Any thoughts on the Hi-Vi f6?

[Guest]

I have been looking for a decent midbass to use in a smallish 2 way TM and have been considering the F6 for a while now but there is very little info on this driver on the web. The response graph looks respectable, fit and finish looks great and the price is reasonable. So far I have read tons of glowing reviews for Swan systems that make use of the f6 but other than that and John K.'s review there is little else. Just wondering if anyone here has used or considered using this driver, any hidden problems ect. or if there is a comparable driver that would be better suited to a small 2way with a minimum of contouring and a fairly simple 4th or dare I say 2nd oder Xover, I would love to here some suggestions, thanks.

[Mudjock]

I've never tried to use the F6, but here is some additional feedback from the ldsg...

http://ldsg.snippets.org/vendors/hivi.php

At its current price of $36, it seems like a pretty safe bet. Other options near that price would be the Dayton RS180 and the Ascendant poly 6.5 (if/when we see it again via Resonant Engineering).

You could go cheaper with the Dayton DA-175 for good extension, but very low sensitivity and a low crossover point - or spend $50+ and look at the usual suspects from Seas or Peerless (or the HiVi D6.8, which is also on special at PE).

[Dennis H]

The huge impedance bobble a bit above 1 kHz and the smaller one around 3 kHz look kinda scary, like some sort of cone resonance or breakup.



Compare to the D6.8 which is a nice driver used by JonMarsh in an old design as well as JonW's Totem Forests that he likes so well.

[JonMarsh]

Suspicious impedance bobbles, I'd be cautious of linear distortion even though it's not apparent on the on axis plot, plus Xmax of only 3.5 mm, 1" VC vs. 3" VC on the D6.8, the D6.8 seems to have a bit greater Sd, also. The D6.8 has a smaller magnet assembly due to a Neodymium motor that's inherently self shielding.

BUT, don't let us stop you necessarily with our preconceived notions, try it out if you're interested. OTOH, I buy lot of drivers I never end up using in systems after testing. The ones I use are the better ones. But it doesn't mean you couldn't do a decent budget system with the F6. When you look at all the work building something takes, especially if you don your own crossover from scratch, saving 40% on the midwoofers may not turn out to be much of a bargain, in the bigger picture.

[Mazeroth]

ShawnA from the PE boards brought an F6 + XT19 combo to the DiY Dayton 2006 event. They sounded good, but nothing really special. He did say it was his first crossover implementation so that may have something to do with their sound.

Sorry, but that's alls I's gots! :B

[PatG]

Hmmm, thats a shame...that little ripple in the impedance has always worried me. I don't mind spending a little more on the drivers considering the labor that goes into these things I just don't want to spend a fortune on some finicky, prima donna drivers that need 20 elements in each xover to get things sounding right, guess I'll expand my search, thanks for the feedback.

[JonMarsh]

The D6.8 is not a metal cone driver requiring a complex crossover- in that regard, it's quite easy to use. Other types to look at might be some of the Seas Paper cone units.

I like the D6.8 because of it's dynamic bottom end and extension in moderate size enclosures, and the ease of making a relatively low component count crossover. It has above average power handling, due to the large voice coil (3" in diameter!) and is the only "Dynaudio Klone" that works fairly well at a reasonable price.

[TacoD]

Seas Paper, very easy to work with and nice sounding! (I used the CA18RNX with the 27TDC as 2-way and 2.5-way)

[PatG]

I have heard a few unfavorable comments about some of the SEAS paper woofers, distortion issues I believe but like anything, you need to take it with a grain of salt. The D6.8 looks like a great driver, PE's response graphs show a beefy peak around 1K, did you find this same peak while using this driver Jon? Also with such a high QTS I'm suprised to see it used in a vented enclosure, I have had my heart set on an aperiodic enclosure but most of the drivers I have been looking at have very low QTS's, maybe this driver is the ticket.

[JonMarsh]

In my case I've used it in a two way and am presently using it in a three way. I didn't get the same FR response as posted in the HiVi spec sheet.

The trick to using the HiVi vented is the size of the enclosure and tuning to a relatively low frequency for an Fb that's 6 dB down from the midbass/midrange level. You get a nice smooth down slope from 100 Hz to 30 Hz, (- 6dB point), and that works very well in room with boundary reinforcement from floor and rear wall. I just bought some more because PE has them on sale; I'm using them with RS54 on mids, crossover around 900 Hz (looking for some serious power handling).

This driver works well in a sealed or aperiodic design, also- IMO, it's quite flexible.

[John Bartas]

Hi - I've been lurking here for a while - time to post.

The F6 looks attractive to me too, especially as I'm looking to build an MTM. Further, I'd like to try crossing over somewhat higher than usual - about 3KHz - to a ribbon tweeter like the $83 Fountek. I've seen Zaph audio's distortion graph, and F6 looks a little rough in the 2-3K range - but I'm not sure how this will translate to real-world listening.

Has anyone actually heard the F6 play in that critical range?

Cheers, -JB-

[ThomasW]

As Jon posted above 3.5mm of Xmax and a 1" VC (that's what 25mm tweeters have) make the F6 a non-starter.

And FWIW, the impedance plot is horrible.....

If you're going to pop for a real ribbon tweeter, use woofers of the same quality....

[JonMarsh]

Hi - I've been lurking here for a while - time to post.

The F6 looks attractive to me too, especially as I'm looking to build an MTM. Further, I'd like to try crossing over somewhat higher than usual - about 3KHz - to a ribbon tweeter like the $83 Fountek. I've seen Zaph audio's distortion graph, and F6 looks a little rough in the 2-3K range - but I'm not sure how this will translate to real-world listening.

Has anyone actually heard the F6 play in that critical range?

Cheers, -JB-

CTC gets a bit wide for a 3 kHz crossover in an MTM.

Honestly, if I was dead set on going that route with a Ribbon, I'd go with the XT18 Vifa, but biamp them to some kind of woofer array. Or maybe a Seas P18RNXP.

Bobbles in the impedance curve like the F6 has correlate with some kind of mechanical resonance (most often in the cone, sometimes in the surround).

The spectral decay John Krutke measured on the F6 just isn't indicative of a driver I'd want to use high up...



(see the big ridges at 3 and 4 kHz?)

[John Bartas]

Thanks for the insight - I think I'll pass on the F6.

I've previously looked into both the Vifa XT and the Seas P18RNX/P and have a couple of questions.....

Why the Vifa XT18 over the XG18? They spec out very similar, and the XG is cheaper.
On WinISD both vifas want a bigger box than I had in mind - about 2 cu.ft. for two drivers. If I ever build this speaker I want to bring it in from the garage, so SAF is an issue. I can hide a sub in the room to use with these, but Jons array of woofers idea won't fly (My line arrays almost got me divorced :twisted: ).

The P18RNX/P looks a like a darn near ideal driver. When I first looked at it, Madisound didn't have complete specs; but now those numbers are up and they look great. (x-max of 6mm). My only concern is that I"ve never been happy with the sound of poly cones. My office system uses Seas P17REs, and they just don't have the detail of a good metal, paper, or fiberglass cone. I've used Peerless and Vifa Poly middle-line drivers, and noticed the same issue. They just don't have the articulation to pair with a ribbon.

Should I expect the P18RNX/P to be any better than the old P17RE?

[PatG]

It has been my impression that both the XT and XG18s produce considerable distortion when reproducing the lower octaves but are otherwise very good if crossed over as mids(albeit very large mids). I have also been considering the poly SEAS drivers, the RNX seems to have a good motor design but I'm not a huge fan of polys either, still considering the HIVI D6.8. Hate to add another driver to the fray but how are the glass fiber D6G's? The frequency response seems to have a large peak around 1KHZ or so.

[JonMarsh]

Thanks for the insight - I think I'll pass on the F6.

I've previously looked into both the Vifa XT and the Seas P18RNX/P and have a couple of questions.....

Why the Vifa XT18 over the XG18? They spec out very similar, and the XG is cheaper.
On WinISD both vifas want a bigger box than I had in mind - about 2 cu.ft. for two drivers. If I ever build this speaker I want to bring it in from the garage, so SAF is an issue. I can hide a sub in the room to use with these, but Jons array of woofers idea won't fly (My line arrays almost got me divorced :twisted: ).

The P18RNX/P looks a like a darn near ideal driver. When I first looked at it, Madisound didn't have complete specs; but now those numbers are up and they look great. (x-max of 6mm). My only concern is that I"ve never been happy with the sound of poly cones. My office system uses Seas P17REs, and they just don't have the detail of a good metal, paper, or fiberglass cone. I've used Peerless and Vifa Poly middle-line drivers, and noticed the same issue. They just don't have the articulation to pair with a ribbon.

Should I expect the P18RNX/P to be any better than the old P17RE?

I'm not a fan of the "sound" of poly, either- ditched that back in the late 80's. Of course, if you haven't heard a specific driver, it's just generallizing. Look at what ATC get's for theirs. In a three way I think some are pretty good- but running high in a two way, you'd definitely have to go on a case by case basis. I think the P18RNX/P SHOULD be considerably better than the old P17RE, but there's only one way to knowl... knowledge doesn't come cheap, though not too dear in this case. At $63, it's not too pricey, though certainly more than the F6. Normally I'd be more in favor of the L18RNX/P, though obviously you can't really use it above 2 kHz. That's enough for many conventional tweeters, like a 27TDFC Seas. Ribbon, that's another matter.

[John Bartas]

New thread?

Hate to add another driver to the fray but how are the glass fiber D6G's? The frequency response seems to have a large peak around 1KHZ or so.

Interesting driver. You could look at the
uneven response as a dip around 600, which you might be able to partially offset with a carefully designed baffle. The high drop drops off fast at 2KHx, which would be great for a 2K XO, but is problematic for my 3KHz requirement. All in all it looks like a challenging driver to work with.

I've already got a few other drivers in the fray,including the Peerless Exclusive and (if it ever comes back) the Ascendant Audio Poly 6.5. At $140 for four I'd be willing to gamble on more poly.

This isn't really about the F6 anymore. Would is be presumptuous for a newbie to start a new thread looking for a 6-7" midbass which works up to 3KHz?

-JB-

[Jed]

Has anyone worked with the D5.8 hivi? Response looks ragged based on the manufacture's plots but maybe not in reality? Might be ok for MTMWW as a mid.

Jed

[ThomasW]

Data from the factory website

The D6G looks terrible above ~600Hz..........

http://www.swanspeaker.com/product/htm/view.asp?id=62

The D5.8 is just as bad

http://www.swanspeaker.com/product/htm/view.asp?id=56

[PatG]

Man, I can't believe I'm still looking for a driver (shakes head), I think I may go with the SEAS L15 or L18, they seem to have exceptional power handling and linear excursion which is great for a small 2 way. In general most people appear satisfied with these two drivers, I just don't see a lot of rave comments either. I was also thinking of using a pair of woofers in a 2.5 TMM to deal with BSC and minimize excursion.