter-Cable 343 and 333 5" ROS's and enjoy them. Craig

I am glad you like the PC333. That's the one I have my eye on when I probably return the Festool. Do you use a vacuum or the dust bag? I'm interested in the dust collection efficiency. I plan on hooking up my small shop vac to it.

[capslock]

Sorry, I just linked to them because I buy from them commercially. I thought they would sell to individuals, but I guess not. I don't know where else to look.

Pete

Well, they only discourage explicitly on the "about us" page, other than that they just display the $75 minimum order prominently, so they might actually sell to individuals. Has anybody tried?

[CraigJ]

Do you use a vacuum or the dust bag? I'm interested in the dust collection efficiency. I plan on hooking up my small shop vac to it.

My PC333 works very well hooked to a small shop vac. I also have one of Harbor Freights inexpensive motor controls to turn down the shop vac's suction power.

I was under the impression that the PC 343K was the new model. Home Depot sells them for around $53.

[Finleyville]

effit! I am keeping the Festool sander. Now hopefully I will never have to buy another sander again!