Modula MT/Natalie P vs. AV123 x-series

[JCByrd24]

I'll be upgrading from my college speakers (Sonys) fairly soon. I'll be doing a DIY sub using the 15" Dayton Hifi in a 7.5cuft vented enclosure tuned to 15Hz. For speakers most recently I've considered SVS SBS-01s and AV123.com x-series, leaning towards the av123 because I could get three of the MTMs for the LCR for cheaper than the SVS. These will be for 70% HT, 15% gaming, 15% music. Music may creap up with nicer speakers.

http://www.av123.com/products_category_brand.php?section=speakers&brand=55

As my post count indicates, I've just recently considered DIY, more important the Natalie P and Modula MT. DIY on my sub will save hundreds compared to a commercially available unit and I'm wondering how the cost comparison works here. It appears these speakers will cost around or slightly more than the options mentioned above so there is no real savings. The real motivation is apparently getting a speaker worth more than what you put in to it. My time for hobbies is free of course. Based on the seemingly endless reading I've done, the answer is yes, these speakers are worth maybe twice their cost or more, and therefore are significantly better than the $500 front sets I've mentioned. Would anyone argue.

I'll be running the equipment listed in my sig and if given that if you think it wouldn't be worth building this level of speaker please let me know.

Also, I've read I think entirely both the Natalie and Modula MT threads and I haven't seen an outright pros/cons listings between the two. They are obviously very similar and the Natalie is slightly more in price. Is that it? Are there certain situations where I should chose one over the other, etc. Please advise.

Thanks.

[ThomasW]

Don't know anything about the AV123 speakers. One would ordinarily compare the NatP against much more expensive speakers.

We believe in using different crossover designs for the mains vs the center. Doing that allows them to be optimized for each application/orientaion.

If you have the budget and the space I would recommend the NatP over the Modual MT simply because it will play louder.

[joecarrow]

I'm not familiar with AV123, but I'm fairly confident that the Natalie Portmans will have superior bass and lower overall distortion. The reason you want good bass from your main speakers is so that you can have more freedom over the crossover frequency to your subwoofer, preventing it from playing in a range that it shouldn't. This keeps you from being able to tell where the sub is, and keeps a better stereo image.

I think most of us would agree that the Nat P's are well worth the cost of parts and materials- but it's hard to put an exact worth on them. Double the cost of materials? Quite possibly. If you enjoy building speakers, definitely build one of these. You definitely won't regret it when you hear them.

On the other hand, go have a listen to as many commercial speakers as you can, in as many different stores as you can. I was actually downright surprised at the sound and value from some of the speakers that are out there commercially lately. The Newton series from Cambridge Soundworks in particular gave my Modula MTs a run for their money. The cost of the Newtons at Modula MT performance levels was only slightly more than the cost of the Modula MTs with Parts Express boxes.

Your receiver seems to claim that it will handle the low impedance of an MTM speaker. If you build the Natalie Portmans and the sub you've described, you'll definitely want to upgrade your receiver. You can keep it and it will be OK, but you'll notice a very nice difference when you get a better one.

Pros for Natalie P- it plays louder, maybe a touch cleaner, and the MTM design limits vertical dispersion and reduces how much sound bounces off the floor and ceiling.

Cons for Natalie P- low impedance wants a good amp, can't be turned on its side to act as a center.

Pros for Modula MT- smaller, 6 ohm load can be driven by most any amp, probably more consistent sound from sitting to standing position

Cons for Modula MT- only one choice of tweeter (actually seas H1189 or H1212 will work, but same goes for the seas choice on Nat P), doesn't play quite as loud.

If you have a large room and you like it loud, the Nat P wins. If you have a small room and space in an issue, or if you have stadium style seating (don't laugh, we did this in more than one tiny dorm room), and can't afford/don't have a receiver that will do 4 ohms, then the Modula MT is better.

[Jim Holtz]

On the other hand, go have a listen to as many commercial speakers as you can, in as many different stores as you can. I was actually downright surprised at the sound and value from some of the speakers that are out there commercially lately. The Newton series from Cambridge Soundworks in particular gave my Modula MTs a run for their money. The cost of the Newtons at Modula MT performance levels was only slightly more than the cost of the Modula MTs with Parts Express boxes.

Hi Joe,

I'm curious what electronics you used to compare your Modulas to the Cambridge speakers? I've not heard Cambridge speakers but in looking at the specs, it doesn't add up. I looked online at the M80's for $499. They have poly cone drivers and each speaker weighs 28 lbs. That sounds like the usual commercial flat packed cabinets and cheap high distortion drivers from the description.

The Modulas are high enough resolution that they quickly let you hear less than great electronics. Please don't misunderstand my post. I just know how good they can sound with a good front end. If they don't sound darn good, something is wrong.

Jim

[WillyD]

Cons for Modula MT- only one choice of tweeter (actually seas H1189 or H1212 will work, but same goes for the seas choice on Nat P), doesn't play quite as loud.

Eh? One can use the RS28 or either Seas, so there isn't only one choice.

And to the OP, if you have the motivation to build, DO IT. I have the X-LS and while they are absolutely fine for the $$ as far as commercial speakers are concerned, the designs here are leaps and bounds above.

[joecarrow]

It's probably not the most objective comparison. I don't know precisely what was driving the Cambridge Soundworks, but I use the Panasonic SA-XR55 to drive my Modula MTs. I could do better than that, I know, but it's definitely not bad.

The Cambridge Soundworks M80 didn't have quite the same level of detail as the Modula MTs, but they also seemed to be slightly easier to listen to. Basically, I was surprised that they were so close in sound.

Maybe I just haven't been around enough elite speakers to know the difference, but I do know the sound of live instruments. Neither the Modula MT or the M80 have ever really delivered that for me. It may be that I've never heard either one in a good listening room with good placement, but the illusion just isn't there.

I heard the Newton T500 with all the hardware the Cambridge Soundworks store could throw at it, as well as what I considered good placement in a quiet and partially treated showroom, and the illusion was just barely there. I could close my eyes and plausibly imagine that I was listening to acoustic instruments. Who knows? Maybe if I lived in a building where I didn't have to have my Modula MTs jammed practically against a wall in a corner, and perhaps upgraded the amp to a beefy class AB, then maybe the illusion would be there.

I don't believe I could really do any better than the Modula MTs with such poor placement. I also believe that I could tell a difference between the Cambridge Soundworks M80 in the store and my Modula MT at home. That's definitely not very scientific of me, and I can admit that.

[joecarrow]

Eh? One can use the RS28 or either Seas, so there isn't only one choice.

And to the OP, if you have the motivation to build, DO IT. I have the X-LS and while they are absolutely fine for the $$ as far as commercial speakers are concerned, the designs here are leaps and bounds above.

Sorry, I didn't think there was an RS28a version of the Modula MT. My bad.

[Jim Holtz]

It's probably not the most objective comparison. I don't know precisely what was driving the Cambridge Soundworks, but I use the Panasonic SA-XR55 to drive my Modula MTs. I could do better than that, I know, but it's definitely not bad.

The Cambridge Soundworks M80 didn't have quite the same level of detail as the Modula MTs, but they also seemed to be slightly easier to listen to. Basically, I was surprised that they were so close in sound.

Maybe I just haven't been around enough elite speakers to know the difference, but I do know the sound of live instruments. Neither the Modula MT or the M80 have ever really delivered that for me. It may be that I've never heard either one in a good listening room with good placement, but the illusion just isn't there.

I heard the Newton T500 with all the hardware the Cambridge Soundworks store could throw at it, as well as what I considered good placement in a quiet and partially treated showroom, and the illusion was just barely there. I could close my eyes and plausibly imagine that I was listening to acoustic instruments. Who knows? Maybe if I lived in a building where I didn't have to have my Modula MTs jammed practically against a wall in a corner, and perhaps upgraded the amp to a beefy class AB, then maybe the illusion would be there.

I don't believe I could really do any better than the Modula MTs with such poor placement. I also believe that I could tell a difference between the Cambridge Soundworks M80 in the store and my Modula MT at home. That's definitely not very scientific of me, and I can admit that.

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the thoughtful answer. I hoped my post wouldn't come across wrong. It sounds as if you have listening room issues. I've not heard the Panny but have read favorable comments about it. Placement is always an issue and dramatically impacts sound quality.

I think you'd be quite amazed at how good the Modulas are in a good room with some nice electronics driving them. I don't want to imply they're the last word by any means, but they are very good and compare to speakers several times the cost of building them, IMHO. In the proper setting, the differences between the Modulas and less expensive commercial speakers is not subtle.

Best regards,

Jim

[WillyD]

I also use the XR-55 but it seems as though the MTs provide a more pleasing sound to me than what Joe experiences? My placement options are a bit better, so maybe that is it.

[joecarrow]

Here's how I've been forced to set things up:



My loving girlfriend refused to lay out our living room in the way that was obviously intended by the architect, and she felt very strongly about it. She was initially against speakers as large as the Modulas, so I felt that it was a good compromise. Lay out this particular apartment non-optimally, then try to do something a bit better when we move to someplace more spacious.

The panasonic is quite good. I had the opportunity to compare it to a Hafler DH500, and the I voluntarily gave up the Hafler afterwards. The DH500 definitely had better impact, and possibly a touch more clarity, but the difference just wasn't enough to justify the bulk and inconvenience. Cohabitation changes you, you know? I've actually come to appreciate the convenience of an all-in-one receiver of this type combined with a universal remote.

[WillyD]

Well no wonder! That is pretty unfortunate placement man. Tough.

[Jim Holtz]

Here's how I've been forced to set things up:

Joe,

There's good and bad news. The bad news is, the placement is killing the sound quality. The good news is, they'll sound like completely different speakers when you get to a house/apartment that will allow you to set them up correctly. You have another thing to look forward to.

Yes, I've been married most of my adult life and I do understand SAF/WAF. At some point, you'll probably have a place big enough to have a "man cave". Then you'll have lots of fun.

Jim

[cgr]

I've built a pair of the Modula MT's(and have another pair in progress). I've also built one of CJD's RS150 mtm as a center channel.(you should also consider this speaker; it's more efficient than the Modula MT and very close in price. CJD's cabinet is also 2.5" narrower than the Modula MT)

I also have a pair of the AV123 XLS. I only played them side by side when I was first putting the Modulas together.(the XLS are in another room with my old sony prologic receiver.) I'm happy with the sound out of all of them; my father says that he can hear the differences with the Modula MT with his classical music. (I'm also driving the Modula MT with a Panny XR55)

Do you already have access to the tools that you need to build these? If not I don't know whether or not you will save any money building them.

The XLS is a lot of speaker for the money, and you can send them back if you don't like them. Where are you located? There might be someone who has built the speakers that you're interested in that would let you hear them.

[JCByrd24]

Guys, thanks for all of the responses. A little more information from my end.

1. I didn't realize the Natalie P was a 4 ohm speaker. The total impedence curve shown in post 1 in the thread is above 4 for the most part and so I was assuming it was closer to 6, or should I be looking at the generator curve? In any event, my receiver won't like a 4 ohm center, only mains. I'm assuming the RS150 MTM would be a good match as a center and even work horizontally, it also appears 6 ohm (or higher) impedence which the receiver would like.

2. There seems to be value in having identical LCR across the fronts, oriented properly of course. I was planning on using 3 of whatever I decide on, realizing the Nats will be vertical even in the center spot (directly to the side of the plasma). This doesn't seem to be an option now based on the receiver. The RS 150 MTMs appear to have less bass response, rolling off at 200Hz so I don't think I want to go with 3 of those. Am I missing something in reading the graph on Chris' page?

3. Yes, I have the tools and the motivation to build, hence the sub. Its just that in this case (more money for the DIY), the decision is not quite as clear. Though after the responses here I've pretty much decided I'm building something.

4. I've been very happy with my Yamaha, though it is 4ish years old now. When buying my understanding was it was on par with Onkyo, and the low end Denon and HK. It is a high current amp, for what its worth. I didn't think it was the bottom of the barrel. Will the Panny mentioned in this thread really be an upgrade, or are we talking bigger bucks than that? Looking for an idea of what you guys are talking about in this arena. I just don't know if I can justify another receiver with "the boss", I will already be replacing equipment that I have, which doesn't make sense her.

Again, thanks for all the help.

[Jim Holtz]

Guys, thanks for all of the responses. A little more information from my end.

1. I didn't realize the Natalie P was a 4 ohm speaker. The total impedence curve shown in post 1 in the thread is above 4 for the most part and so I was assuming it was closer to 6, or should I be looking at the generator curve? In any event, my receiver won't like a 4 ohm center, only mains. I'm assuming the RS150 MTM would be a good match as a center and even work horizontally, it also appears 6 ohm (or higher) impedence which the receiver would like.

2. There seems to be value in having identical LCR across the fronts, oriented properly of course. I was planning on using 3 of whatever I decide on, realizing the Nats will be vertical even in the center spot (directly to the side of the plasma). This doesn't seem to be an option now based on the receiver. The RS 150 MTMs appear to have less bass response, rolling off at 200Hz so I don't think I want to go with 3 of those. Am I missing something in reading the graph on Chris' page?

3. Yes, I have the tools and the motivation to build, hence the sub. Its just that in this case (more money for the DIY), the decision is not quite as clear. Though after the responses here I've pretty much decided I'm building something.

4. I've been very happy with my Yamaha, though it is 4ish years old now. When buying my understanding was it was on par with Onkyo, and the low end Denon and HK. It is a high current amp, for what its worth. I didn't think it was the bottom of the barrel. Will the Panny mentioned in this thread really be an upgrade, or are we talking bigger bucks than that? Looking for an idea of what you guys are talking about in this arena. I just don't know if I can justify another receiver with "the boss", I will already be replacing equipment that I have, which doesn't make sense her.

Again, thanks for all the help.

Good morning!

Some questions. What volumes do you listen? Is this for music or home theater and what combination if both?

A couple thoughts. If your Yamaha doesn't like 4 ohm loads, pass the Natalie P's and the MTM Chris did. The Modulas would be your best "low cost" solution without knowing the answers to the above questions. Another speaker that hasn't been posted yet but sounds like it would be perfect for you is a RS 3-way variation designed by Dennis Murphy with a single RS225 woofer rather than dual RS225. The downside is that it will take more power to hit high volumes. I'm sure sound quality is excellent and a huge step up from the AV123's you were looking at.

HTH

Jim

[cjd]

I've run the RS150 quite hard on a few different amps rated only to 8ohm without any troubles. It runs out of oomph before I've ever run into amp problems. Granted, they've all been amps capable of delivering quite a bit of current on demand. If your receiver is 6ohm rated, it will probably never give you any trouble. But, probably may not be good enough.

C

[dawaro]

Another speaker that hasn't been posted yet but sounds like it would be perfect for you is a RS 3-way variation designed by Dennis Murphy with a single RS225 woofer rather than dual RS225.

That reminds me, I have the RS 3-way details from Dennis that need to be posted. I have been recovering from a tonsillectomy so I have been a little slow lately.

As far as the OP's ohm load concerns I have a question. Does your receiver have pre-outs? If so do you see the possibility of upgrading to a separate amp in the future? If so you could build the Nat P with the idea of upgrading the amplication in the future. It really is a common path, in fact I use a receiver for a pre-amp in my system. While I have not built the Nat P I have built the Modula MT and MTM, both of which were powered by a 6 ohm rated receiver with no problems.

It will be difficult to get an opinion here on the AV123 design here. First off few if any have experience with it and secondly most here are aware of the insuing flame wars that arise when discussing commercial designs. Especially one that uses GR Research drivers...

[joecarrow]

JC, I'd consider the panasonic a minor upgrade. It's really only 40 watts more powerful, but the sound quality is great. When I turn it up all the way and nothing is playing, I put my ear up to the speaker and there's no hum or buzz at all. I don't know how well it would do with an MTM center, but the left and right channels have an option that uses extra unused amp channels in parallel to give better low impedance performance.

You can call it an upgrade, but for movies I think it's a good idea to have more power than you need. I live in an apartment, so volume is limited. If I was in a house where I didn't have to care, and if I had the money, I'd be looking at 200 watts with a lot of current capacity. Of course, my environmentalism might win this fight and make me stay with the panasonic. It uses less electricity since it is more efficient, and its 10 pound weight is very nice. 10 pounds sounds like a cheezy receiver, and the first time I picked it up I thought it was a joke. The first time I plugged it in, I knew it wasn't.

If you do the Modula MT, or Mark K's RS225 2-way, then your present receiver will work fine. Just be aware that you will receive a nice upgrade in sound quality when you trade in your receiver. Say, around christmas? That's a good time of year, if you get any amazon gift certificates and you can distract your significant other with something shiny.

[JCByrd24]

Guys I really appreciate the quick attention here. In any event, my Yamaha will run the 4 ohm Natalie Ps for mains (as it states 4 ohm is fine when running 1 pair of mains in the manual, there is even a switch). In that setting it also allows for 6 ohm centers and surrounds, and the RS150 MTM sounds like that will fit the bill. I'll probably place in front of the TV and go with the partial BSC on the center. I haven't completely decided on the Natalie or Modula MT, but it seems either will be fine.

I'm really miffed by the receiver opinions though. Obviously not high end gear, but always has had plenty of power for my listening. I ran my wedding reception in a 30x80x10 room with it on the main channels and its not a cheap RCA or Sony. It doesn't have preouts so I cannot upgrade to a dedicated amp on this unit, and in the future would like to stay with a single receiver I think...please, someone give me an idea of what would make the natalies shine. I'm not saying I won't consider an upgrade I just don't even know what I should be looking at.

[Ecir38]

See my sig for my setup. Very nice in a smaller form factor than other designs in the mission accomplished section. Also note in the build threads that impedance will be differant depending on the tweeter you go with. I am using a yamaha recever also with no problem as you have discovered in your last post but that is being upgraded very soon . Looks like you are headed in the right direction.

[joecarrow]

JC, I'm not sure if you're quite tuned in to the level of performance possible with these designs. It's not going to sound horrible with your present receiver- it just has the potential to work even better with high end gear.

Sorry I can't be a bit more help on receiver selection- I generally focus more on speaker design since I have an interest in it as a mechanical engineer. Receivers and amps are nice because they make the speakers go, but they're a little bit outside of my core interests. Also, I can't really afford the seriously good stuff.

As far as receiver ideas go, there are lots of non-DIY forums where you can get great help. I don't mean to steer you away from HTguide, but when I was searching for a good receiver I found that AVS forum was a great resource. HT guide is awesome for DIY stuff, but the reality is that a whole lot of people still buy commercial gear instead of DIY, and they talk about it in a wide variety of online forums.

[JCByrd24]

JC, I'm not sure if you're quite tuned in to the level of performance possible with these designs.

Joe, I think you hit the nail on the head here. I'm even less in tuned to the electronics we're talking about (another mechanical engineer here). I've been fairly satisfied with my system for the most part. The sub is boomy and is the first to go, a no brainer to go DIY. The speakers were cheap and are getting beat up, no problems with replacing them either at this point, DIY seems like a great option for me so I'm exploring it. It just seems odd to me to hear several people respond about the receiver (which I've thought was decent) without suggestion of what would be better. Again, without a reference with respect to these speakers I don't even know what ballpark I'm in. Basically, what are decent electronics? How much coin are we talking? I am a member of AVSforums so I can cruise there, but thought info here would be more pertinent. What are the people saying I should upgrade my receiver using? I can't afford (or my wife will have a fit) expensive stuff either, but if another $500 in a couple years will make the Natalie P's shine, then its worth building them now over going commercial. If we're talking 2K its never going to happen so maybe I'll shy away from DIY.

Ecir, I don't see any reference to your electronics in your sig, though I did had previously checked out all of your build threads. Please shed some light.

[Edge540]

I have no experience with Yamaha equipment, so can not comment on it.
If looking at electronics, however, may i suggest taking a look at the Outlaw Audio stuff (www.outlawaudio.com). Fear not in ordering from them. I have their older stuff i.e. 950 Pre and 755 amp powering the Missions Acomplished WWMT and WMTW center. In my opinion, it works nicely.

[Ecir38]

Ecir, I don't see any reference to your electronics in your sig, though I did had previously checked out all of your build threads. Please shed some light.

I understand your budget but once you you build some of the speakers mentioned here you are going to later want to use them to there full potential.

Here is the thread that got me in trouble.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=707173

You should find allot of reveiws of all sorts of AVR's that should fit your your budget in the AMPs, Receivers, and Processors section

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=90

[ThomasW]

We prefer people put equipment lists in their profile as opposed to their signatures. Having equipment lists in people's signatures, causes the forum's search function to find posts with signature lists instead of posts containing useful info about the item searched.

[Ecir38]

I have no experience with Yamaha equipment, so can not comment on it.
If looking at electronics, however, may i suggest taking a look at the Outlaw Audio stuff (www.outlawaudio.com). Fear not in ordering from them. I have their older stuff i.e. 950 Pre and 755 amp powering the Missions Acomplished WWMT and WMTW center. In my opinion, it works nicely.

You should be able to find a used 950 for a good price.

[joecarrow]

It just seems odd to me to hear several people respond about the receiver (which I've thought was decent) without suggestion of what would be better. Again, without a reference with respect to these speakers I don't even know what ballpark I'm in. Basically, what are decent electronics? How much coin are we talking?

Basically, if you had the Modula MT and the AV123 next to each other with your receiver, the Modula would surely sound noticeably better. If your receiver is good for four ohms, and it seems to be, then the Natalie Portman would also sound noticeably better than the AV123. We're not saying that your receiver will make them sound bad, just that the speakers are good enough that they won't be the weak link in the chain anymore.

To get the "maximum" out of these designs, you could spend several thousand dollars on amplification before you'd stop noticing the difference between better equipment. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so- it's just getting closer and closer to reproducing sounds correctly.

On a percentage scale, I'd rate your present receiver around 80%, the panasonic I have at around 85%, a $4k Denon or Marantz at around 95%, and "cost no object" outboard processing and amps as 100%. That's totally a wild guess based on what I know of their signal processing capabilities and quality of amplifiers. I don't have a lot of experience with that type of consumer gear.

In my experience, there's almost always a "sweet spot" when a system's performance is balanced with your budget. For you, I think that you could find a receiver for well under $1,000 that would be "good enough" that whatever the weak link in your system was, it would probably be beyond your control. I think that something with at least 100 watts of solid power, stable to 4 ohms with low distortion and noise, would be sufficient to give you enough to get past a point of diminishing returns. Its not about the extra 30 watts over your present receiver, it's about how well it holds up on the way there.

[Jim Holtz]

Joe, I think you hit the nail on the head here. I'm even less in tuned to the electronics we're talking about (another mechanical engineer here). I've been fairly satisfied with my system for the most part. The sub is boomy and is the first to go, a no brainer to go DIY. The speakers were cheap and are getting beat up, no problems with replacing them either at this point, DIY seems like a great option for me so I'm exploring it. It just seems odd to me to hear several people respond about the receiver (which I've thought was decent) without suggestion of what would be better. Again, without a reference with respect to these speakers I don't even know what ballpark I'm in. Basically, what are decent electronics? How much coin are we talking? I am a member of AVSforums so I can cruise there, but thought info here would be more pertinent. What are the people saying I should upgrade my receiver using? I can't afford (or my wife will have a fit) expensive stuff either, but if another $500 in a couple years will make the Natalie P's shine, then its worth building them now over going commercial. If we're talking 2K its never going to happen so maybe I'll shy away from DIY.

Ecir, I don't see any reference to your electronics in your sig, though I did had previously checked out all of your build threads. Please shed some light.

Joe gave a great response that pretty much says what we've been trying to say, unsuccessfully. The Modulas, Natalie P's, RS 3-ways or any of the other speaker projects will allow you to continue to refine your system and realize better sound quality with each upgrade. Where your satisfied point is, would be up to you. The Modula M/T's and the Natalie P's sound very similar. The Natalie P's are just more efficient. The RS 3-way is a step up in sound quality but it's also more money.

I can't recommend a receiver because I've had separates for many years. I did just buy an Emotiva LPA-1 5 channel amp that is an absolute killer and only $499 delivered. This amp is a real sleeper. Sound quality is superb. It's replacing my Musical Concepts modified Hafler and other amps. The LPA-1 sounds better. Anyway, check out Emotiva. They've had some bugs in their entry level processor but the more expensive ones seem to be solid and all are priced very reasonably. Comparable to receiver pricing but much better sound quality. Good luck with you DIY project. It's very addictive.

HTH

Jim

[joecarrow]

Jim,

I had no idea about the Emotiva. For $500, it seems like a whole lot of amplifier for the dollar- and much easier to bring in under the spousal radar than three stereo amplifiers.

"But honey, I just replaced those three boxes with one box. Surely you won't mind if I add one more box for a net loss of one box!"

It looks cheaper than the ATI amplifier Linkwitz uses with the Orion, and for that reason I'd probably consider this if I ever build something with active crossovers.

I've heard an unmodified Hafler 500, and if the Emotiva is even better than the upgraded Haflers, then it must be sweet indeed. Anyway, it was worth a bookmark.

[ahaik]

If its any indication I own a pair of Paradigm Studio 100 V.2 and build the Modula MT for surround duties. After listening to the Modula MT as mains for a few weeks I switched back to the Paradigm, you should have seen my face, shocked would be the right word to describe it. The Modula MT sounded way better then the paradigm (and I paid $2400 for these). After that I built a pair of Microbes for the bedroom (RS125, RS28) and a center (the Dayton WMTW) and sold my paradigm Studio CC-450 which sounded like a fm radio compared to the Dayton. My brother had built the Modula MTM which sounds way better then his Mirage ($1300).
Well this is my opinion/experience, Hope it helps.
BTW- thank you everyone here for being so generous and sharing your hard work.

Asi.

[JCByrd24]

Guys, I'm starting to see the light. I'm fairly confident that I will be building now. I looked at the Emotiva site and indeed the LPA-1 looks like a steal comparted to even the 2-channel stuff at PE. Here is a final question for the gurus, at least until I build. What are you guys using for processing? I'm talking DD, DTS, etc. I noticed in the $500 range I can buy the Emotiva entry pre/pro, but at that pricepoint you can get a 90-100wpc receiver with the preouts as well, which would lend itself to upgrading slowly rather than jumping in. I assume the first is the superior in SQ though. What's typical....I'll admit, I may be hooked.

On a different note, this is in a living room, not dedicated HT. Will I see deminishing returns because of lack of WAF, I mean ability to go crazy with room treatment, at the quality level we're talking here. What do you guys use for EQ?

Thanks again for all the help...your guys are penetrating my thick skull now.

[Jim Holtz]

Guys, I'm starting to see the light. I'm fairly confident that I will be building now. I looked at the Emotiva site and indeed the LPA-1 looks like a steal comparted to even the 2-channel stuff at PE. Here is a final question for the gurus, at least until I build. What are you guys using for processing? I'm talking DD, DTS, etc. I noticed in the $500 range I can buy the Emotiva entry pre/pro, but at that pricepoint you can get a 90-100wpc receiver with the preouts as well, which would lend itself to upgrading slowly rather than jumping in. I assume the first is the superior in SQ though. What's typical....I'll admit, I may be hooked.

On a different note, this is in a living room, not dedicated HT. Will I see deminishing returns because of lack of WAF, I mean ability to go crazy with room treatment, at the quality level we're talking here. What do you guys use for EQ?

Thanks again for all the help...your guys are penetrating my thick skull now.

Sterting with an inexpensive receiver that has preouts is an option and a path that many on AVS and AV123 forums have followed. Check out the electronics forums and search for Emotiva for lots of reading.

If you're primarily home theater, you'll notice increased clarity, better separation and better effects with a pre/pro vs a receiver. The LPA-1 combined with a receiver preouts is a big step up from the receiver amp. A good pre/pro is another big step up. The Receiver will get you started but they have many compromises because of the design limitations receivers have. There is a difference and it isn't subtle if you have good speakers.

Some other options would be a used pre/pro off Audiogon from Outlaw, Adcom, Rotel etc. There is some very good equipment available used that may not have all of the switching conveniences of a receiver but will have much better sound quality.

HTH

Jim

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Forgive me, this is my first post in about 5 days, so I'm way behind in reading everything and only have time to skim everything I've missed.

But, I've had in my home the SVS SB-01, Ascend 340SE, ModulaMT, and CJD's MTM. All were powered with a Pioneer 1015tx. The DIY designs were clearly better than the Ascends and destroyed the SVS speakers. I'm sure they would also destroy the AV123 speakers.

The SVS and AV123 are decent for the price, but they can't compete with DIY. It is very likely if you don't do a A vs. B comparison, you will enjoy the lesser price speakers. But, if you ever bring something better home, your jaw will drop to the floor with the difference.