Smallest sub enclosures w/ maximum performance??

[Family Guy]

Hello everyone, I came on this board asking a few questions many months back and you all were so helpful. At that point I was just starting the construction of my new Theater. Since then a few things have changed, mainly room size. My current room dimensions are 29x22x10.5. My dilema is I have decorative columns at the mid points of three walls that need to house the subwoofers, there will also be subwoofers located at the mid point of the screen wall also. The columns have internal dimensions of 24w x 12d x up to 75"h. Basically these dimensions will be the external dimensions of the enclosure that will fit within these columns.

I was originally thinking 2 15" subs per the 4 locations but my reading has me thinking my internal volume in these columns will not be suffice. So there lies the question, do any of you guys have any proven small enclosure designs that will shake this theater off its foundation. I'm willing to use whatever amps and subwoofers I need to make this work. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Bob

[crackyflipside]

Yeah but you are going to need to spend a lot on amplification and an LT circuit. Not to mention that you will need to get some very high-quality drivers to ensure that you can push the subs to its limits and not encounter too much distortion.

Give us a budget and we can make it work. :T

[Dennis H]

The columns have internal dimensions of 24w x 12d x up to 75"h.

So, you've got about 12 cu.ft. per enclosure. That's plenty to make a pair of almost any 15" driver work in a sealed design with EQ to boost the low end. Depending on your budget, either the Dayton RS or TC Sounds drivers would work fine.

[Family Guy]

Yeah but you are going to need to spend a lot on amplification and an LT circuit. Not to mention that you will need to get some very high-quality drivers to ensure that you can push the subs to its limits and not encounter too much distortion.

Give us a budget and we can make it work. :T

I dont really have a budget for the subwoofers, I just want the performance of a high end commercial sub, unfortunatley I have to be able to fit them into my column design. If I have to put 1 Pro amp per sub I will. I happen to have alot of friends in the A/V business that swear I cannot rival the performance of a commercial sub. So whatever it takes I will do it and get the look I'm after.

Thanks
Bob

[Family Guy]

So, you've got about 12 cu.ft. per enclosure. That's plenty to make a pair of almost any 15" driver work in a sealed design with EQ to boost the low end. Depending on your budget, either the Dayton RS or TC Sounds drivers would work fine.

Thanks Dennis, I have a PE catalog but cant seem to find the overall depth of the RS15's. The dimensions listed above are actually the external measurements. If I was to make the front and rear of the enclosure 1.5" thick I'd loose alot of depth and volume. If my calculations are correct I beleive it will be about 8.6 cu.ft. Does this change anything??

[Dennis H]

If my calculations are correct I beleive it will be about 8.6 cu.ft. Does this change anything??

You can still make either the RS or TC drivers work fine. You will just need more EQ and more amp power with the smaller enclosure. The RS drivers are less expensive but the TC drivers move more air and require more power. Either is a good low-distortion choice so you need to decide how much output you need. If you need the extra output of the TCs, you will have to pay more for the drivers and the amps. Figure double the cost for the drivers + amps to get 6dB (twice) more output at similar distortion levels.

[Family Guy]

I see what you are saying Brian, I was looking around TC's website and they look pretty impressive. What would you recommend for the amplifier duty. I made sure I ran 4 20amp feeds to my equipment closet just for this reason.

[---k---]

100L (3.5 cu ft) is near perfect for a sealed Soundsplinter RL-P15. So, if you have 12 cu ft in each column, like Dennis calculated, you're set. And, if you're willing to put in that many drivers, you'll shouldn't have to worry about having enough output.

I recommend a pair of RL-p15 in each column. Do at least two columns, so 4 total drivers. (8 drivers would be even more special) Buy a Behringer DEQ2496 for your EQ and LT. I think you'll be able to split the signal coming out of the DEQ into 4 parts, if needed. And power each pair of RL-p15 with a single Behringer EP2500 amp.

That should rock. Just make your columns strong. I don't think you'll need to sub-divide them down to 100L. The bigger the better and closer to an IB.

Oh and, I think you're going to want a TC driver (the RL-p15 is made by TC), because I thought I saw recently Thomas say that the RS HF drivers arn't meant to be horizontally mounted.

[Family Guy]

100L (3.5 cu ft) is near perfect for a sealed Soundsplinter RL-P15. So, if you have 12 cu ft in each column, like Dennis calculated, you're set. And, if you're willing to put in that many drivers, you'll shouldn't have to worry about having enough output.

I recommend a pair of RL-p15 in each column. Do at least two columns, so 4 total drivers. (8 drivers would be even more special) Buy a Behringer DEQ2496 for your EQ and LT. I think you'll be able to split the signal coming out of the DEQ into 4 parts, if needed. And power each pair of RL-p15 with a single Behringer EP2500 amp.

That should rock. Just make your columns strong. I don't think you'll need to sub-divide them down to 100L. The bigger the better and closer to an IB.

Oh and, I think you're going to want a TC driver (the RL-p15 is made by TC), because I thought I saw recently Thomas say that the RS HF drivers arn't meant to be horizontally mounted.

Thanks for the input k, after taking a close look at the TC drivers I noticed they were fairly deep, I might have to make an adjustment on my design to fit these. I'm confused about the RS subs, what does it mean that they cant be mounted horizontally?

On another note since I might have to make an adjustment on my column depth would it be benificial for me to just put 4 18" subs, 1 per column?

Tnanks
Bob

[---k---]

Horizontal mounting means facing the driver upwards or downward. Some drivers can be, others can't (we you can, it just isn't good). I beleive that it depends on how stiff their suspension is.

I was assuming that you were going to have the round columns and the drivers mounted horizontally within them, similar to a sonotube sub. But, I think you've got other plans. How do you plan on constructing the subs?

Whether it is better to have 1 - 18" sub versus 2 - 15" subs comes down the the specific drivers used and your budget. Currently, I think the SoundSplinter RL-p15 is the best value when judged on a Volumn/$$ basis. It is also a really good driver, and therefore frequently recommended. The TC2000 is very similar, but costs a few $$ more. I'm not as familiar with the 18" drivers currently on the market. I beleive there is the Mach18 which is cheeper and not as good. TC has some really expensive 18" drivers, which I'm sure are great if you have the budget.

[Family Guy]

Horizontal mounting means facing the driver upwards or downward. Some drivers can be, others can't (we you can, it just isn't good). I beleive that it depends on how stiff their suspension is.

I was assuming that you were going to have the round columns and the drivers mounted horizontally within them, similar to a sonotube sub. But, I think you've got other plans. How do you plan on constructing the subs?

Whether it is better to have 1 - 18" sub versus 2 - 15" subs comes down the the specific drivers used and your budget. Currently, I think the SoundSplinter RL-p15 is the best value when judged on a Volumn/$$ basis. It is also a really good driver, and therefore frequently recommended. The TC2000 is very similar, but costs a few $$ more. I'm not as familiar with the 18" drivers currently on the market. I beleive there is the Mach18 which is cheeper and not as good. TC has some really expensive 18" drivers, which I'm sure are great if you have the budget.

Thanks for clarifying that.

My sub enclosures are rectangle in shape standing up to 75" high, 12" deep and 24" wide face. The subs will be mounted on the 24" wide face. These tall enclosures are going to slide into the columns against the walls of my theater. I have these enclosure at the mid points of the 4 walls (I had read a few times that this was optimum placement) both subs to be mounted on the bottom half of the enclosure. Should there be any concern of the rear of the driver being so close to the back of the enclosure? Those SoundSplinters look kind of deep.

Thanks
Bob

[dlneubec]

Thanks for clarifying that.

My sub enclosures are rectangle in shape standing up to 75" high, 12" deep and 24" wide face. The subs will be mounted on the 24" wide face. These tall enclosures are going to slide into the columns against the walls of my theater. I have these enclosure at the mid points of the 4 walls (I had read a few times that this was optimum placement) both subs to be mounted on the bottom half of the enclosure. Should there be any concern of the rear of the driver being so close to the back of the enclosure? Those SoundSplinters look kind of deep.

Thanks
Bob

Hi Bob,

I'm not a subwoofer guru by any means, but it seems to me that one thing you are forefitting with your plan is flexible placement of the sub(s) for best natural performance in room covering the seating area.

With fixed positions, I guess you hope to try an EQ a good response over your general seating area?

[Family Guy]

Hi Bob,

I'm not a subwoofer guru by any means, but it seems to me that one thing you are forefitting with your plan is flexible placement of the sub(s) for best natural performance in room covering the seating area.

With fixed positions, I guess you hope to try an EQ a good response over your general seating area?

Hey Dan, your probably right, the only thing that is in my favor is the screen wall I have full movement and the rear and side walls I have 4 foot intervals for different placement. I figured I'd start with the middle points of the 4 walls and test from there.

As for EQ's I've noticed alot of guys here are using the Behringer gear. Is this the hot setup or should I be looking elsewhere?

Bob

[Wilk]

He says up at the top of the thread he is looking at running dual 15"s from 4 different locations.

Wouldn't that be a little simpler to EQ than the standard 1 or 2 subs placed in optimum locations?

Shouldn't mulitple locations at different depths of the room help fill in any bad nulls that he gets from the room itself?

[crackyflipside]

He says up at the top of the thread he is looking at running dual 15"s from 4 different locations.

Wouldn't that be a little simpler to EQ than the standard 1 or 2 subs placed in optimum locations?

Shouldn't mulitple locations at different depths of the room help fill in any bad nulls that he gets from the room itself?

It will help him out to have more than one location, but the odds are that he will not have a perfectly flat FR and is bound to have at least one or two bad dips/peaks.

[Mark Seaton]

You have more than enough volume to do some serious damage with some healthy power. When you say you have friends who don't think you can beat a commercial sub, do you mean a home theater/consumer subwoofer, or a pro-audio cinema subwoofer? Either way it won't matter, you should handily out-perform what most sane people are used to.

I would strongly recommend the Behringer DCX2496 over the DEQ2496 for this sort of install with the multiple sub locations. You can probably run them all identically, but it's nice to have the option of separating things if you get any surprises. My own experience would suggest the location flexibility you have should work well in that the problems from any one location should compliment the others nicely.

8 cu.ft x 4 locations gives you lots of total volume for a sealed sub with a good bit of power. I took a quick guesstimate at specs for the announced TC-1000 15" woofer, and with some EQ and maybe 500W+ per driver, 8 or more of them would have plenty of capability to scare people. With the intro price you could probably afford 2-4 nice amps to drive the whole array.

You're biggest task will be securing the boxes in the columns! h:

[Family Guy]

Thanks for the tip Mark, oddly enough I had ordered the DCX2496 about 8 months ago due to a recommedation on this board, it was on back order but I just got a notice a few days ago saying there in stock and there shipping my backorder.

The TC subs look damn impressive, I'm up in the air w/ the sub selection right now, I was thinking I'd order the SoundSplinters and make a test enclosure. For the amp department I was eyeballing the EP2500 due to cost, at the same time I dont want to cut my self short, maybe the Crown K2's?I figured I purchase 4 amps to drive the 8 subs to give it plenty of headroom. I also currently own 2-7 channel Sherbourn amps to handle my seven channels.

As for my friends, they are in the business and sold me all of my equipment in my previous theater, mostly consisting of Triad. They think its nuts to even try to build anything. Its been an ongoing argument for quite some time now, I cant wait to shut them up.

Bob

[---k---]

Mark is the expert, so I'm not going to argue with him.

Behringer gear is sold, and a great value. It is by no means the best gear if cost is no option. For amps, they are a good value. If fan noise will be an issue, by all means get the K2. It is just so much more expensive. I've seen Mark also recommend the QSC 1850HD model - I guess the HD models give a bit more down low grunt. But, if you're amps are going to be in a separate room, and if you're going to have four of them, the value of the EP2500 can't be beat.

The DEQ is a nice piece of gear. It works well, but has a little bit of a learning curve. Velodyne has a nice unit from the simplicity point of view, but it is no where near as flexible and costs a lot more. Mark loves and has installed in a couple custom jobs the QSC DSP to do EQ and LT. I have not experienced with it. I think it will have an even bigger learning curve, but hey with your install pay to fly Mark out to your place and you're friends will be crying when they hear your system.

As for the driver selection, I think with 8 of them, you may be starting to split hairs. 8 TC1000s will probably be sufficient to scare you, but 8 TC2000 or RL-p15 D2 (They are very very similar, so don't stress between the two, buy whichever is in stock) will be a step closer to "The Ultimate". It just comes down to if you want a sub that makes you giggle like a school boy all day long, or one that makes you giggle and know that you couldn't have done any better.

[WillyD]

What Mark said. Those TC-1000s are an incredible deal. Its a no-brainer IMO. About 31liters of linear displacement for under $1400 shipped.

The TC-2K and the Rl-p15 are driver to driver undoubtedly better, but I don't see why 8 of them would really impress him much more ...but they'd certainly cost more. He'd be better off spending the money saved on quality amps and EQ.

[Hdale85]

But he does want his buddies to be awe struck...

[WillyD]

I don't see why 8 15" TC-1Ks wouldn't accomplish that.

[Mark Seaton]

But he does want his buddies to be awe struck...

To the outside observer, they will look pretty similar, and given the space he has to work with, he'd be better off buying more TC-1000s and a little more power vs. throwing a bunch more power at somewhat better, but almost certainly less sensitive drivers. I'd be quite surprised if the 15" was not the same motor used on the 10" & 12", which makes expected T/S parameters not that much of a stretch to guess at. With a little more power per driver and EQ, you could still fit the 15s in ~75L and go to 3 drivers per location which would be a much bigger/better performance gain than the higher excursion models. At least in my oppinion. Why use 8 when you can fit 12? :T

[Family Guy]

To the outside observer, they will look pretty similar, and given the space he has to work with, he'd be better off buying more TC-1000s and a little more power vs. throwing a bunch more power at somewhat better, but almost certainly less sensitive drivers. I'd be quite surprised if the 15" was not the same motor used on the 10" & 12", which makes expected T/S parameters not that much of a stretch to guess at. With a little more power per driver and EQ, you could still fit the 15s in ~75L and go to 3 drivers per location which would be a much bigger/better performance gain than the higher excursion models. At least in my oppinion. Why use 8 when you can fit 12? :T

Wow, 12 subs would be quite impressive and I dont usually do anything simple. Assuming I do 12 TC1000s 3 per enclosure should it be a common chamber and will ths K2's be suffice?

Bob

[Paul W]

Be sure to brace the enclosures extremely well. Proper bracing can make all the difference between simply "loud" and truly excellent sound quality.

High quality bass will cause your friends jaws to hit the floor.

[---k---]

Yeah, those boxes are going to need to be stout.

BTW, 12???? Trying to give Thomas a run for his money? You've seen his 12 driver IB, right?

[Family Guy]

Yeah, those boxes are going to need to be stout.

BTW, 12???? Trying to give Thomas a run for his money? You've seen his 12 driver IB, right?

Hell no...
From what I understand an IB is the ultimate make you want to puke BASS. I just want to take the breathe away from a few certain people and possible make them loose there lunch. I have oddly enough a big group of friends that have fairly respectable theaters. I used to be the TOP GUN of the group up til last year. Now I'm just regaing my title w/ a little extra cushion.

Although I would'nt mind having Thomas come on out here and dial this thing in for me ;x(

Bob

[crackyflipside]

12 drivers in a sealed enclosure will definitely make your amigos puke bass.

Edit: 12 drivers in any alignment will definitely make your amigos puke bass. :T

[Family Guy]

Hey guys I just noticed the specs on the TS1000 15" sub are released. It says an enclosure of 3.9 cu. ft. is needed, so does that throw out the poss. of putting 3 of these in 8 cu. ft.?? Should I just stick w/ the SS or the TS2000/TS3000 and put 2 in?

Also I was thinking of buying some test equipment, a friend of mine recommended a Goldline DSP-30 CIW, is anyone familiar w/ this equipment?

Thanks
Bob

[WillyD]

I've been modeling them this morning and it looks like you'd be pushing it with 75liters per/driver (2.66ft^3) and a decent amount of fill. Certainly not ideal. The TC-9 for $190 is another story, as it likes smaller boxes so it would be more ideal.

Or you could switch back to the Rl-p 15, since they have a nice Q in 75liters.

[Family Guy]

Thanks for the input Willy. I was on Tc's website and they dont list the TC9's. Is this a new model?

[WillyD]

Here is the link:

http://www.tcsounds.com/tc9.htm

[Family Guy]

Thanks for the link, however I did notice the the 18mm Xmax compared to the 28-30mm Xmax of the TC2000 and 3000. Is it safe to say that 2 TC2000 could outperform 3 TC9's? Sorry for all the questions, just want to make sure I make all the right decisions.

Bob

[WillyD]

Is it safe to say that 2 TC2000 could outperform 3 TC9's? Sorry for all the questions, just want to make sure I make all the right decisions.

No, the 3 TC9's would outperform the two TC2ks.

And I am just throwing my opinion out there. The rest of these guys here know a lot more about this stuff than me.

[Mark Seaton]

In a 4cu.ft. sealed box, the TC-2k and TC-1k have very minor differences in response. The differences that cost money are the 3" VC and the better suspension and basket which allow more mechancial headroom. If you're going to give the dual drivers per column more than say 500W/driver, there is some obvious advantage to the 2k in a 1-1 comparison. It's up to you if the added cost is worth it. Even the 3x TC-1k ends up at $100 less per column that can go toward amplification and measurement gear. The 3x TC-1k is about the same output/Watt below 25Hz as the 2x TC-2k, with 1-3dB more per Watt above 35Hz, and of course the 3 drivers will be moving less per SPL output.

The benefit of the dual driver option is lowered Fb and Qb and a little less EQ required.

On the measurement gear, the Gold Line unit is not what you want. Either TrueRTA or the free REQW paired with an external mic & pre are better for what you want to do. Having the measurement equipment and the adjustments possible will prove to have a bigger impact on the final sound than the differences we are talking about between the different driver options.