What thickness for sonotube?

[Scott Simonian]

Hello.

I am about to begin a dual Sound Splinter RLp18 LLT sonotube project. I think I have pretty much everything down except for one little thing I don't understand fully...

...is there a certain thickness of sonotube to use?

Every thread mentions a length and inner diameter but no thickness. I thought I had read that there are different thicknesses but its never brought up. These will be very large and I had to bump down my original design of 28" inner diameter to a 26" inner diameter to make sure it fits through my doorway.

Just wanted to know so when I call my supplier, if they ask, I can answer. Heh.

[---k---]

I've seen differences in thickness from one brand to the next in the small diameter tubes (like 6" - 10"), and only heard it rumored with the larger diameters.

I think it is safe to say, that if a tube can hold 28" dia by 5' tall of concrete, it will be acceptable for a subwoofer. I wouldn't worry about it. Buy what you can get your hands on easily.

If you want to worry about it, you can always add wood stiffners to your tube.

[Scott Simonian]

Oh, cool! Guess I don't have to worry about it.

I am not worried about the rigidity of the tube. No, not so much. I just had heard of other thicknesses in the past but never heard it mentioned in recent threads. I've never ordered a sonotube before so I wasn't sure if the supplier would ask if there was a certain brand or thickness I would want.

Since they seem to be similar, does anyone know how thick an average 26" inner diameter tube would be?

[Dennis H]

To get a 26" tube you'll probably need to go to a concrete supplier rather than a box store so you should get tubes with thicker walls. I've never used any that big but the smaller ones I got from a supplier were about 1/4" wall.

[relder]

Hello.
These will be very large and I had to bump down my original design of 28" inner diameter to a 26" inner diameter to make sure it fits through my doorway.

I'm not sure if you're aware, but if a 2 inch difference will ruin you, keep in mind that these are quoted as "nominal" diameters, not exact. They do this to be able to ship several, say, 26" tubes within one another to save shipping volume. Preferably you go to a place that has several in stock and pick the closest diameter that you want, but that of course isn't always possible. Best you might be able to do is have them make sure the 26 incher you order is something close to an actual 26"

Rob

[MOState]

I'm not sure if you're aware, but if a 2 inch difference will ruin you, keep in mind that these are quoted as "nominal" diameters, not exact. They do this to be able to ship several, say, 26" tubes within one another to save shipping volume. Preferably you go to a place that has several in stock and pick the closest diameter that you want, but that of course isn't always possible. Best you might be able to do is have them make sure the 26 incher you order is something close to an actual 26"

Rob

Thats exactly right. When I worked at Lowe's people would always question me when I told them "Just because it says 8" doesn't mean its exactly 8 inches"

As far the thickness goes...the person that said it will hold 5' of concrete is correct. At that depth the internal pressure is 750 lbs/ft^3 (for concrete of course)....im doubting a sub exerts that much pressure throughout the whole tube.

[Scott Simonian]

Hmmm...

Im pretty sure it would dramatically alter my entire alignment if I get a size that isn't 26 inches inner diameter. Didn't know that the size can change like that...

I am pretty certain I will be ordering these from a concrete supplier in town. They have locations all over the US. Whitecap is the place. Assuming that I had to order that size anyway. Wasn't positive if the thickness was something to worry about since I have such a tight squeeze.

The door is able to fit up to 29". You guys think I'll have a problem fitting that through a 29 inch opening?

[Dennis H]

I'm not sure if you're aware, but if a 2 inch difference will ruin you, keep in mind that these are quoted as "nominal" diameters, not exact. They do this to be able to ship several, say, 26" tubes within one another to save shipping volume. Preferably you go to a place that has several in stock and pick the closest diameter that you want, but that of course isn't always possible. Best you might be able to do is have them make sure the 26 incher you order is something close to an actual 26"

Rob

Rob, are you sure that's the case with the 'good' brands, e.g. Sonotube, not the Home Depot garbage? A lot of architects and structural engineers would be plenty P.O.'d, and the structure would fail the building inspection, if a builder built columns in a commercial structure that were smaller than spec'd in the plans. And the builder wouldn't want to pay for the concrete to make bigger columns. Think how much the extra concrete would cost for a stacked parking garage if all the columns were 1/2" bigger than spec. Probably enough to buy the builder a new Benz.

[---k---]

I'm pretty sure that the real sonotubes come in the exact size. It is the Home Depot / Lowes ones that come in nominal.

Whatever. After you get the tube, you can measure the inside diameter and adjust the length to fit.

[WillyD]

I'm pretty sure that the real sonotubes come in the exact size.

They can actually vary. Apparently for shipping purposes one or more of the tubes will be a bit larger in diameter so one or more can fit inside. I have name brand Sonoco sonotube and it is 24.5" ID.

[MOState]

Think how much the extra concrete would cost for a stacked parking garage if all the columns were 1/2" bigger than spec. Probably enough to buy the builder a new Benz.

I can't say whether the real sonotubes, rather than the quikrete tubes, are exact dimensions or not. But I would pick something other than a parking garage for your analogy

Around here anyways, parking garages are all pre-cast concrete, so no sonotubes. Even if they did, its common practice to allow for estimators to allow 5% waste for concrete

[rnoble]

Don't forget the principle behind the sonotube is that the tube itself (besides the end caps) is one single 'side' and therefore internal pressure is exerted evenly across the entire surface of the tube. The strength of the circle is well documented I don't have to lecture you but that's the reason you can get away with the 10mm or so of sonotube and not worry about pressure or 'flex'.

[relder]

Rob, are you sure that's the case with the 'good' brands, e.g. Sonotube, not the Home Depot garbage? A lot of architects and structural engineers would be plenty P.O.'d, and the structure would fail the building inspection, if a builder built columns in a commercial structure that were smaller than spec'd in the plans. And the builder wouldn't want to pay for the concrete to make bigger columns. Think how much the extra concrete would cost for a stacked parking garage if all the columns were 1/2" bigger than spec. Probably enough to buy the builder a new Benz.

From http://www.sonotube.com/products/com...dvantages.html :

Available in nominal diameters for easy storage and transport

If they were all 1/2" bigger you wouldn't get the shipping advantages mentioned. Some are a little oversize some are a little under, concrete consumption evens out.

[Scott Simonian]

Hey guys...

I called WhiteCap yesterday and talked with a sales rep. As I expected, they did not have the size there and would probably have to order it. No estimate on how much that will cost. No mention from him of brand or thickness. Shouldn't be a problem, I guess.

Btw - I told him what I was using it for and such. Made him aware that there was a "effective volume" I needed to get...

...He mentioned "square sonotube". Huh? They make that? Anyone heard/know about that?

[MOState]

...He mentioned "square sonotube". Huh? They make that? Anyone heard/know about that?

Yes. Think of it as a normal cylindrical sonotube with a "square" insert in the middle. They aren't perfectly square though. They normally have chamfered corners to allow for a more "finished" look and ease of release

[Scott Simonian]

Oh sweet! So the corners are rounded? That is what I pictured. I'll have to take a look at those when I go by their store.

[---k---]

Yes. Think of it as a normal cylindrical sonotube with a "square" insert in the middle. They aren't perfectly square though. They normally have chamfered corners to allow for a more "finished" look and ease of release

Haven't seen one. But, it sounds to me like that would defeat our purposes of using a tube design. You're back to needing a heavily reinfoced box.

edit:
ah. http://www.sonotube.com/products/square.html
if you remove the tube, you end up with a floppy box. definitely a no-go. If you don't remove the tube, what's the point?

[Dennis H]

Nevermind, K beat me to it.

[Scott Simonian]

edit:
ah. http://www.sonotube.com/products/square.html
if you remove the tube, you end up with a floppy box.

Ugh! If that was what he was talking about, forget it. Rep was supposed to call my cell phone sometime after I got out of work yesterday...hmmm. I guess I'll call them back tomorrow.

[Scott Simonian]

Called them yesterday since I hadn't heard back from them. Apparently they lost my phone number. I get a call just a few minutes ago, SPECIAL ORDER. $300 for 26 inch ID sonotube!!!

WTF!?!?!

I am furious right now!

He told me I might be able to get a bigger one (didn't say what size) and that I could cut it length-wise to fit into my room and reglue it together. Never heard of anyone doing that so I don't think I want to be the first....

Omfg, I am soooo pissed.

[Dennis H]

Yeah, I think 24" and 28" are standard sizes and should be cheaper than 26". Can you make a 24" work?

[Scott Simonian]

I don't think so. I would lose a tremendous about of effective volume and the 26 inch ID tube was already compromising my original design. The owner never told me what size he said he could get that was bigger than this. The problem is is that not only would it not fit through my door but I wouldn't be able to fit them in the same corner if I went bigger. 26 inch ID it is...

Hmph. I wanted 28" ID but that was not available either...

[WillyD]

You could technically fit the 28" tube through the door, because the naked tube can flex and fit through. I know from experience.

But of course you have a problem when you put the endcaps in, especially if they are permanent. Oh well.

[Ecir38]

What effective length was you planning to use for the 26" sono?

[Scott Simonian]

You could technically fit the 28" tube through the door, because the naked tube can flex and fit through. I know from experience.

But of course you have a problem when you put the endcaps in, especially if they are permanent. Oh well.

That was the original idea. Yes, I feel that they would end up being glued on there. Heh. Yep. Can't do that one. Damn, skinny doorways! Heheh.

What effective length was you planning to use for the 26" sono?

About 5'10" to 6' in length. This should give me ~560 effective liters. That includes the volume taken up by the eight inch tube for the vent.

[oxcartdriver]

26 inch ID it is...

Hmph. I wanted 28" ID but that was not available either...

My concrete supply store only carries 20,24,30 or 36 for the larger tubes.

I had previously asked about special order and the guy laughed and said I really wouldn't want to know the price.

The 24 was $6 per linear foot.

[Scott Simonian]

They didn't even have 24 inch. Can you believe it? Even said "one guy" comes in and buys out all their eight inch sono's every once-in-a-while. I am so upset right now. The local hardware places give me funny looks when I ask for such large sono's. I don't know what I am doing wrong. ...must be going to all the wrong places. Whitecap was the first to be recommended but at $300 for the job...I think I'd rather change the design back to an MDF box.

Unfortunately for me, it looks like that is what will happen. I will call around some more this week. Thank you so much, everyone, for the help. Much appreciated.

[WillyD]

They didn't even have 24 inch. Can you believe it?

No, I can't believe it. That is crazy! I can get 24" tube in Charlotte, NC. Why can you get it around Fresno?

[Scott Simonian]

I don't know but he said they didn't have that size. It wasn't a "usual" size. Gimme a break.

*sigh*

As much as I do not want to work with so much wood...I've done some simple calculating and I would be able to go over my original size if I just make two 4ft x 4ft x 2ft sub cabs.

Whattaya think? With those I can go over ~700 liters each (yes!) and tune around 11-12hz.

Hmmmm.....

[Dennis H]

Call around. You want places that deliver ready-mix concrete, you know with the huge trucks. There must be a number of them in your area.

About 5'10" to 6' in length.

Why can't you use a 24" and build it taller? It doesn't need to fit through the door upright, just be short enough so you can tip it up in the room.

Edit: PS the $6/ft. mentioned above sounds about right for 24".

[Scott Simonian]

Why can't you use a 24" and build it taller?

It doesn't need to fit through the door upright, just be short enough so you can tip it up in the room.

Understandable. The height was never a problem for this build. My ceiling is over 8 ft tall. The reason I wasn't going to go with 24" is because I would have to buy two sonotubes. Sonotube is sold is 12ft lengths. So I would have a ton of excess, non-usable tubes everywhere. I am building TWO subwoofers. Two RLp18's in my possession.

....doesn't make a difference since neither places I checked out even carried the 24". I am sooo screwed. ops:

[Dennis H]

Good stores will cut to length and charge you by the foot. $6 sounds about right. The phone is your friend.

[oxcartdriver]

The $6/ft for 24in I mentioned earlier is cut to length.

The place I bought my sonotube from is a concrete company which sells mostly concrete by the truck load. The concrete supplies/accessory business is secondary to them.

I would try concrete companies and they should be able to point you to a supplier with large diameter sonotube.

[---k---]

Those RL-p18 need a LOT of volume, huh.

[Scott Simonian]

Good stores will cut to length and charge you by the foot. $6 sounds about right. The phone is your friend.

I am going to try some more stores this week and weekend.

I would try concrete companies and they should be able to point you to a supplier with large diameter sonotube.

Thats what I've been looking for in the yellow pages. Most places shrugged me off as "small potatoes" so I am not too sure about my luck.

Those RL-p18 need a LOT of volume, huh.

Oh, you better believe it! I can't wait to show you guys how small my room is when they are in there. Haha!

[WillyD]

I can't wait to show you guys how small my room is when they are in there.

Wow, two massive Rl-p 18 subs in a small room? You're crazy!

[Scott Simonian]

What can I say?

I planned for excess...

[Scott Simonian]

Hey everyone!

No luck at all on finding sonotube in town for my size. Changed the build to a MDF based box. Thanks for all the help, guys!

Build thread started here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post10511964

[Dennis H]

Well that sucks, Scott. But the good news is you can finish the MDF to look like a 'real' speaker with a nice veneer, paint or whatever. Just add a hand truck to your build cost (also handy for moving fridges, etc.)

[Scott Simonian]

Yeah...I was pretty disappointed when I decided to switch over to a box. A tube will be used somewhere down the road...someday.

Gonna have plenty of hand trucks, straps, and a few buddies to help move the suckers.

Maybe I'll make a build thread here when I get it rolling. Definitely be putting the finished product in the "Subwoofer Showcase" thread in the 'Mission Accomplished' area.