Sony TAP9000ES as an active gain control

[johnvb]

Does anyone here have any comments on using the now discontinued Sony TAP as a 6-channel gain control, between a Behringer DCX2496 and power amps?

http://www.stereophile.com/solidpreamps/700/

A fellow over at the MUG stated it wasn't "linear" enough to use for this sort of app. I already have one of these, now gathering dust...

Heres another question, will a combination of the Behringer CX2310 (or CX3400) analog crossovers, along with a 1124 FBD, do pretty much the same as the DCX?

[JonW]

Sorry I can't help. But I'm also looking for some sort of 6 channel volume control to go between my DCX2496 and the power amps. Chuck (chasw98) might be devising something to cobble together. I'm also considering getting a 7.1 recevier of some sort to use for the purpose. The Yamaha RX-V659 seems to be well regarded and is pretty cheap (maybe $350-400-ish) compared to many other options out there. I haven't decided yet, though. I'll be interested to see what responses you get.

[ThomasW]

Does anyone here have any comments on using the now discontinued Sony TAP as a 6-channel gain control.......A fellow over at the MUG stated it wasn't "linear" enough to use for this sort of app. I already have one of these, now gathering dust...

Don't know why it wouldn't work that's what it was designed to be...

Heres another question, will a combination of the Behringer CX2310 (or CX3400) analog crossovers, along with a 1124 FBD, do pretty much the same as the DCX?

The 1124 isn't a flexible, so it can't create shelving filters. etc.

Sorry I can't help. But I'm also looking for some sort of 6 channel volume control to go between my DCX2496 and the power amps.

We've discussed this a couple times.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=24272&highlight=Emotiva

[chasw98]

Does anyone here have any comments on using the now discontinued Sony TAP as a 6-channel gain control, between a Behringer DCX2496 and power amps?

http://www.stereophile.com/solidpreamps/700/

A fellow over at the MUG stated it wasn't "linear" enough to use for this sort of app. I already have one of these, now gathering dust...

Heres another question, will a combination of the Behringer CX2310 (or CX3400) analog crossovers, along with a 1124 FBD, do pretty much the same as the DCX?

Actually if yours is gathering dust, I would be willing to let it gather dust at my house! :B
The Sony is a unique unit that is becoming more prized as time goes on (think about using it for switching between SACD and HDDVD/BLUray players with multichannel output?).

Seriously, I have acquired an Alps motorized 6 gang 20K variable resistor that I am integrating into a remote control unit to be able to control the gain after my 2496. This guy in Denmark has a good reputation and is offering some unique solutions that will work if you don't want to use your Sony (or let me have it! :B )

As Thomas said, the 1124P/2310 combo will not do what the 2496 can do.

Chuck

[johnvb]

Are most of you folks satisfied with the performance of the built-in DAC inside the Behringer? (I don't own a high performance stand alone DAC, so have nothing to compare it to other than what's in the SB3).

[JonW]

We've discussed this a couple times.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...hlight=Emotiva

I remember that thread. Just trying to decide between the various options. The Yamaha would be cheaper than the Emotiva. And about the same price as the French 6 channel volume control, but with more functionality if it were to be used for something else later. Sound quality differences? Not sure. After Thomas suggested the Emotiva I did some reading around the web and found enough complaints to give me pause. Although you know what they say about what you read on the web...

[chasw98]

Are most of you folks satisfied with the performance of the built-in DAC inside the Behringer? (I don't own a high performance stand alone DAC, so have nothing to compare it to other than what's in the SB3).

As far as I have read, the DAC that is inside the 2496 is quite good (Very close to a Benchmark). Most people complain about the analog circuits that are outside of the DAC and that is what they tend to mod. I have used my 2496 with digital in (using a transformer for proper matching) and then listened to the regular output of the 2496 against the 'modded' version of the output. The modded version is slightly better but it will cost about $100 to do the mod right. I would use it as is and enjoy it.

[ThomasW]

After Thomas suggested the Emotiva I did some reading around the web and found enough complaints to give me pause. Although you know what they say about what you read on the web...

Would you point me towards those?

[Jim Holtz]

Would you point me towards those?

Hi Thomas,

I'm not Jon but I've also been following the issues with the LMC-1 pre/pro. Here is a very extensive thread that is probably the best list of the issues with it. http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?t=19727 Read the list of issues compiled by Gonk for a summary.

In spite of the issues with the LMC-1 the MMC-1 and DMC-1 seem to be rock solid and IMHO are based on a far superior processor with the Motorola Symphony DSP. The LMC-1 uses the usual Crystal chip used in most of the less expensive pre/pros and receivers.

I can't say enough good things about the LPA-1 amp, however. Killer sound quality at a bargain price and built like a rock. IMHO, it's one of the very rare audio bargains. :T

HTH

Jim

[chasw98]

From soundstageav

"Everything was going so well. Then, one night we put on a Region 3 copy of House of Flying Daggers (it had not yet been released in the US). Zhang Yimou (Raise the Red Lantern, Shanghai Triad) is one of our favorite directors, and this promised to be one of his most lovely films. Everything went fine up though the "Dance of Echoes" chapter. Then the sound started unexpectedly dropping out. After replacing the DMC-1 with the Bel Canto (an hour of arduous work, thank you), with which everything worked just fine, I determined that the problem was the DMC-1.

As usual when I’m reviewing a component, I called tech support and didn’t identify myself -- just gave an outline of the problem and asked for help. AV123 was chagrined but had no explanation. They asked for time to see if they could re-create the problem, assuming it had to do with the use of a Region 3 disc. Eventually I had to tell them who I was, and they promised to get right back to me. Ten days later, I still hadn’t heard back, so I called and sent an e-mail. By this time, the DMC-1’s power switch had also stopped working. After using the DMC-1 extensively with a number of components, it turned out that the dropouts occurred only with the Ayre DX-7 DVD transport. The Ayre had no problem with other processors, so obviously there is some interface problem between the Emotiva and the Ayre. And the power switch still didn’t work. After several e-mails back and forth, AV123 finally got me a new Emotiva DMC-1. From notification of problem to delivery took six weeks. That’s too long.

The new DMC-1 has operated without problem."

This is one I ran across with a quick search.

[Coby]

So....what's the current favorite for doing attenuation out of the DCX's for say, a 22 channel remotely controlled unit?

Would I need to roll my own?

[Kal Rubinson]

Does anyone here have any comments on using the now discontinued Sony TAP as a 6-channel gain control, between a Behringer DCX2496 and power amps?

Excuse the snide tone, but, if you are dealing with multiple A/D/A conversions, the TA-P9000ES will be a transparent addition to the system.

Kal (and you can't have mine)

[chasw98]

Kal (and you can't have mine)

I had a feeling you would show up and 'YES' I want yours! or one like it, maybe even the McCormack model.

[JonW]

Would you point me towards those?

Looks like Jim’s thread is more informative. (Thanks Jim). And Chuck's info. There is also this monster thread on avs:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=684325&highlight=problem

Some of the mentioned troubles, buried in that thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7786543&highlight=problem#post7786543

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7921802&highlight=problem#post7921802

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7914986&highlight=problem#post7914986

Not damning, but enough reported problems like hiss to give me pause. I haven't decided what to buy (or make) yet.

[Jim Holtz]

From soundstageav

"Everything was going so well. Then, one night we put on a Region 3 copy of House of Flying Daggers (it had not yet been released in the US). Zhang Yimou (Raise the Red Lantern, Shanghai Triad) is one of our favorite directors, and this promised to be one of his most lovely films. Everything went fine up though the "Dance of Echoes" chapter. Then the sound started unexpectedly dropping out. After replacing the DMC-1 with the Bel Canto (an hour of arduous work, thank you), with which everything worked just fine, I determined that the problem was the DMC-1.

As usual when I’m reviewing a component, I called tech support and didn’t identify myself -- just gave an outline of the problem and asked for help. AV123 was chagrined but had no explanation. They asked for time to see if they could re-create the problem, assuming it had to do with the use of a Region 3 disc. Eventually I had to tell them who I was, and they promised to get right back to me. Ten days later, I still hadn’t heard back, so I called and sent an e-mail. By this time, the DMC-1’s power switch had also stopped working. After using the DMC-1 extensively with a number of components, it turned out that the dropouts occurred only with the Ayre DX-7 DVD transport. The Ayre had no problem with other processors, so obviously there is some interface problem between the Emotiva and the Ayre. And the power switch still didn’t work. After several e-mails back and forth, AV123 finally got me a new Emotiva DMC-1. From notification of problem to delivery took six weeks. That’s too long.

The new DMC-1 has operated without problem."

This is one I ran across with a quick search.

Hi Chuck,

I believe that article is from a time period that AV123 was marketing and providing support for Emotiva products. It could also be the reson that Emotiva now sells direct and provides their own support.

My experience has been to have my call answered on the 1st or 2nd ring and I'm speaking with Cathy, Lonnie, Robert or Dan. Not to shabby in my opinion. Also, from what I can tell, they're addressing any defective issue immediately and trying to resolve the LMC-1 problems as quickly as possible.

If I were buying a pre/pro, I'd go for a MMC-1 based on what I've read. With a 30 day money back guarantee and a 40% discount on a pre/pro upgrade, how can you go wrong? :W

My $.02 worth...

Jim

[chasw98]

Jim:
I found that article doing a quick search. My only personal experience is with an acquaintance who owns one of their multi channels amps on the west coast of Florida and he is very happy with it. I believe a lot of the problems stem from interfacing with Chinese manufacturing and getting them built according to the way they were designed. My company has that problem when we come up with new designs and it takes a while for them (the Chinese) to get it exactly the way it should be. And our products are nowhere near as complex as a piece of sophisticated electronics. I am not sure I would buy one today but, like you said, they are a h*ll of a bargain right now with the upgrade offer and they seem to be having less QC problems.

[johnvb]

Excuse the snide tone, but, if you are dealing with multiple A/D/A conversions, the TA-P9000ES will be a transparent addition to the system.

Kal (and you can't have mine)

Hey Kal. I'll just be using a Slim Devices Squeezebox plus Monarchy DIP (via digital) into the DCX, so it will just be D to A.

But yes, I get your drift. The fellow who told me it wouldn't work may have had a much more resolving system then I. Should work fine for me.

[Kal Rubinson]

Hey Kal. I'll just be using a Slim Devices Squeezebox plus Monarchy DIP (via digital) into the DCX, so it will just be D to A.

Umm. OK. Where does the all analog Sony fit in that chain?

Kal

[Dennis H]

Umm. OK. Where does the all analog Sony fit in that chain?

Kal

I think it goes after the DCX for volume control so you can keep full digital resolution in the DCX.

[johnvb]

Umm. OK. Where does the all analog Sony fit in that chain?

Kal

Between the DCX and the power amps.

[chasw98]

Umm. OK. Where does the all analog Sony fit in that chain?

Kal

The DCX can get very ugly if the gain structure is altered and used as a volume control. It is best to use a 6 channel device after the outputs of the 2496 to control level to the power amps. Like everyone else said!

Hence the reason for a 6 channel remote volume control.

[Jim Holtz]

Jim:
I found that article doing a quick search. My only personal experience is with an acquaintance who owns one of their multi channels amps on the west coast of Florida and he is very happy with it. I believe a lot of the problems stem from interfacing with Chinese manufacturing and getting them built according to the way they were designed. My company has that problem when we come up with new designs and it takes a while for them (the Chinese) to get it exactly the way it should be. And our products are nowhere near as complex as a piece of sophisticated electronics. I am not sure I would buy one today but, like you said, they are a h*ll of a bargain right now with the upgrade offer and they seem to be having less QC problems.

Hi Chuck,

I just thought I'd throw in an alternate experience. The LMC-1 IMHO, isn't quite ready for market yet but the rest seem to be rock solid. BTW, Emotiva is just the retail front for a very large OEM electronics manufacturer that builds electronics for a number of "well known" companies. Dan Laughman (SP), the president of Emotiva is the owner of the factory in China. They have about 700 employees. If they screwed up it's their own fault since they also own the manufacturing end too.

Anyway, I'm really impressed with the sound quality of the LPA-1. It's crystal clear but very smooth sounding. Great bass too!

Jim

[chasw98]

Hi Chuck,

Anyway, I'm really impressed with the sound quality of the LPA-1. It's crystal clear but very smooth sounding. Great bass too!

Jim

Well Jim, that settles it! We just have to meet in the middle of the country one weekend and torture test it to see how well it works and sounds, say, somewhere like....... Hawaii! :T :B

[Jim Holtz]

Well Jim, that settles it! We just have to meet in the middle of the country one weekend and torture test it to see how well it works and sounds, say, somewhere like....... Hawaii! :T :B

Ha! Everyone goes to Florida, Arizona or California for vacation. So where do Floridians go? I think they should come to Iowa! Ya, that's the ticket.

Come on up!

Jim

[JoshK]

As far as I have read, the DAC that is inside the 2496 is quite good (Very close to a Benchmark). Most people complain about the analog circuits that are outside of the DAC and that is what they tend to mod. I have used my 2496 with digital in (using a transformer for proper matching) and then listened to the regular output of the 2496 against the 'modded' version of the output. The modded version is slightly better but it will cost about $100 to do the mod right. I would use it as is and enjoy it.

From what I've read and learned, this seems to be true. The DACs aren't the bottleneck, the tons of 'lytics in the signal path and other analog atrocities are. Doing some mods to it could very probably improve the performance. I know these are contentious issues, I'll leave it to you to decide.

[JoshK]

P.S. I own the LMC-1. I guess I am not enough of a HT buff (I am not even using MCH with it) but I haven't found any issue with it at all. It sounds as good as a DAC/preamp as my DEQX.

[Davey]

I have a plot somewhere of the channel tracking between the six sections of the pot on my TA-P9000ES. (I'll have to see if I can find it.)

There's a good deal of variation between the sections....especially at the CCW end of the rotation range.....which, unfortunately (because the amplifier section has about 20db gain) is where the control would be most of the time. This will yield a sort of "hair-trigger" operation in many cases. Not optimum.

The DCX has plenty of output voltage already to drive any power amplifier to rated output so a six-channel control between it and power amps needs attenuation only. Of course, some fixed attenuators could be inserted between the DCX outputs and the Sony inputs.

Mine is collecting dust also.

Davey.

[johnvb]

Hey Davey. I talked to you over at the MUG about this. And now I remember you mentioning the 20 db of extra gain that I wouldn't "need".

So there isn't a way to adjust the output of each channel of the DCX, to reduce the gain into the TAP? Is it a 4 dBu to 10dBV issue?

[Davey]

Hey John,

Yep, this is related to the +4dBu/-10dBV difference. That's 12db a difference in voltage level, which is considerable.

The only adjustment the DCX has for output levels is the 0-15db "slider" on each output. However, this adjustment is done in the digital domain so it doesn't address the problem that some folks have with "throwing away bits and dropping resolution." (A valid concern IMHO.)

As I've mentioned before, when using the DCX to drive unbalanced inputs any XLR/RCA adapters should have the pin 1-3 connection broken so the DCX won't "re-program" itself for 6db higher gain. That helps out some, and is usually a sufficient solution if there is just an attenuator following for the master control. However, when your preamp has 20db gain you've taken one step forward and two steps back.

The DCX can modified internally to lower the output voltage even more. Some of the DCX modders who don't like op-amps have removed/replaced the output section which results in output levels more in line with consumer equipment.

The Sony unit could also be modified to bypass the 20db gain section. However, then you're just left with a REALLY fancy 6-gang, motorized-volume-control-passive-preamp. The problem with accurate tracking of the six sections of the control still remains, but it's probably improved since the nominal settings will be in a much better part of the control.

Since you already have a DCX and Sony unit I would give it a try. If you use XLR/RCA adapters then modify them as I noted above and, possibly, install an attenuator network inside each adapter. That should give you a workable solution with no fiddling internally of either the DCX or Sony. If your power amps have lowish voltage gain and your speakers are fairly inefficient (which I think they are) so much the better.

Cheers,

Davey.

[Kal Rubinson]

The Sony unit could also be modified to bypass the 20db gain section. However, then you're just left with a REALLY fancy 6-gang, motorized-volume-control-passive-preamp. The problem with accurate tracking of the six sections of the control still remains, but it's probably improved since the nominal settings will be in a much better part of the control.

A better DIY solution would be to assemble your own multichannel remote-controllable attenuator using modules from

http://www.welbornelabs.com/modsandmodules.htm

Kal

[JoshK]

Kal, it adds up fast, but it is a nice solution. Twistedpear audio has a similar kit, which can also be run in parrallel for multichannel operation. Somewhat similar pricing iirc.

[Davey]

A better DIY solution would be to assemble your own multichannel remote-controllable attenuator using modules from

http://www.welbornelabs.com/modsandmodules.htm

Kal

No thanks. I've already assembled a DIY solution with better performance than that and cheaper. (That's another topic and old news for me.)

I am trying to address John's questions about the Sony unit in particular since that what he has.

Cheers,

Davey.

[Kal Rubinson]

No thanks. I've already assembled a DIY solution with better performance than that and cheaper. (That's another topic and old news for me.)

Info or link, please?

Kal

[JoshK]

I used to have the link to Davey's project...he used VCA's iirc, from BB or AD. Simple, cheap and effective way of doing it. Ultimate, sonic solution? I don't know, didn't try.

[Dennis H]

Looks like Dave's VCA project link is still good.

http://home.comcast.net/~dreite/preamp/volume_control.htm

[JoshK]

good, my memory isn't completely shot....

[Davey]

Hehe, Dennis' memory is better than mine. I had to remind myself of the link.

That unit was a prototype that worked really well. I built a follow-on unit that was laid out much better, had a simpler control voltage generator, and a very simple remote control. As usual with many of my projects, it was horribly documented. I can't take credit for the design though. It was based on one of the many excellent Denis Colin projects in AudioXpress.

There are numerous DIY projects with a similar concept. Some use VCA's, some using digital potentiometers, some with motorized stepped-attenuators, etc, etc.

Cheers,

Davey.

[johnvb]

Hey John,

Yep, this is related to the +4dBu/-10dBV difference. That's 12db a difference in voltage level, which is considerable.
Davey.

Thanks for all the great info Davey. If using the gain adjustments in the DCX is "throwing away bits and dropping resolution", that pretty much defeats the purpose of the whole exercise. I done the voltage divider thing inside adapters before, when using an older Behringer EQ, worked fine.

Actually I haven’t picked up a DCX yet. I’m moving my MMGs into their own room/system, and going for a “Maggie Project” ala similar to what Thomas posted. Working out whether I want to go all digital to the x-over or not, the hybrid active/passive crossover route or all active x-over, etc, etc.

I’m probably “not worthy” of posting here, :B my diy skills go as far as making my own cables and adding input trannies to my amps.
Hopefully, I should be able to handle thowing together a modded MMG passive x-over, if need be.

[Davey]

"Not worthy?" Nah. Everybody starts somewhere and none of us ever finish. DIY is good fun and a learning experience. It's a bit of sanity in a crazy industry.

The "Maggie Project" is a superior system implementation IMHO and should give an excellent result.

Davey.

[Kal Rubinson]

Hehe, Dennis' memory is better than mine. I had to remind myself of the link.

That unit was a prototype that worked really well. I built a follow-on unit that was laid out much better, had a simpler control voltage generator, and a very simple remote control. As usual with many of my projects, it was horribly documented. I can't take credit for the design though. It was based on one of the many excellent Denis Colin projects in AudioXpress.

There are numerous DIY projects with a similar concept. Some use VCA's, some using digital potentiometers, some with motorized stepped-attenuators, etc, etc.

Cheers,

Davey.

Nice. Some time back, I thought about doing something similar but I've long past the time when I do any PCB work or, in fact, any DIY at that level. My last home-brew, a DAC, sits in the closet as a monument (and backup).

Thanks. I am stuck with ready-made and prefab, these days but I like to see the ideas anyway.

Kal