At what price point?

[digital desire]

In retail speakers do you begin to see crossover components of the caliber that are used in the mission accomplished section?
I have never had the opportunity to look inside higher end or even middle of the road decent speakers.
I have seen the inside of some mid 80's bose towers, and the difference is staggering. I know the "looks" of a crossover does not equal performance, but in general there has to be a trend.
Would a set of $2000 paradigms have caps the diameter of beer cans?
I am curious because of a recent problem I had with a crossover in my center channel speaker that was radiating some serious magnetic disturbances....
Are crossovers in higher end center channel speakers shielded in some capacity?
Sorry if it seems like jibber jabber, but I am very curious! :P

[Chris7]

Would a set of $2000 paradigms have caps the diameter of beer cans?

Definitely not. At that price point, Paradigm uses electrolytics for anything with a large value, even in their Reference line. Here's the page advertising the quality of the crossover components in their reference line:

http://www.paradigm.ca/Website/R&D/RandD/DesignComponents/RefCrossovers.html

They say they use all film caps in the "signal path", but you can see an electrolytic cap in the picture. The standard line obviously uses more electrolytics.

BTW, this is one of the few websites where I see people regularly using huge film caps half the size of beer cans. No problem with it, of course, but you can get the same sound by using an electrolytic and then bypassing it properly with smaller film caps.

Are crossovers in higher end center channel speakers shielded in some capacity?

Not usually, it usually isn't a problem.

[Dennis H]

Revel is generally considered to be a 'good' brand. Here (from their web page) is the XO for the $15K Ultima Salon. Electrolytic caps and steel-core coils? Booooooo......

[digital desire]

Wow. Still, as crossovers go, that one looks pretty damn complicated!
Now I have to look up the Revel line, thanks!

[tyler]

Revel is generally considered to be a 'good' brand. Here (from their web page) is the XO for the $15K Ultima Salon. Electrolytic caps and steel-core coils? Booooooo......

I agree.
It really makes you wonder what you could build with a budget like that for yourself. 8O

[Hdale85]

I would say that with 15 grand you probably couldn't spend that amount on the components to build your ultimate towers.... Maybe if you build 7 of them for a 7 channel system :B It would be hard I would think....

[joecarrow]

I think that if I was spending 15 grand on materials for a system, it would take me an afternoon and a pot of coffee just to dream up how to spend it all. Of course, anything much more than what I have now would be overkill for my present apartment- so I guess I'd use $2k for upgrades, and $13k towards a down payment on a house with a room suitable for critical listening.

[cjd]

I'll sell ya mine for 15k... And $13k is a down payment on a house?! Where!!

C

[joecarrow]

No, I said "towards a down payment on a house"- around here, I think I'd need three times that to have any luck.

Actually- the suburbs where I grew up still has its share of houses in the $100k range. Good place to raise a family, not the best place for me right now.

[Hdale85]

Pittsburgh has a bunch of houses under 100k :B Might be fixer uppers though.

[Licinius]

I'm always blown away by house prices in various places... especially watching things like tlc/hgtv and junk like that... HUGE brick castle looking things on a bajillion acres for 300k... and then here in Reno 300k buys you a pos dive thats gonna take another 50 to make into anything you'll be ok with spending that much money on. Ugh. And there is seriously a point of diminishing returns up there in the 1k per speaker range for me! =)

[joecarrow]

I agree with the point of diminishing returns on the speakers- but I think it's somewhat higher if you include cabinet construction. I can see spending $600 on a woofer or two, $200 on a midrange, and $200 on a tweeter, then $500 on crossover parts. That's fairly extravagant, I think- and only $1,000 per speaker. Sure you could spend more, but the gains are fairly esoteric at that point, unless you just want to go louder and lower.

After $1k in parts, I don't think $500 in cabinet materials is that unreasonable. After that, I think you could have a speaker that would live up to an amplifier and source of the utmost quality. Most of us don't have amps, SACD, DVD-A, or CD players that would really do that kind of speaker justice.

I say that for most people, speakers are the weak link in the chain of sound reproduction. After $1.5k per speaker in optimal DIY conditions, it starts to be nontrivial to find electronics that will keep it that way.

I think that the whole point of this thread was the problem of crossover component quality. Sorry, my coffee really didn't get me revved up to the point of staying on topic.

[TacoD]

I say that for most people, speakers are the weak link in the chain of sound reproduction. After $1.5k per speaker in optimal DIY conditions, it starts to be nontrivial to find electronics that will keep it that way.

I totally agree.

Back on topic.

Burrmester, Sonus Faber, Peak Consult, Tidel, Gryphon, JM-lab and Kharma use very expensive x-overs.

JMLab Grande Utopia Beryllium


Burrmester


Sonus Faber


Gryphon


Peak Consult

[digital desire]

THAT'S what I am talking about!
Something you would have trouble going through airport security with!
*Shudders* What do the speakers that go with those sell for, in round numbers?

[TacoD]

Between 20.000 - 100.000 US dollar. Those Duelund Caps (PeakConsult) are very expensive (100 - 300 dollar a piece).

[BigJim_inFLA]

Here's what $1800.00 got you in the early 1990's. This is from a Klipsch Chorus II 3 way. Your thread got me curious so I pulled it out to take a look. The whole thing is only about 4.5" by 5.5". I was shocked at how small everything is, electrolytic caps, small guage inductors...

[cobbpa]

In most of the pictures supplied with multiple inductors, they're all facing the same way. Isn't that violating the 7th commandment of speaker building?

[tktran]

The flip side of the coin...

I can't remember where I read this, but I recall reading a interview with a speaker designer, and when asked about boutique passive crossover parts, said something along the lines of (and I paraphrase, grossly)

'Remember, we're in the business of selling high end speakers.'
Our engineering design team are very good, but whatever else helps sells speakers, we'll entertain. Some customers don't like standard crossover components or internal wiring, and want high-end or expensive crossover parts and brand name wiring. It may not sound any better, but it might help sell speakers to people who are concerned about it. We're happy to oblige. It helps sales, causes no harm, and in the grand scheme of things (cabinets, drivers, labour) doesn't really cost us that much more'

Anyway, just because there 6 dozen crossover parts or super expensive brand-name parts in it, (compared to standard wire-wounds, polyproplyene caps or even electrolytics for that matter), does not necessarily mean the designer thought it was necessary, nor desired.

It may be just there to help sell speakers. This is particularly important in the high-end market, where buyers are particularly fussy. You know the type who pay $XXX for 8ft of silver/teflon/unobtainium uber external speaker wire, but forget that it's in series with 100+ft of tiny 28 gauge solid copper wire in the voice coil of the driver?

Since these manufacturers purchase passive crossover parts in the hundreds/thousands, they are extremely cheap. To us it might be retail each at $300, and we drool over them, but the buy price is usually a fraction of that. (1/10-1/100, depending on quantity purchased)

I can't tell you where I work, but we import, distribute (wholesale), do trade accounts, as well as retail sales for caps, inductors, resistors, and general semiconductors.

Call me a cynic, but do you think they really care if the arrangement of their inductors causes mutual coupling? eg. Gryphon crossover.
I see the purpose of cost cutting techniques for mass-market, low cost consumer items, like the Polk, but considering the total cost of the Revel system (very high), and how many they sell every year (very little), how much extra profit do you really think they made by switching those 5 caps to electrolytics?

[JonMarsh]

Not with any reasonable distance spacing. Note my other recent posts on this topic...

[JonMarsh]

Here's what $1800.00 got you in the early 1990's. This is from a Klipsch Chorus II 3 way. Your thread got me curious so I pulled it out to take a look. The whole thing is only about 4.5" by 5.5". I was shocked at how small everything is, electrolytic caps, small guage inductors...

Hey, they're in it to make money, so a dime spent more than they think they need for the target market and performance is money wasted. Go look at at Polk Audio crossover some time... of course, Dennis Murphy has found too that you can significantly improve some of these speakers with a better crossover design. But their target market may not notice the difference in a typical audio shop.

[Hank]

The point about the Revel is NOT to be impressed by the complexity, but to notice the electrolytics. Also, look at that flaky-wound inductor in the lower left-hand corner.
Yes, inductors in the same plane close together are a no-no.
Electrolytics, even bypassed, IMHO, are a no-no. High dielectric apsorption, aging of the electrolyte, dielectric hysteresis, which makes for high THD at low frequencies, etc.

[Dennis H]

Yeah, what Hank said. The Salon is a 4-way, 7-driver speaker, with 3 response-contouring switches on the back. So, of course, it's going to be a complicated XO. And I have no doubt, given their stated design goals, that the Revel engineers do a good job of optimizing the on and off-axis response to the target LR4 acoustic. But, like Jon said, they are in the business to make money and they use butt-cheap components when they think they can get away with it. Stereophile doesn't tear the speakers apart to look at XO components and most consumers looking at that XO on their web page don't realize all those pretty purple caps are electrolytics that suck bigtime.

[jonathanb3478]

Here's what $1800.00 got you in the early 1990's. ... The whole thing is only about 4.5" by 5.5". I was shocked at how small everything is, electrolytic caps, small guage inductors...

I am now feeling decidedly ill...

ops:

[joecarrow]

I am now feeling decidedly ill...

ops:

Hey, that's part of why we DIY, right? :T

[---k---]

Attached is the crossover from a $550 Ascend 340SE. Sorry about the washed out photo. The crossover doesn't come out easily. It felt like there was was a component on the backside, but not sure. Oddly, it has a toggle switch. I'm guessing it is to turn on or off the part of the crossover in the center channels to attempt to compensate for baffle step while sitting on top of a TV.

Any thoughts from the experts on the comparison of an ID brand to retai speakers?

[BigJim_inFLA]

I am now feeling decidedly ill...

ops:

Imagine how I feel, I bought them. :cry:

[cjd]

Ooh, I coulda upgraded and still been under the $1800 mark.

C

[JonMarsh]

The point about the Revel is NOT to be impressed by the complexity, but to notice the electrolytics. Also, look at that flaky-wound inductor in the lower left-hand corner.
Yes, inductors in the same plane close together are a no-no.
Electrolytics, even bypassed, IMHO, are a no-no. High dielectric apsorption, aging of the electrolyte, dielectric hysteresis, which makes for high THD at low frequencies, etc.

I am SO totally with you on this one, Senor Hank...

Yet they do a better job than 90% of the guys out there, at LEAST!

Note that Avalon appears to be using low ESR construction caps, the types with tab & plates to get the lowest resistance connection to the foils- typically used in switching power supplies, where this is critical.

Here they are testing and matching components, just curious which sand cast resistors they're using...



Assembling a crossover by hand...



No photo's of completed crossovers; the orignal Avalon crossovers were works of art, but expensive and located outside the cabinet. I hope they haven't cut corners shrinking them down to fit inside the box.

[JonP]

Hey, they're in it to make money, so a dime spent more than they think they need for the target market and performance is money wasted.

Oh Yes... Most people don't appreciate the cost reduction thinking in mass produced items. Say you sell 100,000 units over the lifetime of the product, if you save 10 cents on just one part, that's $10,000 more dollars you've made.

It all adds up.

Of course, DIY'ers are completely on the other side of the spectrum in this, so we can go for the heigths of performance. (or is that "go for broke"??)